Regarding the Antarctica question...

[JohnBWatson]

The game, at present, leaves whether Helios or Decker was correct fairly vague, with several pieces of evidence supporting both sides.

Support for Decker's conclusion

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• The Ares began the war with a nuclear attack on Earth, killing millions of civilians for no reason other than religious fervor. Religious extremists have a history of not seeking peaceful solutions.
• As an authoritarian society of clones, dissent within the Ares is doubly unlikely. Personality, after all, is largely genetic.
• The Ares are winning the war, and have little to gain from peace with the Commonwealth now.
• The proposal was sent at a critical moment during an operation requiring extreme coordination. It is extremely unlikely that the peace offer would have been sent at this time were it genuine. However, for an attempt to exploit weakness within the Fleet's ranks, it was timed perfectly.
• Helios's decision making is questionable at best, given that she chooses to fight to the death against the player/six Aquila class cruisers when a surrender would likely have been accepted. Regardless of whether this is caused by her ego or a feud with Decker, it indicates that her decision to betray the Fleet may not have been made logically.
• The Ares continue to attack and harass the player should they protect the Antarctica. The only change in their demeanor occurs in Heretic, which could just as easily be an attempt to get the player killed, exploitation of a source of free labor, or simply an attempt to get an extremely powerful potential threat to leave human space before it realizes it has been tricked and seeks retribution.
• The Ares have a history of using subversion within Fleet ranks to their own ends, if the suicide runs are anything to go on.
• The Ares have outposts set up towards the edge of the Outer Realm, which are of no defensive benefit to them. The only Fleet vessels in the region are hospital ships.
• Should a friendly fire incident occur between the Ares and the Antarctica, they will fight each other. Clearly, the Ares do not value Helios's friendship.
• The Ares are hostile towards the Ringers, who are Fleet trade partners but nothing more.
• *Should TSB be taken as canon, the Ares attack St. Katherine's star. This would be a clear indicator that they do not have peaceful intentions.*
• The Ares attack refugee convoys of absolutely no threat to them, preventing Commonwealth civilians from leaving the warzone. This shows extreme inhumanity and brutality, and, on a more pragmatic note, leaves Commonwealth interests in the Outer Realm, making it less likely for them to leave the region.

Support for Helios's conclusion

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• Should the Fleet campaign be taken as an allegory for the Crusades, and the attack on Earth for the slaughter of Christians at Mecca, a moderate did eventually take hold of the situation and make peace with the Catholic church despite being on the winning side at the time.
• The Ares offer the player the opportunity to help them with their research should they assist the Antarctica.
• The Ares do not actively attack the Antarctica.

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It is likely that the upcoming RTS, CSC America, will add information on the subject. In addition, future updates may expand on the content relating to this. Should they take one side or the other? Should either be Canon?

My personal belief is that evidence for either side should be randomly generated, adding to the game's roguelike roots. For example, in one game the Dantalion Ares could use a variation of Arco Vaugn's AI, and in another they could stop sending attack ships after the player after they save the Antarctica, but in yet another game they could step up their attacks on the Fleet should the player destroy their Aquilas, and in another the Antarctica could be/have been betrayed outright by the Ares, having decided Helios was no longer worth keeping around. This should, however, be limited to small things, and the truth as a whole should be left vague.

[sun1404]

I think it is mentioned in the game that only a small group of Ares sent the peace offering. It seems they plan on persuading the rest of Ares to peace, but requires a strong promise from the CW first. The CW-Ares war has had many phases. The Ares started the war, getting a large advantage in the way of an initiative nuclear attack. Then the CW gained the upper hand, forcing the Ares to flee human space of that time, with CW in hot pursuit. Then CW messed up somehow, the fleet becoming disorganized, more or less disconnected to the CW. From the scenario, both sides would see each other as aggressive and cruel. Peace would be impossible without someone of high importance from both sides cooperating.

So, though the events are similar to a scheming/exploitation scenario, it is also, I think, the only way to have a chance at peace.

[Song]

Keeping in mind that they've been at war (on and off) for more than a century now......I'd have to say that the gamble is pretty much the only thing that can bring peace without one side wiping the other out. And while both sides would (largely) love to do that (apart from the small factions in both that would like to end the war), neither of them really have the resources...if the Ares got too close to St. Katherine's you can bet that the commonwealth would re-arm, and while the Ares do have numerical superiority and better fielded technology....the commonweath (and the hierarchy) have vastly better stuff to adapt and field in an emergency. The gamble that Helios is taking is huge, but it's probably similar on the Ares side....a smaller faction that wants peace that's willing to risk their safety to try to negotiate it.


