If I had minigun full of particle blasts.........

[Song]

The thing with particle beams is that there's two basic sorts. Low ROF, high damage beams that generally lack WMD and thus suck against internals (like the particle bolts for the Archura in EP, and I think Rasiermesser has a particle gun like this in CC). Then there's the high-ROF, low damage weapons that suffer from roundoff because they have lower damage per shot than even laser weapons do (eg. Dual TeV9, Hanzo, Shuriken). They can be very good, but resistance hits them very hard because if they can't do their full damage then it's not going to build up very well.


Then you have the middle-ground guns which have both mediocre rate of fire AND mediocre damage. The particle beam weapon and the single TeV9 are in this category. They just suck all around.


There's almost a third sort: pseudo-howitzers. The Nandao bolt cannon in vanilla is absolute rubbish for its level, but it's the only ammo-using particle weapon in vanilla, and has WMD...so while it's not very good, it's equally not-very-good against everything, and can actually hurt internals. The heliotrope's sunflare cannon is a travesty when you contrast its effects with the description, but it also has (very low) WMD. Unfortunately, neither of these guns has enough WMD to make up for the fact that they're ultimately still low ROF supposedly-high-damage guns....but also really bad ones.


Particle weapons generally suffer from the fact that they have no innovation in them. The fanciest thing you get is alternating, and that's hardly much. Contrast with ion weapons having passthrough, EMP, ionising and device disruption, and the WMD and tracking that the matter damage types have. They're not all that bad (although the game really does need some balance changes for armor in general, including making particle less of a 3-system option), but vanilla particle weapons are really boring. Combine that with the fact that laser is usually better at lower levels, and blast is better at higher levels....and there's really very little space for particle weapons to shine.

[catfighter]

I'd use particle weapons against sandstorms, but to fight anything else you may as well chuck the gun out the airlock and drop your shields to save the enemy time.

And I definitely have to agree about the lack of innovation. The fanciest thing I've seen is the Slicer's crossfire, a perfect recipe for the galaxy's most creative friendly fire scenarios.

[Song]

I'd use particle weapons against sandstorms, but to fight anything else you may as well chuck the gun out the airlock and drop your shields to save the enemy time.

And I definitely have to agree about the lack of innovation. The fanciest thing I've seen is the Slicer's crossfire, a perfect recipe for the galaxy's most creative friendly fire scenarios.

Actually, the PM6 Slicer is probably the best of the low-level particle guns. it's basically a better Shuriken, if you can aim it carefully. It really plays to the strengths of particle weapons....very high ROF, and while the damage is low, you ca pile it onto a single point if you aim carefully, doing pretty decent damage to internals.


Problem is that it's a not-random item that has a low rate of spawning in a wreck that also has a low rate of spawning. And still has fairly low damage-per-shot. I'm sorely tempted in SM&M++ to just make it a very rare gun so you can sometimes buy the damned thing.

[JohnBWatson]

I'd use particle weapons against sandstorms, but to fight anything else you may as well chuck the gun out the airlock and drop your shields to save the enemy time.

A Tev9 with a stock firerate can take down Capship shields in decent time, and can hurt most things fairly well.


The Ares doctrine is brute force, and the Fleet doctrine is tactical versatility. Too many people make the mistake of comparing the two based solely on direct combat, which is as absurd as claiming a B - 52 can outfight a Hornet because it has more bombs.

The Tev9 is a low power cost, moderate damage weapon with decent range, and uses technology that's been developed on the civilian market, and is thus affordable to field. Stick it onto something, and you can build a lot of that thing while giving it decent engines and shielding as well. It's not a spectacular weapon, but it's practical, and that's what matters in war. Notice how a CSC can kill anything short of a Phobos? Notice how the Kobol are the most threatening endgame faction that isn't the Ares? That's the power of the Tev9. It's not meant for heroes, it's meant for armies.

The Centurion, which fields it, is a perfect example of a ship that, while unimpressive on paper, can prove amazing in practice.

Sandstorms, while being roughly on par with it in raw cost, are infinitely outclassed in tactical combat. The damage they take is permanent, while the damage Centurions take can largely be absorbed by shields. Centurions can cover each other when in need of it, and ultimately prove vastly more survivable in combat, even against hugely superior numbers.

