CSC America: Athena class gunship

[Song]

Eh...the problem with long-range combat is that it relies on a lot to get it actually working in a way that doesn't also work very well as short range. Even if the ship is sluggish, all it takes is something deciding to go in front of it, and 4 thermocannons will shred it. A weapon with failsafe *might* work.....but you still run into the problem that when you're firing a long-range weapon in a pitched battle, you're shooting at everything in front of you....centurions doing the distraction job will take damage or die as a result. And they'll die long before the phobos behind them does. It also only takes the AI phobos ignoring the 'distraction' and going to the priority target (which is the best tactic, since a phobos can safely ignore ANYTHING that's gunship-sized except the hypothetical Athena), and a slow, unagile gunship is going to disintegrate in a few hits. This isn't to say that it's not possible to make it work....it just seems challenging.

[JohnBWatson]

The obvious weapon choice for a top of tech tree ship is EI's Plasma Cannon. The weapon is flawed (it either needs to not interact or needs HP comparable to its damage) but properly fixed is the most powerful weapon produced by a Commonwealth associated manufacturer.

The problem with this is a short range, high damage weapon has little use. Getting close enough to an Ares capital ship to use it is a death sentence, unless it's powerful enough to destroy APA shots before they hit.

If the Plasma Cannon is modified to be capable of this, however, the ion reflector could be a worthwhile choice. Here's how I envision such a design:

Armor: High plasma and thermo resist, high health.

Shield: Ion reflector

Weapon: Plasma Cannon, modified to be non - interactive with energy weapons and capable of destroying APA fire.

Device: A point defense weapon capable of neutralizing the APA shots that will inevitably get through the plasma cannon. Could fire Plasma cannon shots and be explained as a ventilation system for excess plasma, re-purposed for point defense.

Device: Patcher arm.

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This potentially puts all four main gunships into set roles: Centurions as scouts and cannon-fodder (although the wolfen would make a better scout), the Centurion/X as a defensive fighter and counter to the chasm, the Britannia as a swarm-buster (which wouldn't even need a fix for the radius bug...just an increase on the damage area of the NM900), and the Athena as a ship for busting heavy armor.

The Fleet doesn't consider pilots expendable, and certainly not to the degree that they can have 'cannon fodder'. Remember, losing two centurion wingmen gets you a negative sounding mission complete text. I would suggest some manner of scout auton in the tech tree. It would have a viable use, be replaceable, and not be out of character for the Fleet.

The Centurion X can't counter the Chasm. It has a worse weapon, worse shield, and worse armor. It appears to be designed for fighting Sandstorms and Tundras.

The Brit works as a swarm buster, but the Aquila is far better for that role. The real strength of Brits is the ability to quickly and easily raze Communes. Bombard(attack with longest range weapon only, staying as far as possible), pick off guards, then go in with missile pods and destroy the sentries. They could also fight capital ships in the manner described earlier, attacking with their kscs until damage is sufficient, then finishing them off with missile pods.

I like the idea of a new gunship specialized for destroying capital ships. A missile ship would be most reliable, but if a gunship could be made to work in that role, that would also be interesting.

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I really like that idea, it's a simple yet fitting answer to the criteria: No new devices, no super weapons, yet spectacularly strong, and probably very cool to see. And a glaring weakness: Slow to maneuver, like a weapon platform. I'd suggest have it's weapons on swivel, so it can effective aim at long range. It would probably do fine against anything coming from long range, but if anything gets too close then problems arise.

I like this because: 1. It's a relatively simple choice. 2. The weakness would be a tactical weakness, and not straight-up weakness against something (Ex. Not just 'this ship is weak against fighters/against Thermo weapons/etc.' But 'Only effective at long range.') You can strife to keep the enemies at long range, and use the ship to it's full potential. I think it'll promote more strategy and critical thinking than just 'only deploy this against Sandstorms.' The player must try to control battlefield in order to maximize Athena's effectiveness, maybe by sending Centurions into the enemies' rank, making them stop coming close and instead fight with the Centurions, and be shredded by the Athena's firepower.

That seems like it would result in quite a bit of friendly fire. In addition, Phobii and Deimoses would still easily destroy them.

