Heretic RC1 [spoily]

General discussion about anything related to Transcendence.
george moromisato
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Atarlost wrote:Denial of free will is one thing. I also read through the plot related XML.
line 3944 of Heretic.xml doesn't exactly cast Domina in a good light.

Assuming the Ancient races are capable of pursuing a train of thought for longer than a Kender this is a problem.

Let's assume the defeated guardian AI is a reliable narrator. It could be programmed with false data, but that would require the Iocrym to plan on it being captured, something that doesn't fit their character as I percieve it.

The blocade is then neccessary to contain Oracus. Domina has both engineered the extermination of humanity and is actively helping humanity break the blocade that holds of the extinction of the ancient races. By pointing you at the archive Domina is making it more likely the quarantine will break and that the sterilisation project she devised will be stopped. This does not make sense.

The two conclusions that best fit in my mind are that either Domina is not the one who founded the sisters and called you but rather Oracus impersonating Domina, or Domina does not expect you to succeed in breaking the quarantine and is toying with you. The former is unlikely since the Sisters and the Penitants work at cross purposes, unless the Penitants are a front for some other being, possibly Domina, trying to discredit Oracus. This is well into crazy conspiracy theory territory and so I discard it. I might entertain it in reality, but fiction is subject to stricter beleivability constraints. The remaining rasonable option is that Domina is a sadist. That only requires that the ancient races not "evolve beyond" fleshly foibles and not care about lesser races.
I started another thread on general plot bugs, but I thought I might respond to this here, if no one minds.

First of all, not all narrators in Transcendence are reliable, but I agree that it's implausible for the AI to be lying or for its knowledge be planted. And I also don't want the plot to hinge on crazy conspiracies or convoluted misdirection.

But I think there are a couple of other possibilities and I'd love to hear whether you all think they are plausible enough:

1. The Iocrym AI did say that they did not expect the quarantine to last forever. Isn't it plausible that the scientists at Heretic would have broken the quarantine eventually, even without the player's help? In that case, then Domina did not really affect the quarantine that much.

2. Does the quarantine have to be perfect? Perhaps exterminating 99% of humanity is enough to foil Oracus's plan. In fact, it would be implausible otherwise. So allowing a few pilgrims to escape would not harm Domina's greater plan.

3. There is a difference between buying a gun to kill a potential intruder and actually pulling the trigger. Perhaps the Iocrym (Domina?) are preparing to exterminate humanity just in case, but have other less drastic options as well.

4. Perhaps it is impossible to tell Oracus and Domina apart. Let's assume that Domina and Oracus communicate via some kind of projection of consciousness. The ideas that they want to convey appear in your mind. Maybe there is no way to tell who planted the idea (unless they told you--but then they could lie).

5. Is it plausible that Domina is not a perfect predictor of the future? In that case, it is possible that the actions of the player will result in outcomes that Domina did not expect.
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george moromisato wrote:But I think there are a couple of other possibilities and I'd love to hear whether you all think they are plausible enough:

1. The Iocrym AI did say that they did not expect the quarantine to last forever. Isn't it plausible that the scientists at Heretic would have broken the quarantine eventually, even without the player's help? In that case, then Domina did not really affect the quarantine that much.

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...? I'm not sure if I follow this one...
2. Does the quarantine have to be perfect? Perhaps exterminating 99% of humanity is enough to foil Oracus's plan. In fact, it would be implausible otherwise. So allowing a few pilgrims to escape would not harm Domina's greater plan.

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Well, what would Oracus's plan be then? (IE, how could we tell if it was plausible or not?)... And once gate at Heretic is opened, Oracus could get out and use some other race.
3. There is a difference between buying a gun to kill a potential intruder and actually pulling the trigger. Perhaps the Iocrym (Domina?) are preparing to exterminate humanity just in case, but have other less drastic options as well.

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Those options were never talked about, since the player has to go with the stuff in the game, and it seemed rather absolute by the in-game text.
4. Perhaps it is impossible to tell Oracus and Domina apart. Let's assume that Domina and Oracus communicate via some kind of projection of consciousness. The ideas that they want to convey appear in your mind. Maybe there is no way to tell who planted the idea (unless they told you--but then they could lie).

