CSC America

[TVR]

2) NAMI missiles are homing, thus cannot be dodged and can be fired off boresight.
4) Gunships in formation do not need to cluster in tail-chase, their maneuver stats are identical so all they need to do is copy the exact movements of the target Wolfen to cancel them out.

If this is done, the ships will not be facing the same direction as their target and thus will not be able to maintain perfect synchronization ...

A bore refers to a cannon bore, and boresight means there is line of sight (LoS) between the target and the bore.

Since gunships use fixed forward cannons, the bore faces the same direction as the ship. No boresight ("off boresight") implies the gunship is not facing the target. NAMI missiles can be fired even so, because they are homing and can perform course corrections after launch.

Various pursuit curves that maintain the same distance or reduce it can apply to a tail-chase scenario, merely copying the manuevers of the target is just the easiest one to illustrate.

[quote=""catfighter"]
It would be great if this were part of America: your pilots just aren't perfect. They make errors, fail to understand strategies, and occasionally do something that's just plain stupid.
[/quote]

It might be interesting to see a full emotion system affect the decisions that personnel make. Fear of being killed causing units to flee at low HP against orders, anger at seeing comrades shot down, trauma after a particularly fierce battle or atrocity. Things that remind the player that they aren't playing with autons.

That would require that npc ships be fundamentally harder to refit than the player's, the point I originally set out to make.

NPCs use the same ships (Wolfen, Sapphire, EI500) as the pilgrim.

Battle Arena gladiators commonly use custom loadouts.

An ingame anecdote mentions uparmoring a ship with polyceramic.

The exact same devices recovered from wrecked ships can be installed on the playership at any shipyard.

Manufacturers wouldn't produce so many devices and armors, Commonwealth stations wouldn't provide installation services, and weapons dealer stations wouldn't exist if the only ones who could use them were pilgrims.

Refitting civilian ships with military equipment can only go so far, though. It is an improvised measure. There are fundamental differences between consumer and milspec spaceframes. Though it could be an option in CSC America.

Most captains won't find a need to do it, because they don't travel from the New Beyond to the Outer Realm nor do they actively seek out space battles.

The stock models just happen to function perfectly well for their intended purpose and operating environment. Almost like they were designed for that.

The payment for escorting freighters grows with increased rank and the npc escorts have been at it for much longer than the player.

Ten missions at Korolov yields around 18000 credits... and 5 encounters with Charon Frigates, including the Kronosaurus.

Indeed, given the omnidirectional mount, even some of the higher end escort ships would be better off replaced with their cost in weaponry mounted directly on the freighter.

Freighters do not possess a true omnidirectional slot, just an omnidirectional adaptation of light weapons like the turbolaser. For example, it likely couldn't fit a howitzer. A Flenser cannon (3000 kg) is twice the mass of a turbolaser (1500 kg).

In all honesty, freighters shouldn't even be able to mount such heavy armor - They are cargo freighters, not warships.

A dedicated escort is more useful than self defense weaponry. Since freighters only need escorts while shipping valuable cargo through hostile systems, a single gunship (or many) can be scheduled to escort multiple freighters each month. This also means freighter crews do not need to receive tactical training nor undergo combat drills in gunnery, combat maneuvering and situational awareness.

Not to mention the security concerns of constantly having heavily armed freighters approach backwater colonies.

before the Britannia entered the game and that is obviously a cut rate piece of shovelware.

From a technical perspective, the Britannia is a vast improvement over the Centurion. It is 10% faster, much more heavily armed, and several times better protected. The stock model will defeat any of those other ships mentioned.

Its only real flaws are its enormous cost per unit (~170000) and limited production run.

Certainly I'd love to see point defense be an option that works in CSC America

Given CSCs lack shields, they would probably have to use heavy point defense instead.


CSC America could use a full ingame save/reload system if the singleplayer is a linear campaign. Windowed menu support would be a useful extension to the engine. Otherwise, if missions are dynamic, could try no-saving-permadeath as a gameplay mechanic.

On a side note, a simple algorithm for fixing radius weapons: Create a ring of projectiles along the circumference of a radius weapon. Use the resulting hit tests to determine whether the radius weapon hit the target or not. Some additional calculations can determine which sector was hit. This can even be implemented in TLISP.

[Atarlost]

Refitting civilian ships with military equipment can only go so far, though. It is an improvised measure. There are fundamental differences between consumer and milspec spaceframes.

...

before the Britannia entered the game and that is obviously a cut rate piece of shovelware.

From a technical perspective, the Britannia is a vast improvement over the Centurion. It is 10% faster, much more heavily armed, and several times better protected. The stock model will defeat any of those other ships mentioned.

