Revamping the Outer Realm

[JohnBWatson]

With all of the excitement around CSC America, I decided now might be the time to discuss desirable and implementable changes to the outer realm, which can be added in through mods. This includes expanding the missions available, adding content to the less expanded upon factions, and balancing existing content.

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1. Fixing squadrons

The idea of commanding a group of ships, while interesting, has been implemented in a way that does not show its true potential. The many formations are cool looking, but largely impractical. The commands, while sometimes useful, lack the option to use tactics. This is easy enough to fix.

a) Remove superfluous formation buttons, and fix the first formation to be more practical by spacing out the ships based on their size rather than a constant.

b) Add a 'Defend leader' order that causes wingmen to attack the hostile ship closest to the player.

c) Add a 'Bombard target' order that causes wingmen to attack the player's target with their longest range weapon, staying as far away as possible.

d) Cause Fleet wingmen to be unwilling to target non - hostile units, in a similar manner to Volkov. (This may already be fixed, but it was not when I last checked)

With these changes, the orders would be much more useful and versatile, and Squadrons would be more than cannon fodder in some of the more challenging or nuanced Fleet missions. The finalized commands would look like this:

Form up
Wait
Break and attack
Attack target
Defend leader
Bombard target

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2) Guard 'at risk' CSCs with Aquilae.

a) CSCs in dangerous areas(post - Point Juno) should have a 50% chance of spawning escorted by an Aquila, and a 25% chance of spawning with two. In addition, Task Force CSCs that take more than 75% damage should call an Aquila to gate in and defend them for a short period of time before gating back out. In addition, the Terra should have a 75% chance of 1 Aquila, a 50% chance of 2, and a 25% chance of 3.

b) After the Antarctica mission, if the player chose to defend it(regardless of whether they succeeded), all Aquilae escorting CSCs should disappear from their systems, and no further Aquilae should spawn.

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3) CSCs should be 'smarter' when defending themselves.

The current CSC defensive strategy works poorly. The gunships are quickly wiped out and rarely get any shots off, while the Britannias that are supposed to launch against more powerful enemies, in practice, rarely do so.

Possible changes:

a) Rather than assembling large groups of Centurions around the Carrier, have a small group orbiting it as guards, similar to any station. This would be about 3 for medical CSCs and 7 for Task Force CSCs. These should be replaced from the CSC if destroyed.

b) Should any CSC take more than 10% damage, it should spawn a squadron of 7 Centurions to attack its current target and then any nearby enemies, returning once no more are in range. Similar code already exists in at least 1 mod, so this should be easy to replicate. In addition, Task Force CSCs should spawn 7 Centurions to attack the current target every 1 minute if they are currently attacking something.

c) Should a Task Force CSC take more than 50% damage, it should launch its 5 Britannias against its current target regardless of the target's equipment. They should return upon its destruction.

d) Deployment of the current 5 Brits should be triggered by the presence of internal HP as well as by the present criteria. In addition, Medical CSCs should get a squadron of 3 Brits that attack targets with internal HP, to resolve their tendency to die so quickly to Ranx Dreadnoughts.

e) Should a non - mission Polar enter scanner range of a Task Force CSC, 6 Centurions and a Britannia should be launched to attack it.

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4) Balance missions:

a) The convoy attack missions should occur at a higher rank, and the given squadron should be comprised of Britannias rather than Centurions.

b) The scouting missions should not consider shipyards as a possible target.

c) The Scientist Rescue mission requires an overhaul. See #11.

d) The missions in which the player defends against hostile squadrons should occur across a wider range of ranks. The player should be given squadrons of Centurions at higher ranks only, and the hostile squadron's size should vary based on rank and system level.

e) Attack Commune missions should not consider Shipyards as a viable target.

f) In unknown hostile missions, the provided Britannias can easily wipe out the Sandstorm squadron on their own. Rather than have them be the entire mission, add a 75% chance of a Cometfall squadron appearing once they are encountered. The Cometfalls should be assigned to attack the CSC, and, upon their creation, the CSC should say something along the lines of "Ares squadron inbound! Return and defend the carrier!"