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Well, this one leads into that conspiracy territory you were hoping to avoid. If this were the case, well, the plot line would become such a mess that it wouldn't be much of a plotline (Assuming Domina and Oracus are both rational enough to manipulate everyone to counter the maneuvers of the other to the point everyone is just a pawn in something akin to one of those movies that are impossible to follow)
5. Is it plausible that Domina is not a perfect predictor of the future? In that case, it is possible that the actions of the player will result in outcomes that Domina did not expect.

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Hmmm... Well, then why did Domina send for the pilgrims in the first place?
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Once the quarantine is busted it's busted. Everybody's in Heretic studying the quarantine and except for Sister Miryam it's not solely for the benefit of a few pilgrims. Once the quarantine is down I would expect humans and neohumans to pour out of the quarantine zone. And the Ringers and Ares Orthodoxy have Iocrym killing weapons in deployment and the Commonwealth has one nearly ready for deployment. The quarantine can't be restored unless the human factions continue squabbling amongst eachother, something they're likely to stop when the scientists report the AI data. The prospect of extinction has the tendancy to make intraspecies conflict less urgent.
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Atarlost wrote:Once the quarantine is busted it's busted. Everybody's in Heretic studying the quarantine and except for Sister Miryam it's not solely for the benefit of a few pilgrims. Once the quarantine is down I would expect humans and neohumans to pour out of the quarantine zone. And the Ringers and Ares Orthodoxy have Iocrym killing weapons in deployment and the Commonwealth has one nearly ready for deployment. The quarantine can't be restored unless the human factions continue squabbling amongst eachother, something they're likely to stop when the scientists report the AI data. The prospect of extinction has the tendancy to make intraspecies conflict less urgent.
This too. I wouldn't be surprised if there was a mass exodus as well. (followed by either some sort of attainment of the knowledge of what's really going on, or though *pew*pew* laser fight)
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Here follows my initial experience with heretic until the battle with the Iocrym (which I haven't beat just yet).

Ptaravores: AAAAAAAAAAARGH. I hate the little buggers. This is an awesome enemy.

The minigame is quite clever, it took me a while to figure this out, but:
Conceptual solution: The more damaged the brain is, the faster its resistance goes down. However, the more virus you input, the quicker it adapts to the virus and you have to use more. It is trivial to bring the damage back to 10 very quickly. Therefore, you need to find a balance between maximum brain damage, and minimum virus input.
Full solution: increase virus to 1. The brain damage will increase to 50. Hold the damage steady at 50 until you see the left and right red arrows. This means the reistance is about to fail so you need to let down your virus and bring the damage down to 10. You don't need to get there right away, so let it of semi-slowly. We *don't* want it to start repairing. Once you have it at 10, your virus count should be larger than the resistance count, at which point you simply have to hold damage between 8 and 10.
The xenophobe mission can be made very easy using a known exploit: The AI has an unwillingness to shoot each other, but simultanious desire to swarm you. You can then blow up the ark as desired. This is a bug in the AI that's been around for a while that I would like to see fixed.

At first I had a lot of trouble defending the stations. Although I had Lamplighter and an unenhanced Tailkon 200, my ship felt very lightly armed against these ships (a good thing IMO). The attacks got very difficult very quicly, even with the best weapon in the game (lamplighter), and a large load of green strelkas. This was very demoralizing, but only because I thought I *needed* some of these stations to survive. I didn't know that the sentinels will never attack the researchers on the Iocrym station. A plot explanation for this would be nice, as well as some reason to believe that you won't loose the iocrym research base (a large company of foot-soldiers for instance).

I then realized my best bet was to make sure that I did only the very easiest and shortest missions. This means the neurohack one for sure (it takes up very little game time), and then whatever other easy one I could do (the xenophobe one with the exploit is definitely fast, but its an exploit and I should try others).

I agree that it is really annoying that the game doesn't suggest you look up the locations of the stations beforehand. Perhaps a system map rom should be given to the player?

After retrieving the Sisters and Xenophobe data, they shut off the star-modifiers. You only need to complete 3 missions (including the initial pteravore-protection one) to suceed.