Its only real flaws are its enormous cost per unit (~170000) and limited production run.

The stock model of the Brit will not beat a similarly specced variant of any playership and all playerships can support a similar loadout. For some that means having a drive upgrade mounted, but the Britannia is implied to use an SN2500, which provides ample power for a Titan 440 on top of the Britannia's loadout.

Of the playerships only the EI500, Connie, Sapphire, and Herc are civilian spaceframes. The others are all described as gunships.

The Brit could be explained away as corporate wellfare if the same manufacturer didn't also produce the Wolfen, but unless it's buffed in a way that cannot be duplicated it stands as proof that someone in procurement is not merely corrupt but stupid.

[catfighter]

A bore refers to a cannon bore, and boresight means there is line of sight (LoS) between the target and the bore.

Since gunships use fixed forward cannons, the bore faces the same direction as the ship. No boresight ("off boresight") implies the gunship is not facing the target. NAMI missiles can be fired even so, because they are homing and can perform course corrections after launch.

I am well aware. I only meant to point out that if the super-wolfen employs my strategy of slow weaving with a slight drift while omni-firing backwards then it can quite easily lose any ship with the same or lesser speed.

---

That would require that npc ships be fundamentally harder to refit than the player's, the point I originally set out to make.

Battle Arena gladiators commonly use custom loadouts.

This sounds like something that could be easily arranged with a little copy-pasting of code. It would be great to see Korolov escorts and even general system traffic all decked out.

Watch out pirates! Mess with the wrong ship and you might get a nasty little surprise.

---

CSC America could use a full ingame save/reload system if the singleplayer is a linear campaign. Windowed menu support would be a useful extension to the engine. Otherwise, if missions are dynamic, could try no-saving-permadeath as a gameplay mechanic.

A no-saving-permadeath would be nice, but those of us who can only play in short, scattered sessions would have a hard time getting anywhere. I think you should be allowed to save and each decision you make determines where you'll be heading next to prevent the game from being too linear.

---

The Brit could be explained away as corporate wellfare if the same manufacturer didn't also produce the Wolfen, but unless it's buffed in a way that cannot be duplicated it stands as proof that someone in procurement is not merely corrupt but stupid.

*sigh* So true...
[/crushingCynicism]
Sounds like a whole busload of people I know...

[JohnBWatson]

The players' ships are new. The Wolfen was clearly the newest Pacifica design before the Britannia entered the game and that is obviously a cut rate piece of shovelware. The EI500 is, by the numbers, newer than any other EI freighter except the EI1700. The EI1700 is turbolaser equipped. The Sapphire is hard to date, but it's the only Zubrin product so Zubrin itself is probably quite new. The Freyr and Connie are so new they don't appear in the wild. They and the Manticore appear to be aimed at the Britannia contract but were obviously not cheap enough spaceframes. I think the Spartan is also implied to be new and the Raijin uses external weapon mounts. The Schoolbus might possibly be an exception for gameplay parity, but the pattern is pretty clear.

Everything else is old and predates modern modular installation or belongs to a faction that the player doesn't have an inside view of or is the Britannia.

The Aquila is also new.

There's also the problem of outer realm Wolfens and EI500s bearing the same equipment that they had in Eridani. The latter ship does have an up - armed variant belonging to an NPC privateer, which only makes this more confusing.

---

NPCs use the same ships (Wolfen, Sapphire, EI500) as the pilgrim.

My best explanation for this is that either the player has somehow modified their ship to be more versatile than NPC ships or the player purchased a more easily modified variant of the ships(more on that lower down).

Battle Arena gladiators commonly use custom loadouts.

That only makes this more confusing. Desperate individuals who are willing to risk their lives in the arena for a handful of credits can refit their ships as easily as the player, but large, powerful corporations are still using the stock models for guards in areas where they are outclassed by an absurd degree, and traders in EI500s still use that turbolaser even when it can't even scratch the local enemies. For the latter, there is, at the very least, incentive to hock the useless weapon.

An ingame anecdote mentions uparmoring a ship with polyceramic.

The exact same devices recovered from wrecked ships can be installed on the playership at any shipyard.

Manufacturers wouldn't produce so many devices and armors, Commonwealth stations wouldn't provide installation services, and weapons dealer stations wouldn't exist if the only ones who could use them were pilgrims.

Most captains won't find a need to do it, because they don't travel from the New Beyond to the Outer Realm nor do they actively seek out space battles.

This points to the possibility that modifying the loadouts of ships is possible for everyone, but that begs the question of why so few people use it. If it is as unnecessary for the general population as you suggest, there would be no market incentive to build all those weapon and armor storefronts. Pilgrims, after all, are rarely as successful as the player, and are unlikely to be long term repeat customers.

