CSC America

[JohnBWatson]

I think I figured out how 'custom gunships' work in -universe, and how they might be implemented in America(and the lore). The only ships shown to be custom are those of the player, the player's persistent wingmen, the gladiators in the Arena, and the other privateer they encounter. These people all fill a common archetype - they travel across many systems in a universe where such practice is rare, they have money to burn(as shown by their ability to repair and refuel regardless of circumstance, as well as y the expensive equipment they have), and they regularly put themselves into danger to a degree unmet by even the Fleet. While standardized CH craft can keep up with a specific level of system(stock Wolfens can handle most early threats, and Brits could handle the late game well enough if they had better AI, and defending against in - system threats is all that is required of most combat ships), they are not an option for pilgrims and professional mercenaries, both of whom present a very lucrative market due to the wealth they frequently come into, as well as the former's willingness to pour their life savings into their mission. Thus, the Corporate Hierarchy manufactures separate variants of their more popular gunships to meet this demand. As Pilgrims have little sense of self preservation, and mercenaries and gladiators can earn enough money to refit their ship before killed(or at least they hope they can, the lower tier gladiators are likely desperate enough not to care), the CH's members can outfit them with older equipment, saving them money and giving them a use for obsolete armament that would otherwise have rusted in storage, hence the lower grade equipment of the player's starting ships compared to their stock equivalents.

Some stations maintain equipment to refit ships, which would seem strange given the relatively small amount of pilots flying custom gunships. However, this is only strange when one doesn't take profit into consideration. Many devices can repair the ship without using any materials other than power, and missile pods can be equipped without any cost whatsoever. This implies that there is very little production cost to repairing a starship or altering its armament. This, combined with the fact that the Commonwealth has come to rely on independent ships to provide any degree of protection for its citizens, makes the presence of refitting facilities on CW stations much more believable, especially given the fact that they often house millions of people, as much as some entire nations.

Now, the question of ships that are confirmed or implied to be refittable. The first of these is the Centurion, which can be refitted as a Centurion/X. This seems to diverge from the general pattern, given that it is a fairly standard vessel in use by many groups that do not require this of it. However, it is a military craft first and foremost, and the Commonwealth military, in keeping with the doctrine of versatility established by their fleet of carriers, was likely open to purchasing a versatile gunship that could emulate the success of our era's F/A - 18, viewing the ability to upgrade and deal with future threats as worth the extra cost. As other priorities grasped hold of the Commonwealth government and the Fleet was largely abandoned, the planned refit never occurred on a large scale, and many Centurions already constructed as replacements for expected casualties were never purchased. Thus, they were sold off as surplus, and quickly bought up by New Beyond stations and companies that found them able to vastly outclass the local threats. The second and third are the IAVs and the Salvager Nomads, which are both produced independently. The IAVs are improvised armored vehicles constructed from open source schematics by various groups, in a similar manner to the 3D printed handguns of the 2010s. It is likely that the groups building them had different roles and/or markets in mind, leading to a variety of loadouts. A diverse set of corporations, and other independents producing these ships would also serve to explain why, though loadout varies, it is not randomized. The Salvager Nomads are independent communities that have no interaction with outside groups. Thus, it makes sense that they would develop a means of enhancing their armament over time. While the means of building Nomads is not known, they do not seem to be affiliated with each other in any way, which implies their schematics are open source, and available to any group out there that sees that way of life as desirable. Another set of ships that straddles this line is the Kobol Gunship and Aurochs, but this is more likely than not a different subject entirely, as the visual differences between gunship roles suggest a greater similarity to the F - 35A/B/C than to the other ships I've described.

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Now, onto how this could effect gameplay in CSC America.

Firstly, there is the built in ability to upgrade Centurions. As the required equipment isn't especially rare, it could serve as a means of using acquired resources to help your fleet, and a way of making particularly valuable pilots more survivable on the fly. The need to refit your fleet of Centurions could also serve as a launching point for some of the story tangents mentioned in the first post. Faced with an order from Decker, would you raid a Scarab on its way to a Bushido dealer in the next system? They'd never find out, and your soldiers' lives depend on their equipment. Would you stay with a Commonwealth Station expected to come under attack, or divert your forces at the behest of the Hierarchy to protect a manufacturing plant in exchange for some much needed resources under the justification that you'll be able to save more lives later on? Would you split your forces, knowing that this will inevitably result in higher casualties?