Also, you're confusing two wars for a single one. The Syrtian war was the original battle, in which Earth was nuked and mars was basically wiped out. The Ares then fled.

The Ares war is a newer war, that started after the Commonwealth and the resurgent Ares Orthodoxy encountered each other again during colonising efforts long after the Syrtian War, and didn't get on very well. It did not start with the nuking of earth.

Another important thing to keep in mind: the Ares Orthodoxy is a theocracy. Because of this, both wars are religious in nature.....the Ares are technically waging a war of extermination, and it's going about as well as you'd expect (not actually that well). Stuff like the attack on the convoys is part of that, although keep in mind that this is a large convoy of transport ships, of enemy designs, escorted by a wing of enemy fighters. Attacking them is actually fairly justified. Plus in older versions the convoys were heading towards the warzone, indicating either very stupid refugees, or that this was a cover story for shipping weapons or whatever. The suicide attacks on carriers are also fairly sensible....the CSCs allowed the commonwealth to turn the tide of the war and drive the ares back (building the 'Point' series of stations to support them). While the Ares have smashed almost all of the large bases (and several carriers), they're still tough nuts to crack, and have a massive reward for doing so, since they're still the center of commonwealth defenses....anything that hampers their operation is useful, and what better way to get a bomb close to it?

Although that being said, BlastExplosion4 is not a good explosion for an ares-built bomb. At all. You've got an entire captured scarab to work with, and you give it that? Not good munition design.

Some background info has some of the younger ares becoming dissatisfied with the old narratives they get fed...this may be the source of the peacemakers, or it might be a split in leadership.

[Atarlost]

The war is certainly not an allegory for the crusades. We know, rather, that they're based on C. J. Cherryth's Alliance-Union setting. Specifically Helios is Mallory and Decker is Mazian. But there's no Pell. Or rather, St. K is astrographically Pell, but in the war takes the role of Earth: a detached instigator that refuses to provide support. Without Pell and the Merchanter's Alliance (which also has no real equivalent) there's no basis for the peace that was negotiated in the material that inspired the Ares/CW conflict.

There are also cold war undertones. There is no indication in game that the Ares are a theocracy, but they do use the term commune for their nominally nonmilitary stations. The CW is NATO, the Sung are the PRC, the Ares are the USSR, the Huari are Korea or Tibet. Other stuff doesn't map, but it's more likely than your crusades allegory theory.

[Song]

The war is certainly not an allegory for the crusades. We know, rather, that they're based on C. J. Cherryth's Alliance-Union setting. Specifically Helios is Mallory and Decker is Mazian. But there's no Pell. Or rather, St. K is astrographically Pell, but in the war takes the role of Earth: a detached instigator that refuses to provide support. Without Pell and the Merchanter's Alliance (which also has no real equivalent) there's no basis for the peace that was negotiated in the material that inspired the Ares/CW conflict.

There are also cold war undertones. There is no indication in game that the Ares are a theocracy, but they do use the term commune for their nominally nonmilitary stations. The CW is NATO, the Sung are the PRC, the Ares are the USSR, the Huari are Korea or Tibet. Other stuff doesn't map, but it's more likely than your crusades allegory theory.

If that's aimed at me, I didn't compare them to the crusades. At all. Do not ascribe stuff to me that I do not say. Also "hypothesis", not theory. And the cold war didn't devolve into mass genocide. But there are plenty of things in the background material (not generally ingame) that indicate that the Ares sect believe(d) that they were following Domina, but that they were getting a different message from the Sisters...implying Oracus for one (or both), or that Domina is kinda weird.

[JohnBWatson]

Then CW messed up somehow,

They simply lost funding and public support over time.

I think it is mentioned in the game that only a small group of Ares sent the peace offering.

I think I remember that quote, but it was somewhat vague. Does anyone have the exact phrasing?

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Also, you're confusing two wars for a single one. The Syrtian war was the original battle, in which Earth was nuked and mars was basically wiped out. The Ares then fled.

Ah, right.

The Ares war is a newer war, that started after the Commonwealth and the resurgent Ares Orthodoxy encountered each other again during colonising efforts long after the Syrtian War, and didn't get on very well. It did not start with the nuking of earth.

As I understand it, the Fleet was sent to pursue the Ares after they retreated to the Outer Realm.

The suicide attacks on carriers are also fairly sensible....the CSCs allowed the commonwealth to turn the tide of the war and drive the ares back

The CSCs, as I understand it, were the original Fleet sent against the Ares after their original retreat. The use of suicide bombers within Commonwealth ranks indicates that taking advantage of CW defectors is within Ares tactical doctrine.

several carriers

I only recall the Europa. Is there some lore I've missed here?

