ICS repellers as PD

[sun1404]

So I played a game with the PD mod by TVR, reached Heretic with my typical endgame equipment (an APA and whatever else). So I finished the missions, brought down the quarantine, engaged the ICS enthusiastically with my APA flaring and my Warhammers following in right behind, fully expecting at least 50% damage on the blue Jellyfish by the time I see it on-screen. What happened, though, was that I barely got its shield down. I was a little surprised, but that quickly elevated to very much surprised when I see how most of my shots doesn't connect. They disappear just before hitting the ICS, only a few Warhammers managed to detonate. Turns out the Big Blue was utilizing its repellers (for once), and they were doing a very good job (for once), as a point defense system. This is probably an effect of the PD mod, but perhaps it is from 1.6.3?

I tried invoking Domina's Defense and flew on top of the ICS, spamming the two most devastating weapons in Human Space, but could only ever get the damage slightly above 50%, before Defense fade off and the Shrimps start spewing their oatmeal on me. By the time Defense becomes available again, the Jellyfish repaired to below 50%. Rinsed and repeated, I proved to myself it is impossible to destroy it this way. In the end I had to use the Gem of Sacrifice. By the look of it, no amount of weaponry available in human space can get through that repeller wall.

My opinion: Let the Iocrym use the Repeller as PD. The weapon seems perfect for this purpose: it's short-ranged, fast firing, the projectile travels fast, but are relatively impotent by Iocrym standard. Of course, some balancing would be needed. Perhaps let the ICS fire only one repeller at a time, or give each of the repellers a quarter of a circle's angle of fire. The Jellyfish is currently easily destroyed if you have an APA and Warhammers. It takes only seconds, when there's no PD. If the ICS have some PD capability, the boss fight would be much more difficult (and the shrimps it releases would be much more relevant.)

[Song]

I'd agree. As an anti-ship weapon it makes little sense: the iocrym use short-range weapons with high DPS, and (one) long range weapon with terrible DPS but cool special stats. There's basically no point in a gun that makes things get knocked back out of Avalanche range.

Keep in mind though that PDmod also fixes the terrible stock point-defense system. With the vanilla system, it's going to get confused by missiles travelling past it (plus the phantom missile bug). So while a cutback in the number of guns would be required, it would be a difficult bit of balance.

[JohnBWatson]

I'd agree with that prescription, though I'd suggest giving it auto - reload for quantumsphere shells due to the expected longer fight. Otherwise, the player might find it boring to keep throwing shells at a target that isn't retaliating in any capacity. It's definitely a purpose built offensive power gate, but it should be trying to fight back throughout the conflict.

Going further into fixing up the ICS, would anyone prefer a different system for launching lobsters? Respawining a fleet of 5 if none are left every time the shields go down feels somewhat arbitrary and clunky. I'd suggest trying to maintain 5 at any time when the shield is down by checking if it has 5 every few seconds and spawning one if not.

On a more on - topic point, are there any other ships that could use this? CSCs feel like a given for this given how often they're attacked with Warhammers and Micronukes in missions, and Phobii and Deimoses would be a lot tougher if they used their turrets to destroy incoming shells, though it may not be feasible. Would a RDN's Akans work as PD?

Also, is there a ticket for the broken PD system? Seems like we have the code to fix it now, so it should be fairly simple for George to implement.

[sun1404]

For human capital ships I'd say adding conventional PD is more realistic. Using a Lightning turret to mow down missiles would be inefficient, especially because the turret needs to cool down.

Reloading Quantum Spheres would be nice, but then it'd counteract having the gun needs ammunition in the first place. I think having the ICS run out of ammo after a drawn-out fight is intended. For long-term retaliation the ICS have the ability to send out sentinels.

[JohnBWatson]

For human capital ships I'd say adding conventional PD is more realistic.

The Akans and Tev9s on the RDN and CSC are effectively conventional PD. I wouldn't be opposed to a new weapon that serves a dedicated anti - missile role, though.

Using a Lightning turret to mow down missiles would be inefficient, especially because the turret needs to cool down.

I'd say that's probably right. I do think it'd be cool to try, though.

Reloading Quantum Spheres would be nice, but then it'd counteract having the gun needs ammunition in the first place. I think having the ICS run out of ammo after a drawn-out fight is intended. For long-term retaliation the ICS have the ability to send out sentinels.

The fight gets a bit one sided once the ICS is out of ammo. Given that it is supposed to be guarding an exit from a quarantined system, as well as the fact that it is much larger than some ships that could carry thousands of Qspheres, I'd say that it's realistic enough to have it auto - reload. After all, the Sapiens are effectively a backwoods extremist group, yet their small refitted CW colonies never run out of missiles.