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5) Balance units:

a) Centurions, Aquilae, and Britannias should have their fire rates adjusted to normal levels. Their primary weapons are virtually useless otherwise.

b) Sandstorms should be faster.

c) Polar II freighters should have slower firerates.

d) Deimoses and Phobii should use their maximum weapon range to their advantage. Restrictions on their firing should be relaxed.

e) CSCs should be slightly faster. As it is, they're practically immobile in nebulae.

f) Shipyards are in need of a major rework. See #12.

g) Aquilae should be slightly faster and make use of all four main turrets.

h) Cometfalls should have fewer armor segments or lighter armor, but should generally be accompanied by at least a small escort.

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6) Add some early missions to medical CSCs.

a) Attack outpost. Rank: 1

"A particularly aggressive Ares outpost has been harassing us lately, disrupting our supply lines and thus our ability to get medicine to the wounded. We cannot spare any Centurions to assist you in destroying it, but we can provide you with its location."

Fairly simple. Designates an Ares outpost in the system, spawning one if there aren't any, and tell the player to attack it.

"Thanks for your help, pilgrim. You've taken a load off of our minds."

b) Escort supply ship. Rank: 2

"A Freighter is inbound with much needed supplies from St. Katherine's. Can you make sure it gets here safely?"

An Antares V spawns from the stargate, bound for the CSC. Its cargo should contain some low level medical supplies, though nothing too expensive. On the way, it is attacked by 3 - 5 sandstorms or 1 - 2 Kobol Gunships. If Kobol gunships, they should loot the Freighter before gating if the player fails.

"Those supplies really do make a difference out here. Thank you."

c) Attack raiders. Rank: 2

"We've been informed that some [Kobol Raiders/Rogue Fleet pilots] are gathering in preparation to ambush one of our supply ships. We're confident that you can take them out."

The player is pointed in the direction of a squadron of 2-3 Kobol gunships or Rogue Centurions. Once they destroy them, the mission is complete.

"That really could have gotten ugly. We're glad you made it back."

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7) Add more Fleet missions:

a) Assist squadron. Rank 2:

"A squadron of ours is engaged with the Ares and needs assistance. Go to their location and provide support."

A destroyed Ares Outpost is spawned, and the player is directed to move to its location. Once the player comes close enough, a group of Centurions and a group of Sandstorms are spawned, with the numbers slightly in Ares favor. Once the Sandstorms are destroyed, the mission is complete, and the player recieves EXP based on the number of surviving Centurions(which will proceed to return to the CSC).

"Good shooting. We're glad to have those pilots back safe."

or

"Well done cleaning that up. It's a shame to have lost that squadron, though."

b) Attack Shipyard. Rank: 6

"A pair of Aquilae are inbound to attack an Ares Shipyard in the system. Take a squadron of Britannias and cover their assault."

2 Aquilae gate in and attack a designated Ares Shipyard. The player is given 6 Britannias. Mission success is based upon the Shipyard being destroyed, and the number of surviving Aquilae determines mission completion text and EXP.

"Excellent flying, pilot. More people like you on our side and we'd have this war won in no time."

or

"That was a rough mission. Those Aquilae are anything but expendable."

or

"You screwed the pooch this time, pilot! There were hundreds of lives aboard those ships!"

c) Destroy raider outpost. Rank 3.

"A [Kobol/Rogue Fleet] station in the system has been harassing our freighters. Take a squadron of Centurions and neutralize it."

Simple as it looks. Pick or spawn a Rogue Fleet or Kobol station, give the player 6 Centurions, and launch the mission. The mission completion text would be the same as the default for squadron - based missions.

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7) Revamp and balance Antarctica questline.