Tundras are powerful attackers, but it's trivial to outmaneuver them in a Centurion. The Tev9 can take out a Tundra's armor surprisingly quickly, and in an organized group, it's almost impossible for a Centurion's armor to be scratched by a Tundra.

The Capital ships of the Ares fleet are commonly touted as immune to Centurions. This is false. The only weapon Deimoses and Phobii have that can outrange the weapons of the Centurions is their main gun, which is quite easy to dodge at 80 ls, especially when one can focus exclusively on doing so while their wingmen hammer away. A Deimos or Phobos can only point at one ship at a time.

Ever played Smart Kobold? That's how the Fleet operates.

[PM]

PM6 Slicer is rubbish compared to dual particle beam or lancer cannon. Higher level and powerUse, but less DPS and range. It is okay if you can loot it and cannot get better before Charon.

Particle weapons are only viable in midgame because there is usually a glut of early game enemies in midgame systems. In most games, I see more outlaws, pirates, and other pre-Charon enemies than actual midgame enemies such as Sung and Dwarg.

[Atarlost]

The Ares doctrine is brute force, and the Fleet doctrine is tactical versatility.

Er, no. The Ares have a versatile combined arms force of cheap and premium fighter analogues, torpedo bomber analogues, cruisers, battleships, and bomber analogues. The CW Fleet doesn't. The CW has gunships and obsolete gunships and a cruiser they never use. The Ares procurement policy proves that they have more sophisticated doctrine than you grant them while the Fleet show no evidence of sophistication.

[JohnBWatson]

Er, no. The Ares have a versatile combined arms force of cheap and premium fighter analogues, torpedo bomber analogues, cruisers, battleships, and bomber analogues. The CW Fleet doesn't.

Outright false. George has stated that the Fleet has more ships than are present in vanilla at the moment. In addition, the Fleet gunships already seen are much more versatile than their Ares counterparts, and the presence of carriers in the Fleet indicate a much more specialized doctrine.

The CW has gunships

That can defeat the Ares' most advanced fighters with nary a scratch, can outrange virtually everything else on the battlefield, and can move much more quickly than virtually every other WMD - capable vessel in the game.

and obsolete gunships

They can defeat the Tundra and the Sandstorm, their closest Ares counterparts, in a one to one fight, assuming all involved vessels are piloted optimally. That alone disproves your claim, but they can also deal not - insignifigant damage to higher tier Ares ships, serving as distractions while supporting other vessels.

and a cruiser they never use.

That's a gameplay abstraction, and an obvious one at that.

[Atarlost]

and obsolete gunships

They can defeat the Tundra and the Sandstorm, their closest Ares counterparts, in a one to one fight, assuming all involved vessels are piloted optimally. That alone disproves your claim, but they can also deal not - insignifigant damage to higher tier Ares ships, serving as distractions while supporting other vessels.

Ah, the delusion of perfect piloting rises again. The Centurion is obsolete because the Britannia exists, not because of anything anyone else has.

And you're claiming that the power that throws around one "super" gunship is tactically sophisticated while the power that uses a complicated combined arms force is all about throwing clones at the problem.

You keep trying to force your unfounded preconceptions on the game. Everything that doesn't fit them is a gameplay abstraction and everything that does must be taken as gospel truth. You know what's actual in game text and canonical timeline truth? The Commonwealth is losing the war in spite of the alleged "superiority" of the Centurion.

[Kourtious]

Foremost, the topic at hand is about particle weapons and its properties. However, I want to say that you are both right from my POV. The Commonwealth Fleet has a very versatile fleet and so does the Ares. Why? Because we are looking at both the well balanced unit and a specialization of units.

The Commonwealth Expeditionary Fleet is very versatile, because of its long-range deployment tactics and its Centurions. The Centurions themselves are the core of the Fleet and happen to be very versatile as individual units. It is a high defense, but low offense unit. This ship is what makes the Fleet versatile. Next, the Britannias are the elites of the entire Fleet. It is the undisputed most powerful assault gunship in Ares space. Lastly, the great Commonwealth Star Carrier. This is where players are confused about the Fleet's effectiveness. The CSC itself is supposedly a match for an entire fleet of Ares gunships. Unfortunately, the regular carrier does not use missiles. This kills its combat ability dramatically to the extent that it is barely stronger than a Deimos Ares Cruiser.