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Eh...the problem with long-range combat is that it relies on a lot to get it actually working in a way that doesn't also work very well as short range. Even if the ship is sluggish, all it takes is something deciding to go in front of it, and 4 thermocannons will shred it. A weapon with failsafe *might* work.....but you still run into the problem that when you're firing a long-range weapon in a pitched battle, you're shooting at everything in front of you....centurions doing the distraction job will take damage or die as a result. And they'll die long before the phobos behind them does. It also only takes the AI phobos ignoring the 'distraction' and going to the priority target (which is the best tactic, since a phobos can safely ignore ANYTHING that's gunship-sized except the hypothetical Athena), and a slow, unagile gunship is going to disintegrate in a few hits. This isn't to say that it's not possible to make it work....it just seems challenging.

A long range missile would need high speed(to prevent it from being destroyed by an ALT burst), and would not require high maneuverability. It would therefore be highly effective at long range, but more unwieldy in close range combat.

[sun1404]

Then perhaps some kind of cheap autos for recon/distraction would be needed. Or give the Athena 'no friendly fire'. It'd be understandable, the Athena being at the top of the tech tree, and more of a weapon platform than a ship (Turrets do have no friendly fire) I'd say even a Phobos can't survive four Thermo cannons doing a sustained volley for long. Even more so if you have multiple Athenas firing at one Phobos. It'll go down pretty quickly.

Or if the Athena use some kind of long range missiles as John suggest, it would also make it effective at long range but not at short range (Tracking, even barely maneuverable tracking, is better than swivel at long range)

Maybe have the Athena use very fast, slow-turning tracking missiles that fragments into a dozen more maneuverable missiles when close to target, and bombard the target from multiple directions. The fragmented missiles would be very accurate, but only show up if the main missile can get near enough to the target. And they'll be very short-lived. So they can't travel more than, say, 20 ls. But they're going to hit if the main missile was going to hit.

Maybe have Athena's weapon inflict special effects? Like ionize, device damage, weapon lock (like the Sung hack) It would give the Athena advantage against any ships it can target from long range, so that if said ships do get close they'll be relatively harmless. If the Athenas were to be ambushed though, they would be in serious trouble.

[PM]

Device disrupt is crippling to Ares.

[JohnBWatson]

Then perhaps some kind of cheap autos for recon/distraction would be needed. Or give the Athena 'no friendly fire'. It'd be understandable, the Athena being at the top of the tech tree, and more of a weapon platform than a ship (Turrets do have no friendly fire) I'd say even a Phobos can't survive four Thermo cannons doing a sustained volley for long. Even more so if you have multiple Athenas firing at one Phobos. It'll go down pretty quickly.

I like the idea of thermo cannons having a place in CSC America, especially considering they're one of the few CW weapons that can tear through Ares units so effectively. However, I don't think they'd work against capital ships due to the turrets.

Or if the Athena use some kind of long range missiles as John suggest, it would also make it effective at long range but not at short range (Tracking, even barely maneuverable tracking, is better than swivel at long range)

Maybe have the Athena use very fast, slow-turning tracking missiles that fragments into a dozen more maneuverable missiles when close to target, and bombard the target from multiple directions. The fragmented missiles would be very accurate, but only show up if the main missile can get near enough to the target. And they'll be very short-lived. So they can't travel more than, say, 20 ls. But they're going to hit if the main missile was going to hit.

Given that the missiles are designed for taking down capital ships, splitting before impact would be a disadvantage because of how armor segments work. I'd like to outfit some Aquilae with Medusas, though.

Maybe have Athena's weapon inflict special effects? Like ionize, device damage, weapon lock (like the Sung hack) It would give the Athena advantage against any ships it can target from long range, so that if said ships do get close they'll be relatively harmless. If the Athenas were to be ambushed though, they would be in serious trouble.

Brilliant. I move that whatever the Athena ends up being, we give it some means of inflicting device disrupt.

[catfighter]

Maybe have the Athena use very fast, slow-turning tracking missiles that fragments into a dozen more maneuverable missiles when close to target, and bombard the target from multiple directions. The fragmented missiles would be very accurate, but only show up if the main missile can get near enough to the target. And they'll be very short-lived. So they can't travel more than, say, 20 ls. But they're going to hit if the main missile was going to hit.

