CSC America

[sun1404]

I think formations would be a very good system. Maybe let the player assign ships to one 'squadron leader', so the ships follow that leader in a formation you order. Then you can command just the leader and have the entire squadron go with him.

Or make 'squadron' objects that you can assign ships to. Like a team with seven slots, for a seven-ships squadron. You would address the squadron if you want to command all ships at once, or address individual ships for fine control.

[catfighter]

I think you should be able to order ships into formation (or have a SL do it). The ships would then do their best to remain in that formation while completing their mission.

Or make 'squadron' objects that you can assign ships to. Like a team with seven slots, for a seven-ships squadron.

I actually think "squadron slots" are a brilliant idea. You start with say 6 available and as your units get more experienced you can add more slots and get a wider variety of formations available to you.

[JohnBWatson]

I think you should be able to order ships into formation (or have a SL do it). The ships would then do their best to remain in that formation while completing their mission.

Or make 'squadron' objects that you can assign ships to. Like a team with seven slots, for a seven-ships squadron.

I actually think "squadron slots" are a brilliant idea. You start with say 6 available and as your units get more experienced you can add more slots and get a wider variety of formations available to you.

Alright, I think I see what you guys mean. Essentially, a pilot with X experience can be granted a squadron leader rank, and given a squadron. The squadron follows that unit in formation, attacks the same targets that it attacks, and docks with the carrier when the leader does the same. Units could become more likely to obey orders when in a squadron(if the player can control them independently of the squadron leader, a distance limit would be needed), as well as gain other benefits such as a lack of friendly fire with other units in the squadron(assuming CSC America doesn't turn off friendly fire outright) or a buff to combat stats based on the squadron leader's personality traits and skill.

[TVR]

So the lasers are all reflected, 2/3 of the missiles are shot down (ICX fires twice as fast and is assumed to target different missiles), and the other third could theoretically be shot down by the omni tev-9. So if the super wolfen stands still and acts like a target, it can ignore the shots from four ships due to the missile defense and theoretically block the shots of the other two using the omni-tev-9 indefinitely (or until the weaker wolfens run out of ammo). If instead it focuses on destroying one of them, it can do so in ideally 7 shots to the same location (assume 20 due to missing, alternating between two segments and accidentally targeting other ships because the pilot got bored). Since every other shot blocks a missile it takes twice as many shots, but since the missile launcher fires half as often, the ignored wolfen gets roughly 20 free shots before you destroy your target and get to focus on it. In theory these would be the only shots you get hit by in the entire fight and they would not be enough to get past a single segment of Gusoku armor. By the time you destroy the second ship, the others will be almost out of ammo.

This neglects several factors:
1) NAMI missiles have a range of 96 ls, which exceeds the Omni-TeV9 @ 80 ls
2) NAMI missiles are homing, thus cannot be dodged and can be fired off boresight.
3) Stock ICX requires 3-4 shots to intercept a Stiletto, since half the shots miss due to default interaction of 50%, and ICX does an average of 8 damage, when the missile HP is 10.
4) Gunships in formation do not need to cluster in tail-chase, their maneuver stats are identical so all they need to do is copy the exact movements of the target Wolfen to cancel them out.
5) Reflection is not perfect, it fails ~5% and damage is done, and the failure chance also increases with armor damage.
6) Each Dual Turbolaser can be swapped for an unreflectable Flenser @ 90 ls range

Let's up the ante though, because we can do better than just Stilettos and Turbolasers for a hundred thousand credits:

8x Missileship
8x Wolfen (~3000*8)
8x NM900 (2000*8): Cheaper, more powerful, more plentiful, and even more durable (20 HP) than Stilettos.
4x Flenser cannon (3500*4): Partially blocks beams, penetrates Luminous Thermo shields and creates decoy targets against missile defense.
4x Nova-25 reactor (3000*4)
8x Class II deflector (1000*8)
32x Light Plasteel segment (200*32)
8x Targeting ROM (300*8)
= 82800
+
1x Scout/Harasser: To pursue and gradually whittle down the fuel supply and armor of any ship.
1x Hornet (~1000)
1x Light Plasteel segment (200)
1x Flenser cannon (3500)
1x Nova-25 (3000)
1x Cyclotron S55 (2000): If hit, fall back temporarily to safe distance to recharge shields. Can be upgraded to S1200.
1x Targeting ROM (300)
= 10000

82800 + 10000 = 92800

Remaining 2640 credits can be used for fuel, armor patches, coatings, additional weapons, etc.