Second, there is the presence of privateers, an increasingly necessary asset in the Fleet's doctrine of asymmetrical warfare. The various motivations of these pilots provides for a variety of interesting situations and dilemmas. A pilgrim paid or armed too well might well head out to the core, feeling ready to take on the Iocrym blockade. They would also be eager to head forward regardless, and less likely to be a persistent asset. Mercenaries, however, might well abandon missions too dangerous to be worth the risk. Both archetypes would require a balanced level of rewards, which would keep them capable of improving their equipment but still in enough need of employment that they are willing to work for you. The stock ships guarding various stations could, in trying situations, be bribed or pressed into joining your fleet, but would remain unable to improve their loadout, and thus be less useful in the long term.

[catfighter]

Now, the question of ships that are confirmed or implied to be refittable. The first of these is the Centurion, which can be refitted as a Centurion/X. This seems to diverge from the general pattern, given that it is a fairly standard vessel in use by many groups that do not require this of it. However, it is a military craft first and foremost, and the Commonwealth military, in keeping with the doctrine of versatility established by their fleet of carriers, was likely open to purchasing a versatile gunship that could emulate the success of our era's F/A - 18, viewing the ability to upgrade and deal with future threats as worth the extra cost. As other priorities grasped hold of the Commonwealth government and the Fleet was largely abandoned, the planned refit never occurred on a large scale, and many Centurions already constructed as replacements for expected casualties were never purchased. Thus, they were sold off as surplus, and quickly bought up by New Beyond stations and companies that found them able to vastly outclass the local threats. The second and third are the IAVs and the Salvager Nomads, which are both produced independently. The IAVs are improvised armored vehicles constructed from open source schematics by various groups, in a similar manner to the 3D printed handguns of the 2010s. It is likely that the groups building them had different roles and/or markets in mind, leading to a variety of loadouts. A diverse set of corporations, and other independents producing these ships would also serve to explain why, though loadout varies, it is not randomized. The Salvager Nomads are independent communities that have no interaction with outside groups. Thus, it makes sense that they would develop a means of enhancing their armament over time. While the means of building Nomads is not known, they do not seem to be affiliated with each other in any way, which implies their schematics are open source, and available to any group out there that sees that way of life as desirable. Another set of ships that straddles this line is the Kobol Gunship and Aurochs, but this is more likely than not a different subject entirely, as the visual differences between gunship roles suggest a greater similarity to the F - 35A/B/C than to the other ships I've described.

Open-source schematics could explain away basically any variation (unless piracy had significant impact) in the game.

Now that you bring it up; Salvager Nomads. They seem to work in groups of two occasionally, but only until they deem it profitable to part ways (ie. if multiple sources of loot are located). Both Salvagers still use the same wreck as storage for their goods, indicating at least mutual tolerance if not cooperation. They would be an invaluable avenue for trade and perhaps a more complex background could be developed for them than "they fly around picking up broken things to resell." It would be amazingly helpful to dock a transport with the nearest Salvager, say "I want that one," and then repair your new(ish) archcannon for use on a wingman.

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Many devices can repair the ship without using any materials other than power, and missile pods can be equipped without any cost whatsoever. This implies that there is very little production cost to repairing a starship or altering its armament.

If that were true, where would stations get such enormous amounts of energy as would be necessary to create or significantly alter matter in this way? And if such power is so readily available, why isn't it being channeled into ultra-mega-hyperdrives, god weapons, and unbreachable shields? And why don't ships have access to it?

(Un)installing devices I could understand as a simple matter of some soldering and sealant, but I think the stations have to have at least some access to materials, even if it is just the occasional miner dumping some surplus ore. If energy-only manipulation of matter with such unadvanced technology was so widespread that even the most derelict, out-of-the-way junkyard had access to it for such cheap fees... I shudder to think of how it would be (mis)used.

I know some mods use the concept of "scrap" and I think this would be a nice implementation. Salvage from a wreck (or purchase from a Nomad), refine the junk, and then weld the new metal on to your exterior bulwark for quick and easy self-repair. I suppose there's always the problem of finding the right kind of metal...