Some background info has some of the younger ares becoming dissatisfied with the old narratives they get fed...this may be the source of the peacemakers, or it might be a split in leadership.

I could really use a link to that. I've been searching for info on this for a while without any luck.

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The war is certainly not an allegory for the crusades. We know, rather, that they're based on C. J. Cherryth's Alliance-Union setting. Specifically Helios is Mallory and Decker is Mazian. But there's no Pell. Or rather, St. K is astrographically Pell, but in the war takes the role of Earth: a detached instigator that refuses to provide support. Without Pell and the Merchanter's Alliance (which also has no real equivalent) there's no basis for the peace that was negotiated in the material that inspired the Ares/CW conflict.

Isn't there an old saying that states that everything is based off of something else? The Crusades have a wide reach in popular culture, it wouldn't surprise me if one of the inspirations for Transcendence wasn't within some number of degrees of separation from the story of the Crusades.

There is no indication in game that the Ares are a theocracy

They are called the Ares Orthodoxy. That's something of an indication.

There are also cold war undertones. There is no indication in game that the Ares are a theocracy, but they do use the term commune for their nominally nonmilitary stations. The CW is NATO, the Sung are the PRC, the Ares are the USSR, the Huari are Korea or Tibet. Other stuff doesn't map, but it's more likely than your crusades allegory theory.

The Sung and Ares do not seem to have any real relationship, let alone one like that of China and the USSR.

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that indicate that the Ares sect believe(d) that they were following Domina, but that they were getting a different message from the Sisters...implying Oracus for one (or both), or that Domina is kinda weird.

That's also relevant, though I'm not sure how it works into the peace proposal exactly. Assuming the encouragement to attack Earth actually did come from Domina, and was not simply a power play by the Martian leadership, Domina could have continued to play a role in Ares politics. That, of course, would still leave the question of why She wants them to attack Her pilgrims. I remember a very interesting thread on this topic from a while back.

[AssumedPseudonym]

 

Should the Fleet campaign be taken as an allegory for the Crusades, and the attack on Earth for the slaughter of Christians at Mecca, a moderate did eventually take hold of the situation and make peace with the Catholic church despite being on the winning side at the time.

Do not ascribe stuff to me that I do not say.

 Sounds like good advice. ^.~

 Frankly, I’m of the opinion that there’s so much lore that’s either unknown or has retconned — I’m lookin’ at you, no-longer-defunct UAS — that it’s really hard to do more than just speculate at this point. Sure, there’s a mountain of evidence against Helios and everyone likes Decker, but Galileo had a few particularly unpopular notions in his day, too. If I was in Decker’s shoes, would I give Helios the benefit of the doubt? Probably not, not with the stakes involved. As a player of the game, though? I don’t have nearly as much on the line and can afford to do so.

[Song]

 

Should the Fleet campaign be taken as an allegory for the Crusades, and the attack on Earth for the slaughter of Christians at Mecca, a moderate did eventually take hold of the situation and make peace with the Catholic church despite being on the winning side at the time.

Do not ascribe stuff to me that I do not say.

 Sounds like good advice. ^.~

 Frankly, I’m of the opinion that there’s so much lore that’s either unknown or has retconned — I’m lookin’ at you, no-longer-defunct UAS — that it’s really hard to do more than just speculate at this point. Sure, there’s a mountain of evidence against Helios and everyone likes Decker, but Galileo had a few particularly unpopular notions in his day, too. If I was in Decker’s shoes, would I give Helios the benefit of the doubt? Probably not, not with the stakes involved. As a player of the game, though? I don’t have nearly as much on the line and can afford to do so.

Ah yes. Sorry Atarlost.....I need to stop reading these when I'm half awake.



Of course, the only logical solution to this snarl of developing continuity is to go to the Shrike Gets Bored in IRC AU and make some of it canon.

[StealthX051]

I remember that the CW Fleet is mostly forgotten by the general CW public. Most of the CW public (St. K's and all systems before) don't really see the Ares as a threat. Also, it seems that the CW Fleet is pretty much cut off and isolated from any supply lines. Seriously, we haven't seen a CW Fleet station with the exception of Point Juno and some scattered CW Militia bases. As the plot in the game alludes to Point Juno being the last supply station, and if Point Juno is lost, the CW fleet must be retreat, it makes sense that before, there were many "Points". It would also make sense that the Ares has destroyed many of these supply stations. Therefore, one might be led to believe that the CW fleet is totally outnumbered and outgunned, and many of the crew might be disgruntled after years of constant war, and the lack of supplies, the crew might be open to the idea of mutiny. The existence of the CW rebels support this point. The crew might have also wanted an end of the war in any way possible.