The Antarctica questline has been out for a while, and has fallen out of balance. The Lamplighter is less of an asset now and is outmatched by many easier to acquire weapons, the GoS is both easier to get and will almost certainly be more useful in part 2, while the Lamplighter will inevitably become obsolete. In addition, the Schrodinger's Cat situation with the Aquilae could use some justifying.

a) Upgrade Lamplighter. Halve its power usage, double its range, and add a radius effect and 1.5x increase to damage. Slightly reduce firerate.

b) Nerf GoS. Make it impossible to use in conjunction with the Gem of Contemplation.

c) Add challenge to the Point Juno defense mission. Put a handful of Tundras in formation with the Sandstorms, and replace the Tundra squadron leader with a Chasm.

d) Give the Antarctica the same self - preservation tactics as the other CSCs, minus the ability to call for Aquilae. This should make the fight with the Aquila squadrons less one - sided while still being challenging.

e) Give dialogue that implies Decker trusted the player should they destroy the Antarctica or didn't should they defend it, explaining the presence of Aquilae should the player turn traitor.

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8) Fix Teraton defenses.

Currently, Teratons have no long range defenses. This can be solved simply. If a Teraton station is under attack, spawn a pod near the attacker.

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9) Fix mines.

Currently, mines are useless.

a) Mines should move towards targets hostile to those that spawned them at close range and have NFF by default.

b) Mines should, if possible, be invisible outside of close range.

c) Mines need much higher damage.

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10) Balance other stations

a) 2 - 4 Centurions should orbit and guard each Commonwealth settlement.

b) Commonwealth Stations should field a Fusionfire Howitzer in addition to their array of particle beam weapons.

c) Ranx Fortresses should be armed with four Akan 30 cannons.

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11) Fix the Rescue Scientists mission.

a) The beginning should remain much the same. An Aurochs is launched towards a Rogue Fleet settlement, and the player is ordered to escort it. However, the settlement generated should not spawn pre - destroyed.

b) The attack launched against the Aurochs must be modified. At present, there is no challenge, and the Aurochs is quite likely to survive unescorted. To fix this, at least one Rogue Fleet aligned Britannia should be spawned alongside the attackers.

c) Once the Aurochs reaches a distance of 150ls to its target, it should stop moving. It should then transmit the message:

"Objective is in sight. Engage!"

d) The target should switch to the Rogue Fleet Settlement, indicating that the player should destroy it.

e) Once the settlement is destroyed, the docking text should state:

"You are docked with the remains of a destroyed Rogue Fleet Settlement, which appears to have served as a makeshift prison camp. The corpses of Rogue Fleet personnel lay scattered across the walls of the station, and the surviving ones point their weapons at your ship."

With undock as the sole option.

f) Once the Aurochs docks, the docking text should change to the one currently used, and the mission should continue as normal.

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12) Rework and rebalance the Ares Shipyard

a) Reduce production speed to match more realistic rates. This is both for the sake of balance in CSC America and to make other fixes more workable.

b) Second, do not cease production when the station is fully guarded. Instead, continue production at a reduced rate and have newly built ships gate out.

c) Thirdly, a shipyard should not continue to function indefinitely with its supply lines cut off. Have each Polar that docks at a shipyard add a certain number of 'widget' virtual items to its cargo.

d) Widgets would be used to produce ships. When producing a ship, go through a set of ships and select one with a widget cost that is less than the current number of widgets. If none exist, do not produce a ship.

e) Example table: Station starts with 1000 - 10000 widgets. Polar freighter provides 1500 widgets. Sandstorm costs 50, Tundra costs 250, Chasm costs 500, Deimos costs 1500, Phobos costs 4500. If widgets exceeds 10000, do not call any more Polars over until it falls below 10000.

f) Upon destruction of a shipyard, convert its remaining widgets to items used in Ares manufacturing. Ore, Tharsis plate, Ares weapons, and the like are all good ideas. Based on the above table, multiplying the number of widgets by 5 and getting items that <= that number in credits seems fairly balanced.

g) Equip Ares shipyards with an Ares Lighting turret for defense, to better distinguish them from Communes in terms of defenses. In addition, arrange their turrets in a circle for a more distinct aesthetic.

h) Give Ares shipyards autorepair capability. It's a bit strange that large military stations are less equipped for damage control than slums made out of cargo crates.

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Thoughts, possible implementations, and additional ideas welcome.