The Ares Fleet is very versatile. However, unlike the Commonwealth, it focuses on the specialization of each of its ships. The sandstorm is a swarm unit that is designed to inflict high damage in masses while having decent armor. It's specialization is that is an expendable unit. Next, the Tundra's specialization is basic long range support. It has a very powerful AOE weapon that easily removes the shields of entire squadrons. Third, like the Tundra, the Cometfall is a long range support unit. However since its slow, but packs a great WMD weapon; it is categorized as a long range artillery unit and as a anti-capital support ship. Fourth, the Chasm is basically the more powerful Centurion counterpart. However, its specialization is actually in escorting ships, because its role as an offensive unit isn't as expendable as a Tundra or a Sandstorm. Next to last, the Deimos is simply the Ares counter part to the Aquila Cruiser. Lastly, the Phobos. This ship has the 2nd strongest anti-capital weapon and its lack of mobility are easily covered by its very thick armor and its Ares lightning turrets. The Phobos and Deimos are both specialized to be anti-capital warships.

TL;DR-Ares are flexible, because they have different ships for each role. Commonwealth are flexible, because of its Centurions.

Still though, Centurion fire rate could be higher and all CSCs could receive an enhanced Tev9. Something like the bushido weapon enhancer.

Ares too stronk!!

[JohnBWatson]

Ah, the delusion of perfect piloting rises again. The Centurion is obsolete because the Britannia exists, not because of anything anyone else has.

The presence of Supercomputers does not make home PCs obsolete. Centurions use less fuel and can be deployed in greater numbers.

And you're claiming that the power that throws around one "super" gunship is tactically sophisticated while the power that uses a complicated combined arms force is all about throwing clones at the problem.

I suppose you'll next be lambasting America's generals for using the F/A - 18 rather than designing and producing separate aircraft for every role it fills? Versatility is strength, especially in a war like the one against the Ares, where procurement of new weapons platforms is a slow and unreliable process due to lack of funding and public support.

You keep trying to force your unfounded preconceptions on the game. Everything that doesn't fit them is a gameplay abstraction and everything that does must be taken as gospel truth.

I have provided empirical support for each of my assertions, whereas you've done little more than respond flippantly.

You know what's actual in game text and canonical timeline truth? The Commonwealth is losing the war in spite of the alleged "superiority" of the Centurion.

It's well known canon that the Fleet is losing because of the lack of support from St. Kat's, which has led to their forces gradually being worn away without replacement, coupled with the inexhaustible nature of the Ares forces brought about by the mineral wealth of their home system and their extensive use of clones. The superiority of Fleet craft in combat is further supported by the fact that Fleet officers are unpleasantly surprised whenever the player loses more than 2 wingmen, even against vastly larger groups of hostiles. Must I provide you with an extensive list of all the myriad conflicts in which the losing side has had a favorable kill / loss ratio?

---

Foremost, the topic at hand is about particle weapons and its properties.

On that subject, Outer Realm particle weapons are unimpressive alone, but deadly in numbers. The Antarctica is surprisingly tough when in range, able to eat through even top tier armor and destroy projectiles with its turret fire. The Kobol are one of the most threatening lategame enemies. They're not really viable for the player, but then, they aren't intended to be. They can best be compared to the Turbolaser cannon - excellent if gotten before its place in the game, a solid choice for any capital ships' turrets, and a threatening weapon fielded by local factions, but rather weak when fielded by a singular gunship.

Still though, Centurion fire rate could be higher and all CSCs could receive an enhanced Tev9. Something like the bushido weapon enhancer.

I don't see a reason why the CSCs shouldn't have a Bushido enhancer, unless it came to exist after they were built, or it's incompatible with the CSCs' multiple turrets. The Fleet Centurions definitely need to lose the firerate slowdown, as with it they're balanced for the New Beyond instead of the Outer Realm. Perhaps they should be split between a standard variant(with standard firerate), and a civilian variant, which keeps the nerf, so as not to make New Beyond civilian stations invincible fortresses of instant death for anything in the region.

[Song]

Right, right, time to be unpleasant, for all I do enjoy watching people nitpick each other to death.

First up, since we don't have any moderation on the forums (cough we probably should have), it's up to people to be nice. Take people's messages, debate it nicely, don't nitpick it to death, and don't insult each other. It's funny for the rest of us, but it destroys the original purpose of the thread. This is not a thread about debating the merits of the fleet. There have been several of those, as well as countless derailments of other threads. This one's about particle weapons and whether they suck or not. Consensus seems to be that they do. Yes, there's an overlap with the fleet. No, it's not a thread about backstory, motivation, or fleet headcanon. Got something completely off topic? Take it to PMs, a more suitable thread, or start something new for it. And stay civil. Just because we don't have moderation doesn't mean that doing anything is alright.