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I love your explanations though, Watson. Perhaps military ships already have been taking out the occasional transport for some time now. That would certainly explain the escort mission ending in a scarab performing a suicide run. If a pilot survived or witnessed a raid and wanted revenge...

[JohnBWatson]

Open-source schematics could explain away basically any variation (unless piracy had significant impact) in the game.

Most of the ships are manufactured by specific corporations, which would likely press charges if someone else were using their schematics. The difference with IAVs is that they are improvised designs. The rights to said designs do not belong to any specific entity, thus the lack of a 'manufacturer' for them in the source code.

Now that you bring it up; Salvager Nomads. They seem to work in groups of two occasionally, but only until they deem it profitable to part ways (ie. if multiple sources of loot are located). Both Salvagers still use the same wreck as storage for their goods, indicating at least mutual tolerance if not cooperation. They would be an invaluable avenue for trade and perhaps a more complex background could be developed for them than "they fly around picking up broken things to resell." It would be amazingly helpful to dock a transport with the nearest Salvager, say "I want that one," and then repair your new(ish) archcannon for use on a wingman.

I think that might simply be the way arrays work. However, I've never seen a Nomad using anything for storage, so I can't be certain.

If that were true, where would stations get such enormous amounts of energy as would be necessary to create or significantly alter matter in this way? And if such power is so readily available, why isn't it being channeled into ultra-mega-hyperdrives, god weapons, and unbreachable shields? And why don't ships have access to it?

Enormous amounts of energy aren't required. The patcher arm and its equivalents use very little fuel.

(Un)installing devices I could understand as a simple matter of some soldering and sealant, but I think the stations have to have at least some access to materials, even if it is just the occasional miner dumping some surplus ore. If energy-only manipulation of matter with such unadvanced technology was so widespread that even the most derelict, out-of-the-way junkyard had access to it for such cheap fees... I shudder to think of how it would be (mis)used.

The way kinetic weapons work is likely also the way repairs work. As I recall, they absorbed the required materials from space.

Perhaps military ships already have been taking out the occasional transport for some time now. That would certainly explain the escort mission ending in a scarab performing a suicide run. If a pilot survived or witnessed a raid and wanted revenge...

That's the first real explanation I've seen for that mission. Given that the Outer Realm is where Transcendence's roots in Downbelow Station become most apparent, I wouldn't be surprised if it were correct.

[catfighter]

I think that might simply be the way arrays work. However, I've never seen a Nomad using anything for storage, so I can't be certain.

When Nomads spawn, a new wreck is created and they are programmed to dump their stuff in it. When I do a pirating run, I follow the Nomads back to this storage before killing them. Some pretty decent loot can end up in there, especially if CW stations spawn next to material-rich farming-quality enemies.

Enormous amounts of energy aren't required. The patcher arm and its equivalents use very little fuel.

The way kinetic weapons work is likely also the way repairs work. As I recall, they absorbed the required materials from space.

Yet they would still require physical material. I could believe that they would intake loose debris for repairs, but since they still function in deep space and void encounters? Questionable.

Is the America going to be able to intake material in this way? Park on a planet/asteroid field, turn on the vacuum, and sit back as your ship auto-collects anything and everything it needs. Why don't miners use this strategy once the asteroid fields run dry?

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How is food going to be dealt with? Everyone needs to eat. Since a single food package seems to be able to keep a station going for quite some time, is it going to be taken for granted that crew members have enough from pre-stocked reserves? Or will the ship be treated like a station and require wingmen to go out shopping?

"Hey, you there! Take this Centurion and go to the metropolis. I want my waffles and coffee!"

Personally I would want to keep it simple and assume each pilot takes care of their own needs, but this can take all the fun out of sieges...

[JohnBWatson]

Is the America going to be able to intake material in this way? Park on a planet/asteroid field, turn on the vacuum, and sit back as your ship auto-collects anything and everything it needs. Why don't miners use this strategy once the asteroid fields run dry?

The amount of matter required to repair a damaged object is exponentially less than what is required to build a new one. In addition, the material fired off by weaponry are likely much less valuable than those used in manufacturing.