Ooh, I love missiles like that! They make such pretty little arcs of doom in the scanners! That would be nice as an extension of the M-series. I modded the experimental M12 Falling Star missile like that, so it would be cool to see it on the Athen with a NAMI heavy if someone wanted the code. Unfortunately, Watson was right and we should probably stick to impact damage.

Since the Athena seems to be shaping up to be a long-range missileship, it would have to be decided what sort of launcher it would use: NAMI, thermo cannons, or maybe even an entirely new launcher. (Probably not believable, though. Why would the fleet get an entirely new device with new ammo specifically for this one model?)

This potentially puts all four main gunships into set roles: Centurions as scouts and cannon-fodder (although the wolfen would make a better scout), the Centurion/X as a defensive fighter and counter to the chasm, the Britannia as a swarm-buster (which wouldn't even need a fix for the radius bug...just an increase on the damage area of the NM900), and the Athena as a ship for busting heavy armor.

The Fleet doesn't consider pilots expendable, and certainly not to the degree that they can have 'cannon fodder'. Remember, losing two centurion wingmen gets you a negative sounding mission complete text. I would suggest some manner of scout auton in the tech tree. It would have a viable use, be replaceable, and not be out of character for the Fleet.

If the fleet got hold of a remote-controlled tanking auton, it would fit rather nicely into the cannon-fodder role.

Device disrupt is crippling to Ares.

Brilliant. I move that whatever the Athena ends up being, we give it some means of inflicting device disrupt.

The ideas seem to be leaning toward the ship being a long-distance missileship (or possibly gunship), so how is that going to be incorporated? A very short range and risky weapon is an "electric ram," where the ship actually has to make contact with the enemy, but has incredible EMP/disruption. Something similar to whatever it is Dwarg Masters use (I forget the name) would be easily shot down by turrets, but it could be part of the strategic battle to figure out how to get said bolt around the turret fire.

[PM]

EMP is also effective against smaller Ares gunships. Deimos and Phobos are immune to EMP (but not device damage/disrupt).

[JohnBWatson]

EMP is also effective against smaller Ares gunships. Deimos and Phobos are immune to EMP (but not device damage/disrupt).

Unfortunately, the only gunships that EMP would really be useful for get most of their defense from shielding.

[Song]

EMP is also effective against smaller Ares gunships. Deimos and Phobos are immune to EMP (but not device damage/disrupt).

Unfortunately, the only gunships that EMP would really be useful for get most of their defense from shielding.

Also, EMP makes things spin....it's very hard to kill a large target with internal compartments that's rotating, even when you're a player. The AI doesn't have much chance unless it's using something absurd like quadruple katanas or a custom passthrough weapon. A device-disrupt thing would work quite nicely for weakening the ares capital ships. It would also allow this thing to actually be a close-range gunship......ion reflector to get close, ion disruptor/s to knock out the shield and weapons, then a single large weapon (fusionfire, Mk.V, tritium-cannon, thermo cannon, NAMI heavy or EI plasma cannon) to rake over the ship until it's dead. Might be too powerful, but if it's expensive or requires support from other ships to protect it from small craft with positron guns.....it could work. For armor, ithalium armor with ion-resistance paste would give it good stats against the APA and hecates, tolerable performance against lightning cannons, and appalling performance against positron cannons.


I'm not sold on long-range combat....it detracts from having a high tier gunship if it sits at the back and shoots missiles. It also relies too much on highly unreliable tactics ('distract with lesser ships' only works when those lesser ships are a threat or the enemy is stupid), with a high danger of friendly-fire. I do like the idea of missileships....but not as the top-tier gunship. If it's using missiles, it should be at a closer range to augment its guns.

[PM]

The large Ares targets, Deimos and Phobos, are already immune to EMP. The point of EMP is to disable small but deadly stuff, especially those with positron cannons. Sentry turrets, which are ships, have no shields.

[bzm3r]

A device-disrupt thing would work quite nicely for weakening the ares capital ships. It would also allow this thing to actually be a close-range gunship......ion reflector to get close, ion disruptor/s to knock out the shield and weapons, then a single large weapon (fusionfire, Mk.V, tritium-cannon, thermo cannon, NAMI heavy or EI plasma cannon) to rake over the ship until it's dead. Might be too powerful, but if it's expensive or requires support from other ships to protect it from small craft with positron guns.....it could work.