On the endlessly nitpicked subject of the fleet and ares war.....while I can't give away game canon from the registered dev program (I genuinely wish I could since it would change a lot of discussions and lead to interesting conversations.....but I can't. Them's the rules. If it's not in the game then it's not for anyone except George to disclose*), I can say that Atarlost's explanation is closer to being right according to current backstory details, although parts of both sides are correct. Nothing more on that note, sorry.

From purely ingame material (plus slight bias from stuff I *can't* talk about) the fleet is at a distinct technological disadvantage right now, and the apathy back home is making it difficult to adapt to the level required (although there's obviously some attempts. The Centurion/X and the CSC upgrade that the Terra sports are both attempts to ditch the obsolescent TeV9 and go to the superior Katana). That's the short, simple and not 100% correct version. It is close enough though. Obviously it becomes far, far more complex when you add the cool stuff in.

Keep in mind also that game canon does change as the game is updated, and does contradict itself: 0.99c era dialogue from the Fleet indicates that there's no contact at all, but the 1.0 era Parliament lines seem to contradict this by having representatives give specific figures and examples from the war. CSC America (and future SOTP updates) are going to change stuff a great deal. No sense in tearing each other to pieces over canon that's not nailed down in the first place. CSC America is all about the fleet having to adapt to the new phase of the war, and trying to recover the ability to hold back the Ares. This is going to mean changes in tech, it's going to mean changes in item balance, and it's going to mean changes in lore that will trickle into SOTP and the rest of the game's content. We can't guess what that's gonna be until we get it. Headcanon is all very fun (hell, I love it), but we seem to be taking it a bit too seriously of late.





*Unless it's a registered Dev working on it. In which case only that dev is allowed to release info from the dev wiki. Since most of it is TSB stuff, that's not a big deal because wolfy can't shut up.

[JohnBWatson]

This one's about particle weapons and whether they suck or not. Consensus seems to be that they do.

They could do to be a bit more varied(SM&M improves on this quite a bit), but I think that they're decent enough for what they are. Given that the Kobol can kill even an endgame level playership that gets too close, I think the particle weapons we have are fairly sufficient.

However, I would like to see at least one or two particle weapons that are worthwhile for the player to use in the lategame. The Xenophobes, which rely on them, have fallen victim to power creep from the rest of the universe, and they could use a bit of a buff. It might work out well to give their Worldships a heavy particle weapon that can stand up to late game enemies and be useful to the Pilgrim.

On the endlessly nitpicked subject of the fleet and ares war.....while I can't give away game canon from the registered dev program (I genuinely wish I could since it would change a lot of discussions and lead to interesting conversations.....but I can't. Them's the rules. If it's not in the game then it's not for anyone except George to disclose*), I can say that Atarlost's explanation is closer to being right according to current backstory details, although parts of both sides are correct. Nothing more on that note, sorry.

Firstly, you're referring to TSB, right? I'm not up to date on the whole modding system, as I imagine most of that goes on in IRC.

I recall George saying that canon is subject to change up until it's ingame, though I don't recall the exact thread. One of the reasons I'm looking forward to the upcoming RTS(besides the fact that it's a game where you control an aircraft carrier in space, which is magnificent in and of itself) is that it's likely to be one of the rare RTS games that allows asymmetric warfare, with factions that are vastly more different than those seen in almost any other RTS. I imagine, however, that the process of setting that up is going to change a lot, so I'm fairly sure that quite a bit of what all of us know will change with its release.

Keep in mind also that game canon does change as the game is updated, and does contradict itself: 0.99c era dialogue from the Fleet indicates that there's no contact at all, but the 1.0 era Parliament lines seem to contradict this by having representatives give specific figures and examples from the war. CSC America (and future SOTP updates) are going to change stuff a great deal. No sense in tearing each other to pieces over canon that's not nailed down in the first place. CSC America is all about the fleet having to adapt to the new phase of the war, and trying to recover the ability to hold back the Ares. This is going to mean changes in tech, it's going to mean changes in item balance, and it's going to mean changes in lore that will trickle into SOTP and the rest of the game's content. We can't guess what that's gonna be until we get it. Headcanon is all very fun (hell, I love it), but we seem to be taking it a bit too seriously of late.