The first is logistical. A fleet of ships will not be able to reliably mass itself against the single gunship, ...

A gunship squadron can be treated as a single unit, since all of its components can be manufactured, operated and maintained together.

A fleet of ships ... will present higher refueling and maintenance costs over the long term.

This neglects one crucial fact: The advanced gunship is at least 3 tech levels more complex than each gunship in the squadron. Customized prototypes are inherently more difficult and costly to maintain than mass production models, e.g. try finding level 7+ armor repair facilities or pteracnium fuel in level 4 space. This results in lower strategic mobility than the lower tech gunship squadron.

The gunship squadron actually consumes less fuel than an advanced gunship. The standby power draw of each gunship in the sample squadron is 3.5 MW, totalling to 35 MW, which would be roughly equal to the standby power draw of a single 70 MW shield. The gunships can also use cheaper fuel - Unsurprisingly, the cost per joule is higher with more advanced fuels. Pteracnium is used because of its power density, not cost efficiency. This is the reason He-3 remains in use at all.[1]

This reflects reality, where an entire squadron of previous generation fighter craft is easier to maintain and less expensive than even a single super advanced prototype stealth fighter.

A squadron is also capable of several squadron tactics and strategies that cannot be undertaken by a single unsupported gunship. For example, taking cover behind other gunships in the squadron. Why?

Take the stats of a Class III deflector (Lv.4) and multiply them by ten:
10x 80 HP
10x 4.6 HP/s
10x 10 MW
10x 4000 credits
=
800 HP
46 HP/s
100 MW
40000 credits

Compare them to a Plasma shield generator (Lv.8):
225 HP (~315 effective)
13.3 HP/s (~18.6 effective)
100 MW
65000 credits

As the math suggests, with proper circulation of damaged gunships in and out of cover, the squadron can sustain much heavier damage than a single advanced gunship.

Another tactic is safely gating without falling into an ambush
1) The squadron waits @ 100 ls from the gate
2) One gunship is sent through the gate.
3) The gunship checks within 100 ls of the gate in the other system for enemy ships.
4) The gunship returns through the gate.
5) The gunship radios the squadron all clear.
6) The squadron travels through the gate.

A squadron can also scout a greater area and carry more cargo.

The most important aspect, however, is the ability to threaten several different targets in several different locations simultaneously. For example, if there are ten bases but only one (super-)defender, dividing up the squadron would allow striking all ten at once, yielding 1 victory for the defender... and 9 losses.

In hindsight, these are fairly sophisticated tactics, and may be difficult to represent in an RTS.

... the average pilot quality will be greater if fewer gunships are being fielded.

Repeated participation in armed conflict results in compounded exposure to risk, and therefore a greater than usual tendancy to perish or suffer a permanent, crippling injury. As such, there tend to be very few veterans available to serve as ace pilots.

Similar to how it is far easier to conscript 10 peasants over 1 knight or train 10 recruits over 1 commando, it is also far easier to find 10 average pilots over 1 gunship ace.

The monetary cost for personnel is identical, e.g. US E-1 (Private) paygrade is 6.50 USD/hour (~1550 USD/month), multiply that by ten and compare it to 75 USD/hour for an elite Blackwater PMC.

These people are individuals with salaries that presumable care about self preservation, and thus have an incentive to upgrade their ships if it is possible for them to do so.

A basic salary will not be enough to afford the same equipment found on pilgrim ships. Pilgrims can only finance their upgrades by gambling their lives on attacking and looting enemies of the Commonwealth. Most lose.

(For example, an EI700 typically carries cargo worth significantly more than its equipment). Were it possible for everyone to easily refit their ships like the player, the light armament of so many of these freighters would, at the very least, be replaced with some salvaged turbolasers.

This is more likely to indicate that pirate attacks are too uncommon to justify the cost of an omni turbolaser + reactor upgrade + shield + 12-20 segments of armor on every freighter.

Where did you get your plan B from? I see it nowhere in game.

This is simply the logical conclusion of a series of desperate offensives: Attempt to end the war by assassinating the Ares leadership. However, Ares Prime is too well defended for a conventional attack...