The stock models just happen to function perfectly well for their intended purpose and operating environment. Almost like they were designed for that.

Then surely it wouldn't be worth the extra cost to make it possible to refit these ships. Versatility is expensive.

Indeed, a possible explanation is that the player's ships are older models, given their inferior starting weaponry, produced while personal spacecraft were less common and the consumer base for them was made up of people more likely to want to add modifications.

Freighters do not possess a true omnidirectional slot, just an omnidirectional adaptation of light weapons like the turbolaser. For example, it likely couldn't fit a howitzer. A Flenser cannon (3000 kg) is twice the mass of a turbolaser (1500 kg).

While this is not seen in gameplay, I'd like it to be. Once ship changing is implemented(the starting ships would likely be too weak to survive the Outer Realm with this change), weapon slots could be designated as light, medium, heavy, and superheavy, with matching designations for weaponry. For example, a light slot could mount a single fire weapon like the Tev9, a medium slot could mount dual weapons as well, a heavy slot could mount howitzers and the NAMI heavy, and a superheavy slot could mount weapons that currently take two slots, such as the APA.

Freighters do not possess a true omnidirectional slot, just an omnidirectional adaptation of light weapons like the turbolaser. For example, it likely couldn't fit a howitzer. A Flenser cannon (3000 kg) is twice the mass of a turbolaser (1500 kg).

In all honesty, freighters shouldn't even be able to mount such heavy armor - They are cargo freighters, not warships.

A dedicated escort is more useful than self defense weaponry. Since freighters only need escorts while shipping valuable cargo through hostile systems, a single gunship (or many) can be scheduled to escort multiple freighters each month. This also means freighter crews do not need to receive tactical training nor undergo combat drills in gunnery, combat maneuvering and situational awareness.

Not to mention the security concerns of constantly having heavily armed freighters approach backwater colonies.

Escorting a freighter 10 times costs, according to your estimates, 18000 credits. Losing a freighter costs more. It simply makes sense to arm and armor them better.

Especially considering the escorts are not Korolov property. They cannot be relied upon, and freighters that can't find an escort are often sent out alone.

---

On a side note, a simple algorithm for fixing radius weapons: Create a ring of projectiles along the circumference of a radius weapon. Use the resulting hit tests to determine whether the radius weapon hit the target or not. Some additional calculations can determine which sector was hit. This can even be implemented in TLISP.

That seems like it would cause a very large amount of lag. Better to simply fix the problem conventionally. Ad - hoc solutions become exponentially less desirable as their drawbacks compound.

---

For some that means having a drive upgrade mounted, but the Britannia is implied to use an SN2500, which provides ample power for a Titan 440 on top of the Britannia's loadout.

Many ships have their own built in reactors. This is assumed to be any ship that doesn't have one equipped unless stated otherwise.

Indeed, a possible reason for building the Britannia is the fact that the Centurion X does canonically use the SN2500.

---

Of the playerships only the EI500, Connie, Sapphire, and Herc are civilian spaceframes. The others are all described as gunships.

A gunship in Transcendence is implied to be like a rifle in the American frontier. Civilians are likely to want a means of defending themselves and their stations, and mercenary missions are often lucrative. The militia, indeed, is simply a bunch of armed civilians, albeit supported by the government.

---

The Brit could be explained away as corporate wellfare if the same manufacturer didn't also produce the Wolfen, but unless it's buffed in a way that cannot be duplicated it stands as proof that someone in procurement is not merely corrupt but stupid.

Remember that new military technology sells for a lot at civilian stations, but likely doesn't cost that much to produce. The Ares aren't spending the cost of a small army on the APC.

It's supply and demand. The only source of the new military armament for civilians is the wreckage of battles and sales from profit - seeking privateers. Naturally, this causes the selling price to be higher than what the CH is likely charging the CW(and likewise disproportionate to the amount of resources the Ares are spending on each ship. If the Ares could build a fleet of Tundras for every one Chasm or Sentry, they would not be building Chasms and Sentries).

[Atarlost]

You're reading *way* too much into game mechanics.

NPCs don't use custom loadouts because custom loadouts require work. George has not considered the increase in fidelity worth the trouble. And he's pretty much right. Civilian ships gate on threat so they only matter if you accidentally instagib them with a stray howitzer shot. It's less work to use existing faction appropriate heavy gunships than to make more variants of the playerships and players aren't supposed to be fighting CW/Fleet designs outside rogue fleet, where they're appropriate, and the arena where the work has been put into randomizing them.