Something which was unclear to me was that you didn't need to kill yourself upon loosing some/all the stations, or even the research ship. If you complete the neurohack and petavore missions, then the idea of mass-slaughter of the sentinels is not revealed to you untill all the reasearch stations are destroyed (at which point you feel utterly defeated, and don't think to talk to Kate about it). Perhaps Kate should mention hunting sentenals earlier, or perhaps destroying an Iocrym station, but still suggest doing missions, because they are faster, and probably easier than hunting for roms. Perhaps add a line to Kate's inital request to get missions from the research stations like: "We'll figure this out eventually, whatever else happens."

I then engaged the Iocrym command ship in battle (but died). I will probably have more on that later.
1. The Iocrym AI did say that they did not expect the quarantine to last forever. Isn't it plausible that the scientists at Heretic would have broken the quarantine eventually, even without the player's help? In that case, then Domina did not really affect the quarantine that much.
No, but she has sent many pilgrims to try. This makes me believe that domina (or oracus impersonating domina) really, really wants the quarantine broken.

If the being responsible for the pilgrims doesn't really want the quarantine broken, then that being is sadistic, and enjoys using power for its own sake.

Therefore, either Domina is very, very evil, or this option is untrue.
2. Does the quarantine have to be perfect? Perhaps exterminating 99% of humanity is enough to foil Oracus's plan. In fact, it would be implausible otherwise. So allowing a few pilgrims to escape would not harm Domina's greater plan.
It could be that Domina wants most of humanity to die. However, wouldn't it have been easier to send the Iocrym to wipe most of us out the first time?
3. There is a difference between buying a gun to kill a potential intruder and actually pulling the trigger. Perhaps the Iocrym (Domina?) are preparing to exterminate humanity just in case, but have other less drastic options as well.
If the being behind the Iocrym's actions is the same as the being behind the actions of the pilgrims, then this is the only solution that I can see.
4. Perhaps it is impossible to tell Oracus and Domina apart. Let's assume that Domina and Oracus communicate via some kind of projection of consciousness. The ideas that they want to convey appear in your mind. Maybe there is no way to tell who planted the idea (unless they told you--but then they could lie).
This is what my mind instantly thinks is going on here, and what I think is most likely. Compare Heretic.xml 2957 with 3913 and 3944. Is the Iocrym following Oracus, or the Humans? If the Iocrym are with oracus then.

This places everyone on two very neatly separated sides, the side quarantining and getting rid of humanity, like the penitents, and the side trying to escape the Iocrym's quarantine. This is the simplest answer.

Since the Iocrym have been around longer, it is more likely that they know the truth. Therefore I come up with this model:

Domina wants to foil Oracus, so she tells the Iocrym to buy her some time by instituting the quarantine. Next she tries to get rid of Oracus' main weapon, which is, apparantly, humans. However, she doesn't want to just kill the lot of them, so she decides that population control is the best idea. She isn't killing anyone any more than you would say someone killed chickens by destroying unfertalized eggs. She isn't destroying life, just the potential for it.

Oracus wants the destruction of everything. Since for some reason is is largely confined to controlling only humans, he needs them to expand. To this end he starts up the Sisters of Domina (an ironic touch to the name) to send pilgrims to the core. Once humanity has expanded enough, Oracus can turn humanity in on itself.

EDIT: @ Atarlost. A way to think of the Penitients without someone playing both sides is this:

Domina sets them up as a voluntary suicide organization to appeal to humanity's good side. Kill yourself and spare everyone death and destruction. When that doesn't go over very well, she converts the penitents to an organization that kills some others as well. However, penitents don't leave their stations very often (and thus still don't kill very many others, yet), so Domina may be planning the penitents as a tertiary backup plan (after sterilization). Give them more advanced dark acid weaponry and try to destroy humanity from the inside-out, or at least give the Iocrym an opportunity to do so. Otherwise, Domina will dismantle the penitents if sterilization works. This means that, aside from Oracus impersonating domina (which is quite in character for him), all the story lines up.