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How is food going to be dealt with? Everyone needs to eat. Since a single food package seems to be able to keep a station going for quite some time, is it going to be taken for granted that crew members have enough from pre-stocked reserves? Or will the ship be treated like a station and require wingmen to go out shopping?

"Hey, you there! Take this Centurion and go to the metropolis. I want my waffles and coffee!"

Personally I would want to keep it simple and assume each pilot takes care of their own needs, but this can take all the fun out of sieges...

CSCs seem able to spare food for nearby stations in Transcendence, though a mod idea by George suggested that it might be possible to cut off the Fleet's supply lines.

[Song]

One question I have: How will collateral damage be handled? I was joking around in IRC the other day about a "Team America: Universe Police" challenge run, in which the aim is to finish the CSC America campaign doing as much collateral damage as possible without being fired.....but this does raise a serious question....our units will be throwing nukes around.....there really should be some options for handling engagements near friendly civilians, with some potentially very dire consequences for inflicting civilian casualties (Eg. Kill a factory or corporate station = no more weapons or funding from that corporation. Kill a CW metropolis = sacked or relieved of command, or have a killsquad of Aquilas sent after your carrier)

[catfighter]

CSCs seem able to spare food for nearby stations in Transcendence, though a mod idea by George suggested that it might be possible to cut off the Fleet's supply lines.

That was what I was thinking of. The enemy could attempt to prevent your ship from receiving anything new and you could probably do the same to their bases.

One question I have: How will collateral damage be handled? I was joking around in IRC the other day about a "Team America: Universe Police" challenge run, in which the aim is to finish the CSC America campaign doing as much collateral damage as possible without being fired.....but this does raise a serious question....our units will be throwing nukes around.....there really should be some options for handling engagements near friendly civilians, with some potentially very dire consequences for inflicting civilian casualties (Eg. Kill a factory or corporate station = no more weapons or funding from that corporation. Kill a CW metropolis = sacked or relieved of command, or have a killsquad of Aquilas sent after your carrier)

And considering that we're already taking out our own freighters to get supplies and tech stuff...

How is funding going to be handled, anyway? The CSCs seem to be pretty self-sufficient except for needing fuel and life support. Will currency be as important/major as in Transcendence? It probably will if we're going to be outfitting our wingmen from trade outposts and not producing things ourselves or occasionally buying in bulk.

[JohnBWatson]

So, something I've been contemplating in the past few days is how George might solve one of the most difficult problems of designing the game.

This problem, of course, being the ability to fight Phobii in an RTS. I've thought of three possible solutions to this, each with its own drawbacks.

The first and simplest solution is to implement Nasser's ship as a Fleet - aligned battleship and Phobos counterpart. Drawbacks to this include the fact that a battleship might fundamentally alter the dynamics of the war, and that the Fleet's logistics are not structured in a way that would be favorable to the use of battleships. In addition, given that this is, based on the timeline, a prequel to Transcendence, the inclusion of a battleship here that is not present in the vanilla game would create multiple plotholes.

The second solution is even less elegant, but easier to implement. In testing, multiple Aquilae can fight a Phobos and win. However, the casualties that would result from this would not be sustainable, and, in Transcendence, the Fleet is quite conservative with its Aquila squadrons, only dispatching Britannias to assist the player in destroying Phobii.

The third solution is the most attractive, both in terms of plot and gameplay, but, while requiring no severe engine changes and absolutely no new ships, does need the most new code. This solution involves making the player's gunships intelligent enough to fight Capital ships effectively. While stock Centurions would still be unable to fill this role well, an organized group of Britannias could theoretically destroy a Phobos by following a simple pattern. First, by staying out of range of the lightning turrets and away from the Phobos's main gun, they could take down the Kaidun and inflict critical armor damage. Afterwards, they could come in close and destroy it with their missile pods.

In game, the third solution would be surprisingly simple to implement based on a similar system to those employed by other RTSes. In essence, units could be set to one of 3 combat styles by the player. The first two already exist - the standard combat style, in which a unit gets into range and attacks with all of its onboard weapons, and the current 'advanced' style, in which units flee once their shields fall. The third would be quite easy to program. Get in shooting range with one's longest range weapon and bombard the enemy, keeping distance and staying away from the enemy's front should they have any forward firing weapons of comparable range.