[Atarlost]

The Sapiens need infinite missiles so that they don't expend them all on NPCs before the player encounters them. The quarantine script guarantees that the ICS will encounter no hostile NPCs before the player so the combat duration can be properly controlled by ammo limits.

[JohnBWatson]

The Sapiens need infinite missiles so that they don't expend them all on NPCs before the player encounters them. The quarantine script guarantees that the ICS will encounter no hostile NPCs before the player so the combat duration can be properly controlled by ammo limits.

Eh, until the problem with AI shooting at planets is fixed, I think it can be agreed that the fight doesn't benefit from limited ammo. Also, it's unrealistic for a massive warship to hold only a small freighter's worth of ammo. Unless it's been in a lot of fights in the past(unlikely, given the quarantine), it should definitely have enough ammunition stocked that running out midfight isn't going to happen. It's the final boss, and while it's not as tough as most people would consider appropriate after taking on Phobii, I don't think the player should be able to assure victory simply by running down a clock.

[Song]

I think the main purpose of the ammo is to make it unviable as a playership gun. It's heavy, and that + the already not-that-good nature of the Q-sphere make it pretty worthless except for trolling the commonwealth.

[JohnBWatson]

I think the main purpose of the ammo is to make it unviable as a playership gun. It's heavy, and that + the already not-that-good nature of the Q-sphere make it pretty worthless except for trolling the commonwealth.

I'd agree there - the ammo could auto - restock on the ICS(indicating its virtually unlimited ammo capacity without actually having it drop thousands of ammo when killed), but not for the player.

[Atarlost]

The Sapiens need infinite missiles so that they don't expend them all on NPCs before the player encounters them. The quarantine script guarantees that the ICS will encounter no hostile NPCs before the player so the combat duration can be properly controlled by ammo limits.

Eh, until the problem with AI shooting at planets is fixed, I think it can be agreed that the fight doesn't benefit from limited ammo. Also, it's unrealistic for a massive warship to hold only a small freighter's worth of ammo. Unless it's been in a lot of fights in the past(unlikely, given the quarantine), it should definitely have enough ammunition stocked that running out midfight isn't going to happen. It's the final boss, and while it's not as tough as most people would consider appropriate after taking on Phobii, I don't think the player should be able to assure victory simply by running down a clock.

Remember, the Quantumsphere instantly kills anyone hit with shields down who doesn't have one of three armors in V. Only one of those can be mounted on a Wolfen or Sapphire. The only one available reliably before Heretic is Transuranic, which is one of the EI500 only armors.

A player must either farm lobsters for armor, never get hit by the quantumsphere, or never let their shields drop. Since Iocrym plasma weapons do so much damage that means either not getting hit or using a well enhanced Kaidun or Taikon-200.

Or wait them out. If people resort to planet sitting to do that it's because there are too many shots, not too few.

[JohnBWatson]

I've never once died to the ICS, and I've done some very less - than - wise things. Like taking it on in a Manticore with no shield.

Ultimately, a decent PD weapon makes the Qspheres virtually impotent, even without one, a shield can tank them to little ill effect, and any weapon that can actually hurt the ICS is able to shoot the shells down easily. The ICS is really quite weak for a final boss, there's no need to allow an exploit that cripples it further.

In any case, did we ever reach a conclusion on the CSCs, Phobii, and RDNs? What sort of PD should these capital ships have? I'd say that the CSC definitely needs something of a higher caliber than its ICS, should it be allowed to use its present turret arrays or would that look odd? The Phobos is a CSC hunter according to George, so PD would help it quite a bit, but we don't see any Ares PD weapons around, and it's possible that it's just not part of their doctrine. The RDN seems to be kitted out as a Ringer and Teraton killer, and can't really fight the Fleet's bigger guns on even ground regardless, but the missiles used by Brits are one of the major threats to it, so it might benefit from PD, especially considering how badly power creep has weakened it against the player.

There are other capital ships out there, but only the Aquila comes to mind regarding ships that are in desperate need of point defense. Giving the Kronosaurus a fixed ICS would be quite frightening and set it apart from other pirates, but on the other hand that may make it too powerful for those likely to encounter it to handle unassisted.

[Atarlost]

I've never once died to the ICS, and I've done some very less - than - wise things. Like taking it on in a Manticore with no shield.

The Manticore is not in V. CC introduces additional disintegration immune armors and the Manticore is required to use them in order to get properly scaling regen.