Notes:

1. The previous point implies large ships and stations run on He-3, not pteracnium. A CSC could feasibly operate on an array of 150NX reactors while burning He-3, saving precious pteracnium and advanced reactors for the gunships. (This is one part of an in-development mod, tentitive title "Advanced Reactor Concepts")

[catfighter]

...with proper circulation of damaged gunships in and out of cover, the squadron can sustain much heavier damage than a single advanced gunship.

Definitely workable in theory, but as you yourself said, TVR:

...it is far easier to conscript 10 peasants over 1 knight or train 10 recruits over 1 commando, it is also far easier to find 10 average pilots over 1 gunship ace.

So it is extremely unlikely that any of the pilots would have the intelligence to work out such a system. Besides, who among them would have the timing and fine motor skills necessary to pull off such maneuvers?

And assuming these ships are operating at/near top speed, whenever a ship drops back to allow shield regeneration, it would would have to expend a small fortune in fuel to catch up again. (In-game if you slow down while pursuing an enemy with the same speed as you, you just can't catch up again unless they slow down as well.)

2) NAMI missiles are homing, thus cannot be dodged and can be fired off boresight.
4) Gunships in formation do not need to cluster in tail-chase, their maneuver stats are identical so all they need to do is copy the exact movements of the target Wolfen to cancel them out.

If this is done, the ships will not be facing the same direction as their target and thus will not be able to maintain perfect synchronization as their engines push them slowly off trajectory. And again, who's to say all the pilots have perfect timing?

---

It would be great if this were part of America: your pilots just aren't perfect. They make errors, fail to understand strategies, and occasionally do something that's just plain stupid.

As they become experienced their error chance drops and they gain better maneuverability/precision/etc.

[Atarlost]

The ICX is ineffective due to a programming error with target acquisition.

If ICX became as effective as you think with the phantom target bug fixed it would be nerfed into the ground because it would render projectiles completely obsolete and make the game boring. Either projectile HP would go way up or ICX damage would go down to prevent it from being effective against multiple missile attacks.

[Song]

The ICX is ineffective due to a programming error with target acquisition.

If ICX became as effective as you think with the phantom target bug fixed it would be nerfed into the ground because it would render projectiles completely obsolete and make the game boring. Either projectile HP would go way up or ICX damage would go down to prevent it from being effective against multiple missile attacks.

This might not be a bad thing though. Currently, you can be firing a state of the art nuclear howitzer at something, and it's taken out by a basic particle beam. It has no impact or strength to the projectile. Shot HP should be just another balancing variable that can be used to differentiate the weapons in the game. It would, however, take quite some time to rebalance ICX accordingly: I believe that without that bug it will be overpowered....but that can be fixed.

Certainly I'd love to see point defense be an option that works in CSC America. it would be awesome to have a point-defense frigate (or something set up as such) in place to intercept incoming warhammers from cometfalls that slipped through outer defenses. At the very least, it makes the ICX unit on the carrier less laughable.


(Worth noting also: The ICX is currently also bugged so that while the shot is green, the hiteffect is red)

[JohnBWatson]

A basic salary will not be enough to afford the same equipment found on pilgrim ships. Pilgrims can only finance their upgrades by gambling their lives on attacking and looting enemies of the Commonwealth. Most lose.

I see no reason why the professional Korolov escorts would make significantly less than the player. There's also the fact that the corporations deploying the freighters would be making an extremely poor financial decision by keeping escorts at all given the effectiveness that a single turbolaser cannon has relative to the lighter escort ships. Indeed, given the omnidirectional mount, even some of the higher end escort ships would be better off replaced with their cost in weaponry mounted directly on the freighter. Were the freighters armed with flensers, anything short of a pirate frigate wouldn't be able to even touch them, and the upgrade would pay for itself in a handful of trips.

[sun1404]

The escorts are more versatile, able to engage faraway threats without posing danger to the freighter itself. As of in-game mechanics, putting weapons on the freighter would be better, but if you want realism, those freighters are probably refitted to carry the most they can, while sacrificing equipments available.

By the way, Kolorov escort payments aren't that high. You can't even get a good reactor out of the entire Kolorov storyline. Other escorts aren't going to be much more successful.

[JohnBWatson]

The escorts are more versatile, able to engage faraway threats without posing danger to the freighter itself. As of in-game mechanics, putting weapons on the freighter would be better, but if you want realism, those freighters are probably refitted to carry the most they can, while sacrificing equipments available.

That would require that npc ships be fundamentally harder to refit than the player's, the point I originally set out to make.

