Hitbox? Hitbox!

[EditorRUS]

This topic is about one weakness in game's balance.
As you progress, you get better weapons, armor, but one thing never changes - your hitbox (unless you are playing with Player Drones, but that's a different story).
This makes one huge difference between you and others: other need to become larger to have better weapons and armor. The problem is that you can destroy those other, salvage their armor and weapon and install them on your ship without having any penalty in efficiency. You can shoot as powerful and fast as those fatties you destroyed. But you never change your hitbox area. It doesn't even make any sense. Their armor is as thick as yours but you are smaller without having any changes in weaponry. In fact you can be absolutely similar to them but far more smaller which makes you stupendously harder to hit. It also doesn't really make any sense in space battle. Have you ever seen any small interceptor destroying a huge ass ship without having any technological advantage or abusing ship's weaknesses? No, because being smaller in size means less weapons and armor. This is not the case in Transcendence - you can be as powerful as ICS being literally 20 times smaller. There are only two things that make bigger ships better than smaller ones: bigger ships can have more armor segments (which makes overall HP higher but not always harder to destroy the ship) and able to carry more turret-like weapons (not always used as well). Also without having any changes in size you can have your shield as tough as big ships' ones.

[JohnBWatson]

That's not correct. Capital ships can have multiple weapons hardpoints and can mount heavier armor. Try equipping the ICS's armor plating and you'll see what I mean.

The Phobos, for example, can simultaneously fire its two lightning turrets while also bombarding a target with its Archcannon. It can also use massive Tharsis plate, which is off limits to most playerships.

I am, however, in favor of a buff to the armor capital ships can fit, which is, at present, rather underwhelming. Given that a dreadnought is much larger than the player, its armor ought to be significantly thicker. Ditto the p1000 armor of CSCs, which is less than impressive. In addition, the armor carrying capacity of light gunships like the Wolfen and the Akuma could do to be lower, to make the capacity of the Manticore and Spartan more attractive.

[EditorRUS]

That's not correct. Capital ships can have multiple weapons hardpoints and can mount heavier armor. Try equipping the ICS's armor plating and you'll see what I mean.

As I mentioned above, this

can have multiple weapons hardpoints

is the only advantage for me of big ships over smaller ones. Especially true it's for Xenophobe Arc.
As for mass of armor, for most part of the game, it doesn't really mean anything. Armor mass limitation doesn't mean anything except that you can't put on some armor. As for Sapphire it means it can have all but very few armor on. Phobos is considered one of the hardest common ships in game just because it has a lot of armor segments and extremely powerful main cannon and you are forced to attack its sides while Phobos rotates which basically makes you attack many armor segments at once thus making Phobos insanely tough. Even when fighting with ICS you just need to stay away from it to not get into avalanche's stream and keep firing, destroying every quantum disintegrator projectile. So Phobos' armor may seem cool but mostly because of many segments. It makes no big deal if installed on something smaller like Sapphire.

Even if there is some armor which is good enough to be wanted but too heavy to be installed, there may also be some equivalents of this armor, short in durability and resistances to the wanted armor but still good enough to be installed. Usually when it comes to durability, at higher levels it doesn't matter if two armor segments have 20-80 difference in HP. If you ever find yourself having that much HP it usually means you are IN BAD SITUATION and you'd better retire ASAP because one more shot will kill you. More important thing at this levels is resistance to damage and here we get that interesting thing about similarity of light and heavy armors. Heavy armor usually don't have significant difference in resistances to medium armor.

[JohnBWatson]

What I meant was that the degree of difference between capital ship armor and lighter armor should be much greater. A capital ship's armor plating should be 2 - 3 times stronger than a gunship's armor, and weigh 2 - 3 times as much.

[Vachtra]

Actually the facings alone helps. Maybe they should have more facings. 24 maybe? 36?

[JohnBWatson]

Actually the facings alone helps. Maybe they should have more facings. 24 maybe? 36?

That's already planned, as I understand it. A fix on the AI range bug will make Phobii and especially Deimoses much more lethal, so I don't believe they need a buff.

The Ventari, Marauders, and Sung all have large, slow capital ships without any long range weapons, which effectively renders them helpless against a player with any degree of competence. With the Marauders, a simple speed and aggressiveness buff to their gunship escorts would easily resolve the problem. For the Sung, perhaps a stunning cyberattack with a low rate of effectiveness and cooldown but a high range would be appropriate. The Ventari, I have no idea what to do with, but if I had to suggest something it would be an interceptor.

[Song]

Capital ships are good place for future specialisation. Currently, most ships behave very similarly....they have no real AI difference, and have more guns, internal HP (which isn't a good balancer) and slightly better armor....at the cost of being easy to hit.


There's definitely room for that to change: large ships have plenty of ways to differentiate them. Point defense (once it's been fixed), carrier bays, heavy missiles.....and yes, better armor. At least, sometimes. Capships don't always have to be super-heavy things that are impossible to kill (Battlecruisers would be a cool thing to have). And damage repair abiltities.....

Ships tend to get balanced quantitatively......what numbers are appropriate, that sort of thing. But there does need to be some qualitative balance as well: what can these ships actually do and what is their design concept.

[JohnBWatson]

Capital ships are good place for future specialisation. Currently, most ships behave very similarly....they have no real AI difference, and have more guns, internal HP (which isn't a good balancer) and slightly better armor....at the cost of being easy to hit.

Quite true. Anyone ever tried giving one StandOff?

Seems like it might be interesting, at the very least.

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carrier bays

And fix the ones we have. The pirate frigate is just plain weird, fragging its escorts left and right. Its not like Corsair Is are useful to them, anyways.