Helios might have betrayed the fleet because she and her crew wanted peace in any way possible, which was to ally with these Ares. Decker might be considered an idealist, loyal to the CW, and hoping for a lucky break with the Lamplighter project. This means that most of the CW crew wants to mutiny or have peace. On the Ares side, it might be the other way around. Galvanized by recent victories and the invention of the unstoppable Phobos, the majority of the Ares might want to defeat the CW once and for all in revenge for the nuclear genocide of Mars. However, there might be a pacifist group that might have asked Helios for peace. Given that this is a pacifist group, it might make sense that this pacifist group might be in charge of the research station at Heretic.

Most of my post is not really related to Helios vs Decker , but I think that it gives some possible framework for this situation.

[JohnBWatson]

The existence of the CW rebels support this point. The crew might have also wanted an end of the war in any way possible.

The Rogue Fleet are not political rebels, they are pirates. They are hostile to Ferians and the Ares as well as the Fleet.

The Rogue Fleet is made up of pilots who decided that the Fleet was doomed, and that they'd have better luck on their own. They aren't the type of people who have strong convictions, and are more than willing to raid civilian transports for their own sake.

Helios might have betrayed the fleet because she and her crew wanted peace in any way possible, which was to ally with these Ares. Decker might be considered an idealist, loyal to the CW, and hoping for a lucky break with the Lamplighter project. This means that most of the CW crew wants to mutiny or have peace.

Fleet soldiers may not believe they can win the war anymore, but the Ares are largely regarded as irredeemable for their attack on Earth. The CSC captains we can talk to, save for Helios, share this belief. In addition, the fact that Helios has far fewer Centurions under her command than any other CSC, as well as the fact that, should the Antarctica be destroyed, they will flee rather than avenge it, indicate that her crew is not likely to be entirely on board with her plan. At best, they are just following orders save for a few handpicked senior officers. At worst, it's a Red October situation, where much of the crew is unaware of the treason.

[catfighter]

You can't get everyone to see the same way without mind control, so why should it be different among the Ares? Only a tiny faction want peace, while the rest still thirst for blood.

I think the way it plays out it best not revealed in part one, but it would be something of a teaser to have news drift in in part two or CSC America. If you stop in a bar, you catch little tidbits like "The mysterious traitor to the fleet returned. What does she want?" or "Did you hear? St. Kat's was...destroyed!"

[sun1404]

Hmm. It would be pretty dramatic if you hear hints of St. Kats being destroyed after you went so far that somehow you can't ever go back to human space.

[catfighter]

Hmm. It would be pretty dramatic if you hear hints of St. Kats being destroyed after you went so far that somehow you can't ever go back to human space.

Messing with players' minds. If the player is ever going to actually find Ares Prime and find out the resolution to the war, such little things worked into dialogue would be a powerful buildup of suspense/despair/etc.

[JohnBWatson]

You can't get everyone to see the same way without mind control, so why should it be different among the Ares? Only a tiny faction want peace, while the rest still thirst for blood.

I think the way it plays out it best not revealed in part one, but it would be something of a teaser to have news drift in in part two or CSC America. If you stop in a bar, you catch little tidbits like "The mysterious traitor to the fleet returned. What does she want?" or "Did you hear? St. Kat's was...destroyed!"

CSC America takes place before SotP.

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You can't get everyone to see the same way without mind control, so why should it be different among the Ares?

Much of the human personality is genetic. The studies on the topic suggest it's even more important than the environment one grows up in.

[catfighter]

You can't get everyone to see the same way without mind control, so why should it be different among the Ares? Only a tiny faction want peace, while the rest still thirst for blood.

I think the way it plays out it best not revealed in part one, but it would be something of a teaser to have news drift in in part two or CSC America. If you stop in a bar, you catch little tidbits like "The mysterious traitor to the fleet returned. What does she want?" or "Did you hear? St. Kat's was...destroyed!"

CSC America takes place before SotP.

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You can't get everyone to see the same way without mind control, so why should it be different among the Ares?

Much of the human personality is genetic. The studies on the topic suggest it's even more important than the environment one grows up in.

Domina sends visions/prophecies/etc. Have an early worshiper/pilgrim describe a catastrophic future in which the human capital is once more wiped off the map.

Be that as it may, I have seen some pretty darn erratic twins who do everything randomly and never the same as the other. If the Ares clones are that similar to each other, why do they "modify" themselves differently? Why do they do anything differently? Why would the Council of War I read about somewhere be necessary if they all though almost exactly the same way?