In any case, did we ever reach a conclusion on the CSCs, Phobii, and RDNs? What sort of PD should these capital ships have? I'd say that the CSC definitely needs something of a higher caliber than its ICS, should it be allowed to use its present turret arrays or would that look odd? The Phobos is a CSC hunter according to George, so PD would help it quite a bit, but we don't see any Ares PD weapons around, and it's possible that it's just not part of their doctrine. The RDN seems to be kitted out as a Ringer and Teraton killer, and can't really fight the Fleet's bigger guns on even ground regardless, but the missiles used by Brits are one of the major threats to it, so it might benefit from PD, especially considering how badly power creep has weakened it against the player.

Wolfy has provided quasi-canon realistic weapon loadouts for the CSCs and RDNs that include point defense. The Phobos does not necessarily need point defense because the Ares do not face a credible missile threat. Due in part to issues with radius weapons and overeager proximity triggers there are no non-contact nukes effective against capital ships except the Ares micronuke and warhammer. No regular state forces use the Gotha or Strelka lines, leaving corporate enforcers as the only enemies against whom AMS would be useful.

If missile fragmentation were rolled back to 0.99c behavior or if Wolfy's Ranx loadouts include Gothas then the Ares would need benefit from point defense, but currently their capital ships don't have much reason to fear missiles unless they have a civil war.

[Song]

Wolfy has provided quasi-canon realistic weapon loadouts for the CSCs and RDNs that include point defense. The Phobos does not necessarily need point defense because the Ares do not face a credible missile threat. Due in part to issues with radius weapons and overeager proximity triggers there are no non-contact nukes effective against capital ships except the Ares micronuke and warhammer. No regular state forces use the Gotha or Strelka lines, leaving corporate enforcers as the only enemies against whom AMS would be useful.

If missile fragmentation were rolled back to 0.99c behavior or if Wolfy's Ranx loadouts include Gothas then the Ares would need benefit from point defense, but currently their capital ships don't have much reason to fear missiles unless they have a civil war.

Worth noting that while they're still not perfect, radius weapons now seriously hurt, particularly the M series. Even beforehand, the side of a phobos was always very vulnerable to radius weapons.

But yeah, I don't think the Phobos or Deimos need PD systems....they already work pretty well. Get them pointed directly at a target (not side one) and they can soak a lot of firepower. The Deimos in particular.

[JohnBWatson]

Wolfy has provided quasi-canon realistic weapon loadouts for the CSCs and RDNs that include point defense. The Phobos does not necessarily need point defense because the Ares do not face a credible missile threat. Due in part to issues with radius weapons and overeager proximity triggers there are no non-contact nukes effective against capital ships except the Ares micronuke and warhammer. No regular state forces use the Gotha or Strelka lines, leaving corporate enforcers as the only enemies against whom AMS would be useful.

If missile fragmentation were rolled back to 0.99c behavior or if Wolfy's Ranx loadouts include Gothas then the Ares would need benefit from point defense, but currently their capital ships don't have much reason to fear missiles unless they have a civil war.

Isn't the major source of anticapital firepower missile weaponry? Every Fleet WMD dealing unit uses them, after all, and didn't the old Monitor have 4 NAMI Heavies? Of course, it's possible they only get away with this canonically because the Ares lack good PD in their designs. I see the argument of faulty radius and proximity weapons, but I don't think a glitch should be taken into account when determining canon.

Also, the Ranx and Ares are at war? I was under the impression that while the Ranx were not fans of the Ares, they needed them as a trade partner due to the end of their association with the CW. In any case, they appear to be a lot less powerful than the Ares, and not worth speccing their ships for war against when they're already in conflict with a much larger, more dangerous power.

[Atarlost]

The Commonwealth uses a lot of missiles, but for all that they're flashy they're not very good, particularly in an anti-capital role. The primary anti-capital weapon of the Commonwealth is the Katana Starcannon, used by the Aquila, Britannia, Aeries monitor, and the newer CSCs. Changes to internal structure have shifted the balance somewhat, but Ares ships have at least as much armor as structure and resist thermo while vulnerable to ion.

The internal structure implementation is almost universally considered broken. Not everyone has expressed an opinion, but everyone who has that I've seen dislikes it. Since it will probably change to reduce the impact of WMD the current mechanics should not be used for planning.

Even if the Ares are not at war with the Ranx they would consider the Ranx a potential enemy. China is not at war with the U.S. and to a substantial degree relies on us as a market for their manufacturies, but we are the primary enemy they prepare for war against because we exist and aren't their bosom buddies.