[Song]

Other stuff:

1. Add new capship sizing to the Phobos. Currently it feels too small. Also a good opportunity to give it 120 facings so that big gun is actually useful more often.
2. Dead stations spawned as window-dressing as well as the current regular set of stations that are randomly generated. Small chance of loot.
3. I always suggest minefields in these threads so yeah. Minefields. Could have some nice juicy shipwrecks full of loot in them....but they also have mines. (note: The CRM100 is presently completely useless, so it might require some alterations for use as a minefield, unless the mines are ridiculously dense). Obviously, most freighters should try to avoid these.
4. CSCs should probably send squadrons out to attack any ares convoys that pass within a certain distance of them.
5. Ships spawned from a CSC should have a cooldown on their guns when spawned so they don't immediately shoot their own carrier when defending it.
6. Centurion/X's should turn up in the main fleet. Likewise, the Auroch's minelayer.


I definitely also support altering the missions to be more interesting at higher levels. The convoy mission definitely needs extra firepower, but if it gains the Britannia then I'd suggest adding some customised EI100s into it: the standard ones will die if britannias start lobbing nukes. Larger ships have some internal HP to soak up the.....enthusiasm....of the average Britannia.

[JohnBWatson]

Other stuff:

1. Add new capship sizing to the Phobos. Currently it feels too small. Also a good opportunity to give it 120 facings so that big gun is actually useful more often.

Great minds think alike: George has already planned to enlarge the Phobos and add more facings.

2. Dead stations spawned as window-dressing as well as the current regular set of stations that are randomly generated. Small chance of loot.

I fully agree.

The dead stations aren't window dressing, however. They indicate the presence of a Xenophobe Worldship.

3. I always suggest minefields in these threads so yeah. Minefields. Could have some nice juicy shipwrecks full of loot in them....but they also have mines. (note: The CRM100 is presently completely useless, so it might require some alterations for use as a minefield, unless the mines are ridiculously dense). Obviously, most freighters should try to avoid these.

Agree. I'll add a section on fixing mines.

4. CSCs should probably send squadrons out to attack any ares convoys that pass within a certain distance of them.

Task Force CSCs, anyways. I'll add it in.

5. Ships spawned from a CSC should have a cooldown on their guns when spawned so they don't immediately shoot their own carrier when defending it.

That might be possible through a virtual item that waits a few seconds, installs their armament, and then deletes itself. The current problem is a glitch, so I'll add it to Ministry.

6. Centurion/X's should turn up in the main fleet. Likewise, the Auroch's minelayer.

I agree, but I'm not sure where they'd fit. Suggestions?

I definitely also support altering the missions to be more interesting at higher levels. The convoy mission definitely needs extra firepower, but if it gains the Britannia then I'd suggest adding some customised EI100s into it: the standard ones will die if britannias start lobbing nukes.

You're thinking of the Convoy defense mission. The mission I was talking about is the one where a group of 3 Ares Freighters pass through the system escorted by Chasms or Deimoses.

[Song]

2. Dead stations spawned as window-dressing as well as the current regular set of stations that are randomly generated. Small chance of loot.

I fully agree.

The dead stations aren't window dressing, however. They indicate the presence of a Xenophobe Worldship.

You're referring to what you get when the Xenos are around. I'm referring to stuff like smashed outposts, wrecked capital ships, etc. Signs that a major war is being fought in the area. Admittedly, Gaians are jerks who clean that stuff up.

[sun1404]

A cool thing to add to fix the Centurions firing at their CSCs, maybe, is to spawn these Centurions by flinging them out from the CSC. Spawn one, and give it an immediate speed. I don't know if you can directly give something a velocity value at creation, but if you can't, maybe use some kind of no-damage, high-momentum virtual weapon. This could be described as the CSC's ship launching system.

And while you're at it, launch each Centurion in a squadron in a radial pattern. There's seven Centurions spawned at a time, so fling them into a fan, facing the threat. Or if that would make them die too fast, fling them in the other direction, and let them fly in, from behind the CSC.