George can either sink several hours into creating ship variants at each level with massive table trees to provide a variety of appropriate equipment, or he can fix a bug that matters or make real new content or get the servers upgraded or make promotional materials. You're the first person to come along and demand this sort of attention to detail and George hasn't been working on D&O since you joined. 1.5 is just engine changes to support EP and before those I think he was working on Anacreon.

[JohnBWatson]

You're reading *way* too much into game mechanics.

NPCs don't use custom loadouts because custom loadouts require work. George has not considered the increase in fidelity worth the trouble. And he's pretty much right. Civilian ships gate on threat so they only matter if you accidentally instagib them with a stray howitzer shot. It's less work to use existing faction appropriate heavy gunships than to make more variants of the playerships and players aren't supposed to be fighting CW/Fleet designs outside rogue fleet, where they're appropriate, and the arena where the work has been put into randomizing them.

George can either sink several hours into creating ship variants at each level with massive table trees to provide a variety of appropriate equipment, or he can fix a bug that matters or make real new content or get the servers upgraded or make promotional materials. You're the first person to come along and demand this sort of attention to detail and George hasn't been working on D&O since you joined. 1.5 is just engine changes to support EP and before those I think he was working on Anacreon.

Calm down, Atar. We're discussing this to speculate on how we'll be arming our ships in CSC America(there must be some means of defeating Phobii, which varies from difficult to impossible with standard weaponry depending on how much more advanced the units' AI will be than that of our wingmen in the main game), as well as to speculate on Transcendence's developing canon, not to demand some sort of massive changes to the system.

In addition, there are plenty of mods that alter loadout. The code's already out there if George wanted to revamp the entire spawning system, though once again I agree that there are much higher priorities.

A simpler solution is simply tell ships to stop spawning as guards where they're more detriment than help. Just get rid of the Wolfens(and the other ships like them) past mid - ungoverned space, and replace the EI500s later on with something else. Of course, you bring up a point about gating on threat, and yet another means of solving the problems we've discussed is to fix 'civilian' AI so that it no longer wanders into situations where it's in danger. This, indeed, would also fix the larger problem of freighters plowing into hostile stations, minefields, and white dwarf stars.

On that point, it would also be cool to see civilian ships in CSC America fleeing dangerous areas, and perhaps even requesting your assistance. Pilots with *noble* personalities might fulfill these requests without being ordered to do so, and pilots who are *cynical* might refuse to risk their lives for people who they don't even know.

[catfighter]

George can either sink several hours into creating ship variants at each level with massive table trees to provide a variety of appropriate equipment, or he can fix a bug that matters or make real new content or get the servers upgraded or make promotional materials.

Heck I've already started doing that for Korolov guards/escorts and it wouldn't be too hard to modify the other CW ships. You don't have to chew out Watson for that request when there are hundreds of other coders who would probably be very happy to write a small chunk of such a project. If a hundred people each wrote a single line of code we'd have more than enough to reoutfit a whole bunch of ships.

---

While this is not seen in gameplay, I'd like it to be. Once ship changing is implemented(the starting ships would likely be too weak to survive the Outer Realm with this change), weapon slots could be designated as light, medium, heavy, and superheavy, with matching designations for weaponry. For example, a light slot could mount a single fire weapon like the Tev9, a medium slot could mount dual weapons as well, a heavy slot could mount howitzers and the NAMI heavy, and a superheavy slot could mount weapons that currently take two slots, such as the APA.

Sounds doable. Assuming each device uses a standard port for connection to ship controls, I could easily see extra hookups (slots) being purchasable/installable. This would certainly limit weapon choices in America and force the player to decide between their favorite two archcannons.

---

Remember that new military technology sells for a lot at civilian stations, but likely doesn't cost that much to produce. The Ares aren't spending the cost of a small army on the APC.

It's supply and demand. The only source of the new military armament for civilians is the wreckage of battles and sales from profit - seeking privateers. Naturally, this causes the selling price to be higher than what the CH is likely charging the CW(and likewise disproportionate to the amount of resources the Ares are spending on each ship. If the Ares could build a fleet of Tundras for every one Chasm or Sentry, they would not be building Chasms and Sentries).

Money makes the world go 'round.

But the war is very taxing to both sides and the Ares might not always have the available materials to build a big ship. Besides there is always the multiple-target advantage discussed in the Super Wolfen-VS-Wolfen-fleet scenario.

[sun1404]

The mods that randomize ship load outs are surely interesting, but by no means balanced. It is easy work to make ships with various load outs. It is very hard to find the right balance. Leaving NPC ships with the standard items is more reasonable.