The only thing that is inconsistent is the penitents having a power named "Oracus Harass" (never mentioned in-game), which would have to be supplied by Domina.
5. Is it plausible that Domina is not a perfect predictor of the future? In that case, it is possible that the actions of the player will result in outcomes that Domina did not expect.
Absoulutely, but even then Domina must have some sort of goal. The question here is what is the nature of that goal and what is Domina willing/able to do to achieve that goal. Domina must have some productive (even if that just is to satisfy sadism) reason to send you towards the core and help you along the way.
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F50, Sterilise applied to a region doesn't mean make everyone infertile. It means make everyone dead. And that's what a supernova would do. These aren't low levels of radiation that make people infertile, those aren't reliable. A supernova strong enough to produce infertility at the far reaches of the quarantine zone will kill allmost everyone in the zone very dead, and won't get everryone anyhow. Some people are on ships with very heavy armor or behind shields that block radiation. Some people are on planetary surfaces. Some people are in tin cans. The radiation is limited to C and ships can use stargates so once the supernova is known to have occured there will be an exodus away from it to the limits of the gate network. At that range if anyone can survive at all the people crowded on CSCs, Ranx DNs, Phobos DNs, and possibly Aquilla cruisers, Diemos Destroyers, and any stations that have high grade Hexphase or Tharsis armor slapped onto them won't even notice the radiation.

If mass infertility is ruled out by the inverse square law you're left with mass death as the only possible interpretation of sterilise.
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Well, the entire idea of trying to use a supernova as a weapon of genocide doesn't even make sense. Why?

1) you'd have to have a stupidly huge star in order to achieve this... Rigel is nice and plump, but it's not Rigel, it's the further Heretic star, and even then, Rigel isn't that big... Heretic's star would have to be IMMENSE in order to wipe out all of the quarantine zone. We're talking about a star so large, it would probably be too massive to even exist as a star.

2) the shockwave travels too slowly (people can easily evacuate via stargates). By the time it reached anywhere, years would have passed, if not decades or centuries.

3) The dissipation of energy over the entire quarantine zone would be simply too great. You could huddle safely in its extremities and never be effected by it.

4) In-game fluff text + balance you experience would suppose that shielding is advanced enough to survive close to a live star already. (ie, being in a flare... Heliotrope cannon anyone? And that thing is pretty weak to late game shields. In theory, you could sit a system away from Heretic and happily ride out the storm... As long as you avoid those pesky pteravores).
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i think the difference between the ability to shield against and use star tech (thermo, plasma, etc) and an actual cosmic event is in the magnitude. i don't care how strong or advanced your armor is, if you're in the system when a star goes nova, you die - period. a nova blast outputs as much energy in a few seconds as smaller stars output throughout their entire lifetimes. even the most advanced species (type iii) would have a tough time dealing with that type of energy.
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1) you'd have to have a stupidly huge star in order to achieve this... Rigel is nice and plump, but it's not Rigel, it's the further Heretic star, and even then, Rigel isn't that big... Heretic's star would have to be IMMENSE in order to wipe out all of the quarantine zone.
As I understand it, Heretic's star is just being used as a containment field. There's another star, beyond the quarantine, that's going to be blown up to kill everyone, which could very well be stupidly huge.
That's not what sterilize means
Hmmm, that changes things quite a bit. I'll have to think about that.


Some more notes after I completed the game:

The sentinels are not as difficult as I initially thought, the trick is to attack their sides, not front or back, then thier shells open quite nicely (with lamplighter, that is). I chose the neurohack and ringer missions, which turned out quite nicely, since the ringer one can be very easily left behind for a moment to deal with an Iocrym attack. The only station I lost was the earth research station. The resiliance of the Tailkon and Ringer stations helps a lot. The fact that the Tailkon station was almost in an astroid field helped too ;)

The Iocrym Command ship itself is *much* easier that before. Its slower and bigger, which makes it much easier to hit from non-orthogonal directions. Its armor is easier to destroy since it is bigger and turns its most damaged (front) segment of armor towards you. The sentinels are a nice addition that makes you take a less boring strategy than simple bombardment. My only complaint is that its simply not dangerous to you if you can stay away from the sentinels. Most of its weapons don't have the range, and it can't really chase you down due to its speed.