Marauder raid platforms, CSCs, and other dedicated carriers could use a real revamp as to how they use their ship complements in combat(this would be an excellent feature to release alongside CSC America, given that the requirements for both are similar). Raid platforms are, at present, pathetic, due to having power creep - killed armor and no internals, along with lacking the carrier capabilities they used to have.

Ships tend to get balanced quantitatively......what numbers are appropriate, that sort of thing. But there does need to be some qualitative balance as well: what can these ships actually do and what is their design concept.

Yup. At present, heavy gunships are just worse versions of light gunships, fielding armor that could easily be fitted on smaller ships and lacking any kind of advantage.

[Song]

Capital ships are good place for future specialisation. Currently, most ships behave very similarly....they have no real AI difference, and have more guns, internal HP (which isn't a good balancer) and slightly better armor....at the cost of being easy to hit.

Quite true. Anyone ever tried giving one StandOff?

Seems like it might be interesting, at the very least.

---

carrier bays

And fix the ones we have. The pirate frigate is just plain weird, fragging its escorts left and right. Its not like Corsair Is are useful to them, anyways.

Marauder raid platforms, CSCs, and other dedicated carriers could use a real revamp as to how they use their ship complements in combat(this would be an excellent feature to release alongside CSC America, given that the requirements for both are similar). Raid platforms are, at present, pathetic, due to having power creep - killed armor and no internals, along with lacking the carrier capabilities they used to have.

Ships tend to get balanced quantitatively......what numbers are appropriate, that sort of thing. But there does need to be some qualitative balance as well: what can these ships actually do and what is their design concept.

Yup. At present, heavy gunships are just worse versions of light gunships, fielding armor that could easily be fitted on smaller ships and lacking any kind of advantage.

Part of this is down to how gunships in general are balanced...specifically the player ones. They can fit equipment that really should be restricted to capital ships without penalty.....which isn't a bad thing (we do, after all, have to do incredible things to get through the game), but we don't really get any drawbacks this way. Also, AI gunships don't have fuel restrictions, and the player gunships don't have them for very long either, if at all.....whereas in-lore, the smaller gunships have limited combat range due to their lack of facilities.

In terms of standoff....it works, sort of, until you get close to it. It basically just fights like a larger drake. Large ships don't have the thrust to get away from a gunship, and against many players can't output enough damage to knock out the shields.

Personally I'd make armor universally tougher (and buff some underperforming weapons), and increase the spread of armor masses. This might conflict with how the level curve is currently set up....but generally speaking, as well as hitpoints being tied to level, they should also be closely tied to mass. Want lots of HP? It's going to slow you down.

[JohnBWatson]

Part of this is down to how gunships in general are balanced...specifically the player ones. They can fit equipment that really should be restricted to capital ships without penalty.....which isn't a bad thing (we do, after all, have to do incredible things to get through the game), but we don't really get any drawbacks this way.

I agree. A weapon slot weight restriction similar to the system for armor would work for me. Light gunships can be faster but not hit as hard, and heavy gunships would be worth using for the extra armament options.

Also, AI gunships don't have fuel restrictions, and the player gunships don't have them for very long either, if at all.....whereas in-lore, the smaller gunships have limited combat range due to their lack of facilities.

Yep. In practical terms, any playership is going to be suitable for a pilgrim's journey, so we can assume the current fuel restrictions are fine for them. As for AI ships, I'd force non - mission spawned variants of them to try to stay within X distance of the nearest friendly capital ship and/or station, turning back if they're too far out. X would be about 150 for Corsairs and interceptors, 350 for light gunships like the Viking or Sandstorm, 550 for medium gunships like those of the Ranx and most station guards, and limitless for anything above that.

As an additional feature, things with fuel rods could spend them when they go further out.

In terms of standoff....it works, sort of, until you get close to it. It basically just fights like a larger drake. Large ships don't have the thrust to get away from a gunship, and against many players can't output enough damage to knock out the shields.

Huh. Was worth a shot, at least.

Personally I'd make armor universally tougher

Armor's tough enough. I've barely any use for shields pre - Outer Realm, and I play fairly aggressively.

Some AI ships, notably the Corsair and Wind Slaver, are currently a bit too poorly armored, and heavy armor like that of Phobii could use a buff once internal HP is fixed, but medium armor like Iocrym in late game and Blast Plate in early game needs a nerf, if anything.

and increase the spread of armor masses.

Most certainly. The mass limit used to be a key factor, but heavy armors haven't held up over time and lighter armors have gotten much better. Upping the spread to the point where the armor of Aquilae can't be fitted onto a Centurion is a great idea.

This might conflict with how the level curve is currently set up....but generally speaking, as well as hitpoints being tied to level, they should also be closely tied to mass. Want lots of HP? It's going to slow you down.

I think a roughly static ratio of mass to HP would work well. Armor that is twice as heavy should provide twice the protection. Couple that with increased mass spread, and the problem's all but solved.

[Vachtra]

A funny part is, although you can't equip it, several piecies often still fit in your cargo hold.

[Song]

A funny part is, although you can't equip it, several piecies often still fit in your cargo hold.

Well, assuming it can physically fit inside (not a safe assumption, but eh) then the thing is that ships are designed to withstand high acceleration....so some parts are more able to carry a heavy mass than others. Thus the armor mass limit is more about not peeling the armor off the ship under acceleration than anything else.

But yeah, acceptable break from reality in general since realistically, either capital ships would have thousands of segments, or they wouldn't fit in a wolfen cargo hold.