Sorry to toot the horn of my lore idea for of having ships with "virtual crews" again, but if we are going down the device disrupt route (so, the Athena is able to "hack into" Ares ships'), then it *really* fits well with the lore of the Athena being manned by virtual crews similar to the citizens of Eternity Port.

In order to address Shrike's "it might be too powerful" concern, the weakness of Athenas could be that they have to be babysit by larger ships while fighting. That is, as the ship takes internal damage, parts of the "virtual crew" would have to be evacuated, and if there's no suitable ship nearby, they would simply be permanently lost.

I also think "virtual crews" would fit in well with the crew dynamics in CSC America: using the threat of "virtualizing" against mutinous crew, or attempting to recruit virtual crews to use the otherwise powerful Athena from friendly crew factions, and so on. They could also represent yet another "crew group" that has to be bargained with.

I know the current argument against "virtual crews" is that it doesn't fit the "character of the Commonwealth", but that's very subjective and arguable. Isn't it? Don't wars change characters anyway?

[PM]

Re: too-powerful
With Phobos being one of the strongest ships in the game, and something that Commonwealth has no means to stop, there is no such thing as too powerful, unless Athena uses level 11+ weapons to one-hit kill everything. Device disrupt is not too powerful, and an ion weapon will not bring down capital ships quickly, only weaken them. If the Athena needs to kill capitals singlehandedly and quickly, it will need some form of WMD (or absurd multi-hit weapon) to damage interiors.

[sun1404]

Granted, focusing damage on one armor segment is the best way to kill a capital ship, theoretically. In practice, the AI rarely care about this. Fighters/gunships circle targets and change assault direction often. Some just go completely random. So unless an AI upgrade is due, I think a weapon that do damage to multiple segments at once would be more effective -- at least for the AI. And I don't think it'll be easy to make the AI effectively aim one segment. Such weapon would reduce the chance of many attacks being wasted on non-critical segments, and also heighten the chance for surrounding gunships to kill the target, since they will be firing at ALL segments.

And on top of that, fragmenting into multiple missiles looks cool, which is recommended for the Athena.

Also, I like the 'virtual crew' idea, but it'll be hard to implement it as it is now described. More specifically, I like the idea of:

1. The Athena needing a big ship as a 'base'. Maybe the CSC could command a maximum of, say, three Athenas, and if you want more you'll need an Aquila, or a freighter, to house the Athenas' virtual pilots. Maybe make it so that the Athenas can't go too far from it's base, reasoned as information can't be traded fast enough from such far distance.

2. I think, maybe, if we're going to have some kind of 'experience system', like a Centurion that survives a long time can get better in combat (which is a good way to promote crew value, that is, promote taking effort to save crews rather than dispensing them.), if we're going to have an experience system like that, make the Athena have a 'shared experience' Even if one Athena dies, the new one retains it's predecessor's experience, fighting as good as a veteran, or at least retain a part of that. Also, if multiple Athenas are in service, all of them would contribute to the shared experience pool, enabling rapid veteran training. This is potentially game breaking in the long run, but if the Athena is at the top of the tech tree, and only become available in very late game, then it shouldn't be too much of a problem

If permanently shared experience is too overpowered, then let the experience be stored on the base, so that as long as the base live, all Athenas are veterans with accumulated experience, but if the base is destroyed, all gathered experience is lost, just like if a normal Centurion die.

And again: Virtual crew also sounds cool, and player would surely want to try it out.

[JohnBWatson]

The large Ares targets, Deimos and Phobos, are already immune to EMP. The point of EMP is to disable small but deadly stuff, especially those with positron cannons. Sentry turrets, which are ships, have no shields.

While this is true, anything that could get close enough to EMP them could destroy them outright anyways.

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With Phobos being one of the strongest ships in the game, and something that Commonwealth has no means to stop, there is no such thing as too powerful, unless Athena uses level 11+ weapons to one-hit kill everything. Device disrupt is not too powerful, and an ion weapon will not bring down capital ships quickly, only weaken them. If the Athena needs to kill capitals singlehandedly and quickly, it will need some form of WMD (or absurd multi-hit weapon) to damage interiors.