[bzm3r]

The first and simplest solution is to implement Nasser's ship as a Fleet - aligned battleship and Phobos counterpart. Drawbacks to this include the fact that a battleship might fundamentally alter the dynamics of the war, and that the Fleet's logistics are not structured in a way that would be favorable to the use of battleships. In addition, given that this is, based on the timeline, a prequel to Transcendence, the inclusion of a battleship here that is not present in the vanilla game would create multiple plotholes.

I don't think it would necessarily cause plotholes. Perhaps CSC America's story would tell us why there aren't ships of Nasser's capability in the CW Fleet -- perhaps they were lost (not necessarily through destruction), and we will learn why by playing the game? It would also explain why Nasser has such a powerful ship, but not the CW. If the Corporate hierarchy can presumably afford one, presumably the CW would have been able to afford more than one. Why is it then that we don't see ships of that calibre in the main game?

CSC America could actually fill us in on a "mystery" then.

[george moromisato]

...This solution involves making the player's gunships intelligent enough to fight Capital ships effectively.

I like this idea. I plan on improving the AI for CSC America, but I don't know how far I'll get. But ultimately, I think it's also a question of numbers. A sufficient number of Britannias could probably take on a Phobos. But I'm not quite there in terms of the game design, so I don't know how it will work out.

Perhaps CSC America's story would tell us why there aren't ships of Nasser's capability in the CW Fleet -- perhaps they were lost (not necessarily through destruction), and we will learn why by playing the game? ...

There are certainly lots of questions like this. I don't have full answers yet, but I have some basic guiding principles:

* Both CSC America and the vanilla game take place when the Ares resume their attacks on the Commonwealth with better technology. In fact, the Phobos dreadnoughts are relatively new, and clearly outclass the Commonwealth Fleet. Part of CSC America will be about the Fleet catching up (i.e., going up the tech tree). There are lots of ways in which we can upgrade the Fleet (as you all have discussed here). The big constraint will be lack of funding support from the Commonwealth back in Saint Kats.

* I plan on introducing new classes of Fleet ships. But for now I'd like to keep the Fleet oriented around carriers (as opposed to dreadnoughts). For example, I'm thinking of introducing an experimental ship class that's better than the Britannia, but I'm not sure exactly what it should be like--perhaps you all can come up with some ideas? Here's a thread for it: https://forums.kronosaur.com/viewtopic.php?f=25&t=7027

* The game balance for Stars of the Pilgrim is all about balancing enemy-vs-player. Since the Ares are in the last section of the game, they need to be very strong. But since the player rarely fights the Fleet, they don't need to be that strong. In contrast, CSC America needs to balance Ares-vs-Fleet. I'll probably need to do some minor adjustments to both Ares and Fleet ships to get them to balance. I'll likely retcon that back to Stars of the Pilgrim (though it shouldn't have much of a visible effect).

* I haven't totally worked out the Corporate Hierarchy vs. Ares relationship. The Hierarchy and the Commonwealth are independent, so there is no guarantee that the Hierarchy would want to help the Commonwealth. Moreover, it's possible that if the Ares were to win control over the Outer Realm, that the Hierarchy would just decide to do business with them and thus get to keep their stations without a fight.

[JohnBWatson]

I like this idea. I plan on improving the AI for CSC America, but I don't know how far I'll get.

If you'd like, I could write up pseudocode of the proposed AI.

But ultimately, I think it's also a question of numbers. A sufficient number of Britannias could probably take on a Phobos.

I attempted to test this by spawning 30 Britannias and an aggressive Phobos. The Phobos focused exclusively on my ship, yet 28 of the Brits still died. I don't think they would have won at all had the Phobos focused on attacking them instead of me.

Both CSC America and the vanilla game take place when the Ares resume their attacks on the Commonwealth with better technology. In fact, the Phobos dreadnoughts are relatively new, and clearly outclass the Commonwealth Fleet. Part of CSC America will be about the Fleet catching up (i.e., going up the tech tree). There are lots of ways in which we can upgrade the Fleet (as you all have discussed here). The big constraint will be lack of funding support from the Commonwealth back in Saint Kats.

I like how all of that sounds. Looking forward to it.