The player have only one goal: to reach the core. NPCs have much more to their lives. If I were a civilian in Trans universe I'd rather spend my money on entertainments and luxury foods than on expensive equipment on my ship. If you don't actively seek combat, high level equipment will suck your wallet dry by using up fuel. To equip your ship with expensive weapons and shields that suck up expensive fuel just in case you run into some pirate isn't a really good choice in long-term.

The guards, also, are reasonable to be standard. The corporates and the CW won't have enough time to actually choose their guards. They just use standard ships, like everyone do in the present. No one bother to equip their guards with the best weapon they can find. Most building guards don't even carry any weapons. They are civilians anyway.

[JohnBWatson]

The guards, also, are reasonable to be standard. The corporates and the CW won't have enough time to actually choose their guards. They just use standard ships, like everyone do in the present. No one bother to equip their guards with the best weapon they can find. Most building guards don't even carry any weapons. They are civilians anyway.

The Transcendence universe and the modern world are quite different. Transcendence is more like the wild west.

In any case, stations represent hundred thousands of credits in investment and in many cases millions of lives. It stands to reason that they would take their own defense as seriously as a nation of that size, and arm them with reasonable weaponry.

[sun1404]

The CW or even the Corporate wouldn't have the required fund to actually place high-tech guards at every stations. They do equip their more important stations with defenses.

[JohnBWatson]

The CW or even the Corporate wouldn't have the required fund to actually place high-tech guards at every stations. They do equip their more important stations with defenses.

In late game, some defensive ships are outright detrimental. The Ronin series and the Wolfens rarely even damage the targets due to the disparity in damage types, they die almost instantly, and they get in the way of more competent defenders.

Considering most stations have at least a handful of useful weapons on hand, it makes sense that they'd provide their sentries with them.

[catfighter]

The CW or even the Corporate wouldn't have the required fund to actually place high-tech guards at every stations. They do equip their more important stations with defenses.

In late game, some defensive ships are outright detrimental. The Ronin series and the Wolfens rarely even damage the targets due to the disparity in damage types, they die almost instantly, and they get in the way of more competent defenders.

Considering most stations have at least a handful of useful weapons on hand, it makes sense that they'd provide their sentries with them.

Unfortunately, the reactors necessary to power those weapons seem to be somewhat less common.

I think this would actually be a pretty big deal in America. In Transcendence there are lots of ultra-high-tech weapons languishing in the depths of station storage units, but not that many reactors powerful enough to handle them. Balance-wise I don't know whether it would be better to keep it this way or have less weapons/more reactors, but it would definitely have a major effect on reoutfitting your ships. I suppose there's always Hauri-farming for SN250s or whatever it is they use but otherwise it would be death-by-boredom docking with every station in the galaxy to make sure your fleet can use all those salvaged Hecates cannons.

[JohnBWatson]

The CW or even the Corporate wouldn't have the required fund to actually place high-tech guards at every stations. They do equip their more important stations with defenses.

In late game, some defensive ships are outright detrimental. The Ronin series and the Wolfens rarely even damage the targets due to the disparity in damage types, they die almost instantly, and they get in the way of more competent defenders.

Considering most stations have at least a handful of useful weapons on hand, it makes sense that they'd provide their sentries with them.

Unfortunately, the reactors necessary to power those weapons seem to be somewhat less common.

I think this would actually be a pretty big deal in America. In Transcendence there are lots of ultra-high-tech weapons languishing in the depths of station storage units, but not that many reactors powerful enough to handle them. Balance-wise I don't know whether it would be better to keep it this way or have less weapons/more reactors, but it would definitely have a major effect on reoutfitting your ships. I suppose there's always Hauri-farming for SN250s or whatever it is they use but otherwise it would be death-by-boredom docking with every station in the galaxy to make sure your fleet can use all those salvaged Hecates cannons.

A good point. CSC America should either provide some reason as to why stations carry only one of every reactor, or change that entirely. In Transcendence it's not too much of a problem due to having only one ship, but in an RTS it would certainly need readjustment.

[Song]

A good point. CSC America should either provide some reason as to why stations carry only one of every reactor, or change that entirely. In Transcendence it's not too much of a problem due to having only one ship, but in an RTS it would certainly need readjustment.

Just because there's a way on doesn't mean stationmaster should overreact(or) to the situation.

[JohnBWatson]

Just because there's a way on doesn't mean stationmaster should overreact(or) to the situation.

Stations carrying one and exactly one of every reactor isn't practical for the station no matter how you look at it. It's just less noticeable in Transcendence due to the fact that the player has only one ship, and players rarely loot the stations that carry reactors due to the fact that they're all friendly and members of powerful factions.