I read that after writing my above paragraph. It's uncanny how similar people think sometimes.

In any case, I agree, if that wasn't already clear. :p

[pixelfck]

(... on no-moderation and 'be nice' ...)

Amen.

This one's about particle weapons and whether they suck or not. Consensus seems to be that they do.

Hmm, by the time you reach Ares space, they are somewhat obsolete. However, I'm a great enthusiast of particle weapons before Ares space. I typically try to get a Shurikan Neutron Blaster asap (loot one from the Sung if I can't buy one) and try to update it to a Hanzo Blaster if I find one.

I don't think particle blasters suck and as such, I don't think they need improvement.

Firstly, you're referring to TSB, right? I'm not up to date on the whole modding system, as I imagine most of that goes on in IRC.

No, he is referring to the registered modders program run by George. Some modder, those who have shown both a dedication to the game and an aptitude for writing well thought out mods which they consistently update, are invited to join the registered modders program. As such, they have access to a whole lot more information on the universe, its backstory, and its intended future. All of this information is locked behind a non-disclosure agreement.
As a result, some of those participating in this discussion are dancing a limp legged dance: they see assumptions which are not in line with what is written, yet they cannot contradict it without going breaking the Non-disclosure agreement they signed.

~Pixelfck

[shanejfilomena]

Personally - Ion weapons are the only thing Ares Understand.
I work the entire game to get myself a triple turret mounted Ion Blaster ( IM90 multitarget blaster )

and longzhu sphere the hellz out of it

[Song]

Firstly, you're referring to TSB, right? I'm not up to date on the whole modding system, as I imagine most of that goes on in IRC.

No, he is referring to the registered modders program run by George. Some modder, those who have shown both a dedication to the game and an aptitude for writing well thought out mods which they consistently update, are invited to join the registered modders program. As such, they have access to a whole lot more information on the universe, its backstory, and its intended future. All of this information is locked behind a non-disclosure agreement.
As a result, some of those participating in this discussion are dancing a limp legged dance: they see assumptions which are not in line with what is written, yet they cannot contradict it without going breaking the Non-disclosure agreement they signed.

~Pixelfck

Couple of things to clarify:

First off: My pronoun is 'they', please.


Second, I should clarify what we agree to.....while I'm not really sure if I'd call it a proper NDA (regardless, it has the same effect), It's a rule of the program that we don't disclose the stuff behind the curtain, and we all agree to that when we accept an invitation to be part of it. Breaking that agreement would mean possibly getting removed from the group (it's never happened, but obviously that wouldn't be fun). And fair enough as well: it could really mess up someone's work if we did disclose the wrong thing, and a lot of it is WIP stuff that may not end up being accurate. I don't always agree with what's held back: there are some balancing resources that I feel should be more publicly available to modders.....but they're not for me to disclose, likewise the other stuff. We're still just modders and testers after all...it's George's universe.


Anyway. That's all on the subject of registered dev stuff. It's not a massive thing yet anyway except for TSB and one or two other things. None of those are mine, although I've floated a concept or two that I'd like to do in the future...since I got in, I've been too busy with SM&M++ and coursework to think about work on fancy canon stuff.

--------------------

Back to particle weapons.....I suppose the problem I have with the early ones is that when you get them, lasers are just better. Admittedly, the Shuriken is a nice gun, and the PM6 is even better (if you can get it in the first place).....but a dual turbolaser is so much easier to get, enhances really well, and does to job just fine until you can get a good blast gun (admittedly, I generally grind for a dual MK.III if I can, so that's going beyond 'good' and up to 'overpowered') which can last until xenophobes start turning up in force. And the later-level ones are...pretty bad.

I suppose that's largely down to armor resistance...whereas almost everything in the early game is using reactive armors (although this has improved of late with revised UAS ships) which favors lasers and lucky early particle drops, the midgame has high particle resistance and really makes blast super-viable (although not as insanely so as it was in older versions). It's only really in the later-game that both ion and thermo weapons both start getting resistance that matter and energy weapons have similar weaknesses.

...particle weapons also aren't helped by the fact that, if you're really lucky, you can get an ion or thermo weapon from a black market dealer and install it in St. Katherines....or even earlier if you luck-out and find an ID ROM.