[SolarGalaxy]

One way to buff the Fleet in capital ship engagements is to have options in the tech tree to allow your Aquila Cruisers to use more of their Katana starcannon slots. The standard Aquila in the game has only 2 Katanas (Probably due to funding and power limitations) when it could carry 6 according to the model. An Aquila with 6 Katanas can easily tear through a Phobos.
In addition we could improve the Aquila's fireadj attribute from 30 to 10 multiplying its firepower by a factor of 3. (I believe that this should really be done since both the Deimos and Phobos already have fireadj 10)

[JohnBWatson]

One way to buff the Fleet in capital ship engagements is to have options in the tech tree to allow your Aquila Cruisers to use more of their Katana starcannon slots. The standard Aquila in the game has only 2 Katanas (Probably due to funding and power limitations) when it could carry 6 according to the model. An Aquila with 6 Katanas can easily tear through a Phobos.

6? I only saw 4. I like the idea of upgrading the number of slots utilized, though.

In addition we could improve the Aquila's fireadj attribute from 30 to 10 multiplying its firepower by a factor of 3. (I believe that this should really be done since both the Deimos and Phobos already have fireadj 10)

This should be done as soon as possible. The Katana isn't the most powerful weapon in the first place, giving it its natural firerate would go a long way towards making them more useful in the outer realm.

[Song]

Having a certain number of upgrades possible for each ship type would certainly be handy. It might not be as efficient as replacing the ships (or just building more of them). And I'm not talking massive things either...there are relatively minor things that already exist in-universe that can buff an existing ship without major work. Some would be unique to one ship, some wouldn't. Eg: A fully upgraded base centurion could have the following upgrades: Ion resistance paste, shield HP bonus (+20%), disposable missile pod (A DM model, not the NM900), overhauled drive, and Dual TeV9 upgrade. If the player then unlocks the Centurion/X, all of these upgrades except the dual TeV9 get moved across to the /X models as well automatically, but it would have its own weapons upgrade unlock (eg. Bushido weapons enhancer, possibly a better missile pod as well) that wouldn't apply to the centurion. Likewise, if you then unlocked the Britannia, you would not get to transfer any of the upgrades across (except the bushido enhancer if you'd unlocked it) because it's a very different ship....but if you unlocked things on the britannia it might carry across to the new top-tier ship George is planning. And if you didn't have all the centurion unlocks when you got the /X, then unlocking them later would apply them to both ship, if applicable. Some upgrades would be very, very useful to a number of ships (Eg. The bushido enhancer, while sapping power, would increase the effectiveness of anything with a Katana or Hanzo)...others (like the dual TeV9 on the centurion) are expensive and potentially a waste of time, but can be useful if you really need that extra firepower to hold out until you can unlock something better.

...upgrades would need to fit each ships roles, of course: An aurochs transport would get things like an external cargo hold, improved drive, optimisation of the TeV9 to increase rate of fire, and maybe a NAMI mine launcher.....stuff that works in a utility role, but doesn't let it take on the universe. An aquila, as well as the bushido enhancer, would have things like "carry the M5 instead of the M2" and "improved damage-control parties" to repair it faster. And carriers....well, they'd get a mix of the Aquila stuff (damage control), and their own unique stuff based on supporting the fleet.



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[catfighter]

An aquila, as well as the bushido enhancer, would have things like "carry the M5 instead of the M2" and "improved damage-control parties" to repair it faster.

We'd want to make sure that regeneration is limited though (can't speed up beyond a certain point) or you could favor a single ship and get it repairing fast enough to match the DPS of an APA. [I modded an effectively unkillable wingman this way because its regen could be boosted indefinitely based on how much power it could intake.]

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I don't know how it would work out balance-wise, but I'd like to see a bit more variation in available playstyles. For example, having a tank ship to soak up damage while a low-health, high-DPS missile ship took out the phobos. Another possibility is a sniper ship. Wingmen are notoriously horrible at shooting down fleeing ships without omnidirectionality, so a gunship with a low-DPS swivel weapon that could at least match a howitzer for range could outdistance the APA and/or pick off fleeing targets.

I know the Athena-class is being developed but maybe the fleet could cobble together some other lower-tech experimental ships or try to reintroduce old designs to increase flexibility of strategy.