[JohnBWatson]

I'm referring to stuff like smashed outposts, wrecked capital ships, etc. Signs that a major war is being fought in the area. Admittedly, Gaians are jerks who clean that stuff up.

Ah, my apologies for the misunderstanding.

Truthfully, I'm not sure how that's supposed to work. There are conflicts throughout human space, and yet no stations simply spawn as dead. Perhaps they're rebuilt from time to time, or salvaged by a third party?

My best explanation is that the player's scanners operate based on energy signature, and long dead stations or wrecks simply don't have enough energy left on them to be visible.

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A cool thing to add to fix the Centurions firing at their CSCs, maybe, is to spawn these Centurions by flinging them out from the CSC. Spawn one, and give it an immediate speed. I don't know if you can directly give something a velocity value at creation, but if you can't, maybe use some kind of no-damage, high-momentum virtual weapon. This could be described as the CSC's ship launching system.

And while you're at it, launch each Centurion in a squadron in a radial pattern. There's seven Centurions spawned at a time, so fling them into a fan, facing the threat. Or if that would make them die too fast, fling them in the other direction, and let them fly in, from behind the CSC.

If possible, that may be useful. A virtual engine that is despawned by the mechanism described earlier would work just as well.

[Song]

I'm referring to stuff like smashed outposts, wrecked capital ships, etc. Signs that a major war is being fought in the area. Admittedly, Gaians are jerks who clean that stuff up.

Ah, my apologies for the misunderstanding.

Truthfully, I'm not sure how that's supposed to work. There are conflicts throughout human space, and yet no stations simply spawn as dead. Perhaps they're rebuilt from time to time, or salvaged by a third party?

In-universe, it can be explained as stuff being salvaged or falling out of orbit, or whatever. In a heated conflict zone.....stuff might linger longer because it's unsafe to rebuild or scrap the wrecks. Ingame, I think it's because George never coded it. It'd be a cool thing to have every now and then......stuff like the wreck of the Europa (and attendant shipwrecks) is a really good thing for building atmosphere (althouhg obviously we're not going to have dead CSCs everywhere. THey only made 12 of them or so).

[JohnBWatson]

In-universe, it can be explained as stuff being salvaged or falling out of orbit, or whatever. In a heated conflict zone.....stuff might linger longer because it's unsafe to rebuild or scrap the wrecks. Ingame, I think it's because George never coded it. It'd be a cool thing to have every now and then......stuff like the wreck of the Europa (and attendant shipwrecks) is a really good thing for building atmosphere

Perhaps. I could see having abandoned stations that have been repurposed as outposts for Kobol raiders and the like. Ultimately, I'm not sure how stations are really supposed to work. On one hand, they supposedly hold millions of people. On the other, their armament is rarely sufficient to fend off even a small incursion, and their armor isn't that much heavier than that of a warship. I'm not really certain how often they're supposed to be destroyed or how permanent they are intended to be. Part of the problem is the lack of ambient warfare, meaning that while we know what tactics are being used, we don't know the frequency. A CSC can order the player to raze many Communes in a matter of minutes, but it will never launch a strike force of its own. Similarly, while the Ares will launch attacks on the Fleet, these attacks only occur on the pilgrim's watch.

Of course, implementing ambient combat adds its own problems. If the attacks have a chance of success, the system will eventually 'solve' itself, completely purging the weaker faction. If they don't, it raises the question of why the factions are so fixed on sending infinite pilots and ships to their inevitable deaths. Ultimately, the sheer lack of available information on the subject makes implementing something here very difficult.

(althouhg obviously we're not going to have dead CSCs everywhere. THey only made 12 of them or so).

Worse, it's actually 10(minus the Antarctica and Europa). I can see why George is buffing the Fleet, they're really outgunned at present.