It took me ~20 resurects to figure out heretic, ~7 to figure out Huramancara, ~6 to figure out the pteravores, ~3 to figure out the ferrians and another couple were due to mere foolishness. Ultimately then, heretic was difficult, but not too hard. The main thing IMO is to realize you don't need to save *all* (or most, or ultimately any) of the stations from the Iocrym.
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Using a single star to wipe out the quarantine zone systems would not work.
If you take the names of the star systems and find them in our real galaxy then the quarantine zone has a radius of over 150 ly. The stargates allow near instantaneous travel between systems and all the Iocrym need to do is destroy the Heretic gate. Without that, humans and all other quarantine-zone lifeforms would have to make an interstellar journey to ... somewhere. Obviously we, as the player, are aiming for the center of the Milky Way galaxy, a distance of 26000 light years.
I would assume then that the Iocrym are not just keeping us out, but keeping something in. (maybe Oracus?)
Following this line of thought (that it is in fact an extermination) a supernova would not be sufficient. It would take far too long to travel through the quarantine zone and there would be survivors.
I could see Elysium becoming an Iocrym War Base, sending out battle groups of ships, billions of drones being dropped onto every solid surface to systematically wipe out the infection.
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What if the star that is supposed to go nova is like Elysium in that it links to all of our star gates? Blow up that star with all of the gates on....perhaps that would work.
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Read a book not too long ago where their stargate-analogue devices turned out to be hideously explosive. That would be a good way to effect xenocide. Maybe the Iocrym need to isolate this branch of the stargate network before they can make it go boom, to avoid frying their own colonies or whatever?
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I finally reached Heretic yesterday in RC2. I attempted to escort to Svalbrad only to be promptly killed by Ptervores (not sure of spelling yet), which frankly I think are impossible to defend something against unless you clear the area ahead of time.

After I respawned courtesy of Insurance, little monsters still attached (yet I somehow survived), I resumed my exploration of the system and found a couple of stations. I visited the Domina station and did their minigame mission, only to fail miserably since I had no clue what was going on. Then I visited the Taikon station telling me where to find a bunch of Xenophobes, but since I was currently suffering from mauled armor courtesy of space squids, I decided to head back to the previous system and get my armor fixed before I attempted to engage any Xenophobes. After I returned, my tracking marker was gone and I couldn't really figure out what to do with the Xenophobes after that. I found a lot of fighters and a couple of Xenophobe star destroyers, but that was about it.

So I visited Domina again, did the contemplation thing and found some Iocrym stations on my map. I went to check those out, destroyed one, and started getting messages about stations being attacked. Most of the stations were destroyed before I could even reach them, let alone fend off any attacks. I tried to defend a few stations by sticking close to them while I waited for attackers, but inevitably they were all destroyed.

Now I'm flying around with Sentinels attacking me periodically, and Xenophobe fighters flying around randomly. Aside from upgrading my gear with stuff borrowed from slaughtered Iocrym baddies, I really have no idea what else to do. I've found virtually no plot-furthering information during my visit to Heretic, and I have no clue what everybody is talking about in the rest of this thread.
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the pteravores really aren't too difficult to deal with if you have a longreach autocannon, they are technically missiles so it will shoot at them, and all you have to do is keep a little distance and shoot off any that get to the svalbard.
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Aeonic wrote:I finally reached Heretic yesterday in RC2. I attempted to escort to Svalbrad only to be promptly killed by Ptervores (not sure of spelling yet), which frankly I think are impossible to defend something against unless you clear the area ahead of time.

After I respawned courtesy of Insurance, little monsters still attached (yet I somehow survived), I resumed my exploration of the system and found a couple of stations. I visited the Domina station and did their minigame mission, only to fail miserably since I had no clue what was going on. Then I visited the Taikon station telling me where to find a bunch of Xenophobes, but since I was currently suffering from mauled armor courtesy of space squids, I decided to head back to the previous system and get my armor fixed before I attempted to engage any Xenophobes. After I returned, my tracking marker was gone and I couldn't really figure out what to do with the Xenophobes after that. I found a lot of fighters and a couple of Xenophobe star destroyers, but that was about it.

So I visited Domina again, did the contemplation thing and found some Iocrym stations on my map. I went to check those out, destroyed one, and started getting messages about stations being attacked. Most of the stations were destroyed before I could even reach them, let alone fend off any attacks. I tried to defend a few stations by sticking close to them while I waited for attackers, but inevitably they were all destroyed.

Now I'm flying around with Sentinels attacking me periodically, and Xenophobe fighters flying around randomly. Aside from upgrading my gear with stuff borrowed from slaughtered Iocrym baddies, I really have no idea what else to do. I've found virtually no plot-furthering information during my visit to Heretic, and I have no clue what everybody is talking about in the rest of this thread.
Well, at this point, you just keep shooting the lobsters... you had to save ALL the stations to get the plot stuff.
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