I agree. It's either the plasma cannon or long range missiles, and I'm not entirely confident in an AI's ability to block shots with the plasma cannon.

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And I don't think it'll be easy to make the AI effectively aim one segment.

Though exact aiming isn't really possible with the set of facings we have, targeting a general area would be easy enough.

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2. I think, maybe, if we're going to have some kind of 'experience system', like a Centurion that survives a long time can get better in combat (which is a good way to promote crew value, that is, promote taking effort to save crews rather than dispensing them.), if we're going to have an experience system like that, make the Athena have a 'shared experience' Even if one Athena dies, the new one retains it's predecessor's experience, fighting as good as a veteran, or at least retain a part of that. Also, if multiple Athenas are in service, all of them would contribute to the shared experience pool, enabling rapid veteran training. This is potentially game breaking in the long run, but if the Athena is at the top of the tech tree, and only become available in very late game, then it shouldn't be too much of a problem

If permanently shared experience is too overpowered, then let the experience be stored on the base, so that as long as the base live, all Athenas are veterans with accumulated experience, but if the base is destroyed, all gathered experience is lost, just like if a normal Centurion die.

I like this.

Furthermore, I believe that there's a way to integrate this with the storyline in a way that is not out of character for the Fleet and works well in gameplay. One post down I'll describe what I mean.

[JohnBWatson]

Athena class support gunship

Hull: 5x Ithalium armor

Shield: Ion reflector

Armament: Omnidirectional Plasma Cannon
NAMI Heavy + M7 Raven

Device: Patcher arm

Code: Select all

M7 Raven: Commissioned for the Athena project, the M7 is an M2 missile fitted with minimal tracking capability and additional fuel stocks, and modified to utilize its explosive power in a much more concentrated blast designed to cripple the heavily armored dreadnoughts of the Ares fleet. Its incredible range is reliant on extensive AI support for targeting assistance, thus, the Athena gunship is the only vessel capable of fielding this missile.

Even as the war in the Outer Realm grew increasingly unfavorable to the Fleet, sentiments at home were tepid, and total loss seemed all but certain in a matter of months. Though the underfunded Fleet labs worked tirelessly to find a solution to the seemingly infinite problems that daunted the Fleet's admiralty, it seemed more and more impossible to do so with each flawed design. The howitzers put forward by Makayev lacked the damage to harm Phobii before the inevitably massive and unwieldy ships that fielded them were chased down and destroyed. The Katana, long seen as the fleet's hope, was, in practice, subpar, and unable to provide a sufficient counter to Ares swarm tactics. Even their defenses, long relied upon in Fleet tactical doctrine, were beginning to show their age, and as more and more Centurion pilots lost their lives, the increasing strife from piracy on the homefront left most of the skilled and motivated pilots among the ranks of the militia. Still, the valiant engineers continued to search for a solution, if only because the strain of constant work kept their minds from contemplating the lives that their previous failures had put into jeopardy. At long last, they came to a consensus.

A missileship could provide the mobility that was needed to outpace the Phobii, while still dealing enough damage to counter them. EI's stock of plasma cannons, commercially doomed due to their weakness in ranged combat and extensive power requirements, could be bought up cheaply and fielded as a swarm-busting weapon. Finally, they came to terms with the fact that shields could not alone give a gunship survivability. Thus, they turned to an alternative strategy. Using Kabuto's new Ion Reflector, the next generation of gunships could make even the lethal burst fire of Lightning Turrets easily survivable. When these shields collapsed from encounters with the Ares' new positron weaponry, ithalium armor would keep the ship safe long enough, though at a premium. Tying the ship together would be a new distributed artificial intelligence developed in secret following the Luminous debacle, which would be capable of improving itself over repeated exposure to combat and could not perish or mutiny like so many of the Fleet's human pilots.

The gunship they had made wasn't perfect. It relied on outmaneuvering capital ships, and could not engage them outright. Its defenses, though effective, still faced challenges from the devastating micronukes fielded by the Ares. Most importantly, the powerful AI that gave the ship its edge needed to remain close to a host vessel, a modified Aquila, to function in combat. Still, the Fleet engineers rejoiced. They had created something elegant, yet powerful. Immortal, yet capable of learning. Brilliant, yet infinitely courageous. The Athena, as they named it, seemed capable of finally ending the war.