By the way, Kolorov escort payments aren't that high. You can't even get a good reactor out of the entire Kolorov storyline. Other escorts aren't going to be much more successful.

The payment for escorting freighters grows with increased rank and the npc escorts have been at it for much longer than the player. If NPCs could refit their ships as easily as the player can, I'd expect to see at least a few of the escorts fielding non - stock weaponry.

[Song]

The escorts are more versatile, able to engage faraway threats without posing danger to the freighter itself. As of in-game mechanics, putting weapons on the freighter would be better, but if you want realism, those freighters are probably refitted to carry the most they can, while sacrificing equipments available.

That would require that npc ships be fundamentally harder to refit than the player's, the point I originally set out to make.

By the way, Kolorov escort payments aren't that high. You can't even get a good reactor out of the entire Kolorov storyline. Other escorts aren't going to be much more successful.

The payment for escorting freighters grows with increased rank and the npc escorts have been at it for much longer than the player. If NPCs could refit their ships as easily as the player can, I'd expect to see at least a few of the escorts fielding non - stock weaponry.

On the other hand, the player can "beat the record" for the most escorts, and gain rank very quickly. It may be that either:

1. The progression is collapsed for gameplay reasons (ok, it's this in reality)
2. Korolov doesn't employ many permenant pilots: people mostly do it as an odd-job.

Or....

3. The life expectancy for a korolov pilot is so low that other people don't get very far (possible, given that many journeyman missions run into frigates, and many escort pilots are flying things like the Ronin/B class deathtrap).

In terms of equipment setup difficulties.....I don't know. Currently this isn't used much as a balancing tool (although it would be a very good one) ingame. Guess we'll have to see how things are when America actually releases.

[JohnBWatson]

In terms of equipment setup difficulties.....I don't know. Currently this isn't used much as a balancing tool (although it would be a very good one) ingame. Guess we'll have to see how things are when America actually releases.

I'd certainly enjoy learning how that works as well. On that topic, the player is also able to repair their vessel instantly, both with healing items and at stations(the latter is a trait also shown by Korolov ships). I'd wonder whether other NPCs have this ability and, if so, why they don't use it, as well as what it actually costs stations to repair ships, given that they don't appear to have any repairing items on hand and patch spiders and the like, while providing free repairs, take time.

With regard to gameplay, I'm not sure what would be best. Adjusting every ship's loadout could get somewhat boring over time, and might be overpowered as well given how lethal a CSC armed with three salvaged Hecates would be. A CSC with 4 side - docked Aquilas firing two outward facing turreted Hecates and repairing instantly upon being hit would be practically invincible.

[catfighter]

...might be overpowered as well given how lethal a CSC armed with three salvaged Hecates would be. A CSC with 4 side - docked Aquilas firing two outward facing turreted Hecates and repairing instantly upon being hit would be practically invincible.

Oh gosh that sounds so utterly, awesomely,amazingly destructive I'm going to go mod myself that fleet to destroy right this second! In the middle of St. Katharine's! Muahahahahahaa!

---

You can't even get a good reactor out of the entire Kolorov storyline. Other escorts aren't going to be much more successful.

...the player is also able to repair their vessel instantly, both with healing items and at stations(the latter is a trait also shown by Korolov ships). I'd wonder whether other NPCs have this ability and, if so, why they don't use it...

Assuming that the pilots make a somewhat standard amount of credits, they would probably have to make a choice between being able to upgrade their ships' weapons/reactor/etc or purchasing repair services (both short and long-term).

[sun1404]

The player's ship is probably standard, but the freighters employed by Kolorov might be refitted for maximum cargo capacity.

[Atarlost]

The players' ships are new. The Wolfen was clearly the newest Pacifica design before the Britannia entered the game and that is obviously a cut rate piece of shovelware. The EI500 is, by the numbers, newer than any other EI freighter except the EI1700. The EI1700 is turbolaser equipped. The Sapphire is hard to date, but it's the only Zubrin product so Zubrin itself is probably quite new. The Freyr and Connie are so new they don't appear in the wild. They and the Manticore appear to be aimed at the Britannia contract but were obviously not cheap enough spaceframes. I think the Spartan is also implied to be new and the Raijin uses external weapon mounts. The Schoolbus might possibly be an exception for gameplay parity, but the pattern is pretty clear.

Everything else is old and predates modern modular installation or belongs to a faction that the player doesn't have an inside view of or is the Britannia.