[EditorRUS]

Perhaps. I could see having abandoned stations that have been repurposed as outposts for Kobol raiders and the like. Ultimately, I'm not sure how stations are really supposed to work. On one hand, they supposedly hold millions of people. On the other, their armament is rarely sufficient to fend off even a small incursion, and their armor isn't that much heavier than that of a warship. I'm not really certain how often they're supposed to be destroyed or how permanent they are intended to be. Part of the problem is the lack of ambient warfare, meaning that while we know what tactics are being used, we don't know the frequency. A CSC can order the player to raze many Communes in a matter of minutes, but it will never launch a strike force of its own. Similarly, while the Ares will launch attacks on the Fleet, these attacks only occur on the pilgrim's watch.

I've always thought George should integrate Dynamic Systems into the game as one of the default modes.

[george moromisato]

This is a great thread--I'm sorry I didn't see it sooner.

I've added a record to remind me: https://ministry.kronosaur.com/record.hexm?id=3609

I'll break it up into multiple bugs as appropriate.

[JohnBWatson]

Ares Shipyards are currently in need of a thorough rework. Somewhere I remember George saying they aren't supposed to be producing ships so quickly, and it's a gameplay abstraction that they do. This makes them a bit strange to fight against, and even stranger when you consider how shipyards work. It also makes farming rin and points a bit too easy.

I've been thinking about a way to improve this, could some good modders (or George himself) tell me whether it's feasible before I add it to the OP?

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Ares Shipyard rework

• First, reduce production speed to match more realistic rates. This is both for the sake of balance in CSC America and to make other fixes more workable.
• Second, do not cease production when the station is fully guarded. Instead, continue production at a reduced rate and have newly built ships gate out.
• Thirdly, a shipyard should not continue to function indefinitely with its supply lines cut off. Have each Polar that docks at a shipyard add a certain number of 'widget' virtual items to its cargo.
• Widgets would be used to produce ships. When producing a ship, go through a set of ships and select one with a widget cost that is less than the current number of widgets. If none exist, do not produce a ship.
• Example table: Station starts with 1000 - 10000 widgets. Polar freighter provides 1500 widgets. Sandstorm costs 50, Tundra costs 250, Chasm costs 500, Deimos costs 1500, Phobos costs 4500. If widgets exceeds 10000, do not call any more Polars over until it falls below 10000.
• Upon destruction of a shipyard, convert its remaining widgets to items used in Ares manufacturing. Ore, Tharsis plate, Ares weapons, and the like are all good ideas. Based on the above table, multiplying the number of widgets by 5 and getting items that <= that number in credits seems fairly balanced.
• Give Ares shipyards an Ares Lighting turret, to better distinguish them from Communes in terms of defenses.
• Finally, give Ares shipyards autorepair capability. It's a bit strange that large military stations are less equipped for damage control than slums made out of cargo crates.

[Song]

[*] Finally, give Ares shipyards autorepair capability. It's a bit strange that large military stations are less equipped for damage control than slums made out of cargo crates.[/list]

Real Men are made out of cargo crates.

Edit: Also, hasn't the internal HP system established that cargo crates are the best armor in the entire galaxy? [/edit]


But yes, agreed. Might also be neat to give them their own defense weapons. The Ares turret is insanely good (may be less so when it's larger), but shipyards are a really big investment....it might be worth increasing the distance of the turrets to Sung-citidel or great distance, and giving the shipyard itself one or more ALTs. Maybe even up-scaling the station as well...as it is now, the shipyard is a lot smaller than a phobos, and doesn't have any gantries or anything that you'd expect.

[JohnBWatson]

A single ALT would probably be good. I'll add that in.

[Aury]

Re: Aquilas -
I'd go as far as just giving each CSC an aquila, or, you know, giving them something with WMD and a T3 damage type. (I've never seen any use the launcher aside from Terra and Antarctica)

Waiting until 75% damage is too long.

I would also not disable the aquilas after the antarctica mission. Perhaps deleting extras (in the event a CSC had more than 1 to start).

[EditorRUS]

For me drones never were good. In early game they are too expensive, in midgame and after they become too flimsy and not threating for anything. The same goes for wingmans - by the time player get them, they already are equipped with outdated weapon and armor. They might be helpful with clearing lots of interceptors while player fights a big ship, but they are way too stupid and it requires lots of microcontrolling to actually make them do that.