Proposal: switch the gimmicks on the Freyr and Manticore

Post ideas & suggestions you have pertaining to the game here.

Should we give the Freyr the armor repairer and the Manticore the swivel bonus?

Yes.
2
40%
No, they're fine.
2
40%
Something should be done, but I prefer another solution.
1
20%
 
Total votes: 5
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JohnBWatson
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Sat Oct 07, 2017 5:27 pm

PM wrote:
Sat Oct 07, 2017 12:18 pm
I consider tier 1 damage type sufficient drawback for Flenser and X-ray cannon. They are like crutch characters - great now, obsolete fairly quickly.
The balance with a crutch character is that it absorbs EXP that could otherwise make your other party members stronger. It's a benefit now that you pay for later.

The opposite of this is true for a powerful weapon. The longer you use it, the more money you save up. Granted, the economy is generous enough that this isn't much of a benefit, but it still isn't a downside by any means.

In addition, I reliably use the Flenser until Jiang's Star. That's two thirds of the game it can carry you through - it definitely isn't obsolete quickly.
As for heavy armor reducing non-WMD damage, most energy weapons do not have WMD. Internals needing WMD to hurt efficiently is already a pain. (I already consider putting WMD on all of my mod weapons even if it does not make sense, just so killing things does not take all day.) I remember people writing that late game is mainly a howitzer game, maybe because of prevalence of hardened targets that need WMD to hurt?
Howitzers' WMD isn't the (main) reason people use them to the exception of other weapons. They have the high range, and the best DPS in the game by far when enhanced. It's a similar issue to this one - better DPS is orders of magnitude more useful than a higher tier damagetype. This is especially true against capital ships, as internal HP doesn't have resistances IIRC.
More hp on heavier armor makes sense, but they typically do not give enough extra hp. I think one VotG heavy armor has a puny amount of hp more than its normal counterpart.
I don't think extra health is the way to do this - it's trading a higher order downside(speed) for a stat boost, which is a decision I don't think most people would like. You've got to offer something that 'feels' equal to a change in speed. Perhaps a New Vegas - esque 'damage threshold' system would work better, allowing powerful non - WMD weapons to cut through heavy armor while still making appropriately leveled heavy armor desirable.

PM
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Sat Oct 07, 2017 7:44 pm

Jiang's Star is level 6. Dual Flenser/X-ray cannon is level 5. If I get those weapons when level appropriate, that lasts from about Sanctuary (or a little earlier if shops are good) to Jiang's Star (i.e., not very long). If I get one from Rigel or before Charon, well, sure, I will smash things for a long while, not unlike finding EMP cannon in Eridani several versions ago and stunlocking everyone for two-thirds of the game. (Or finding dual particle beam weapon in the second system and murdering almost everyone until I find a level 6+ weapon.) For that matter, this is not unlike the Wolfen's dual laser cannon lasting from Eridani to about St. K's.

Re: Howitzers. Okay, the best thermo weapon that is not a howitzer and does not use ammo would be tritium cannon. That's... level 7, and their shots were easily intercepted. That leaves ion weapons (which do not have much WMD), level 8 thermo howitzers, or tier 4 weapons (that cannot be enhanced much if at all). Recently, advanced tritium cannon does not overheat near as quickly as it used to, so maybe that is viable now. Since Longzhus do not stack (or enhance Iocrym weapons) like they used to (and ion capacitors were rarer until recently), that leaves thermo weapons as the ideal endgame weapon to enhance.

Hull used to inherit armor's resistances. I am not sure if that remains true.
I don't think extra health is the way to do this - it's trading a higher order downside(speed) for a stat boost, which is a decision I don't think most people would like. You've got to offer something that 'feels' equal to a change in speed. Perhaps a New Vegas - esque 'damage threshold' system would work better, allowing powerful non - WMD weapons to cut through heavy armor while still making appropriately leveled heavy armor desirable.
The reason people (or at least I) do not like merely more hp from heavy armor is you do not get near enough extra hp to compensate for speed loss. Double or less extra hp for armor that weighs triple or more? That is a joke! Triple or more (for armor that weighs triple or more than normal)? Now we're talking!

Compensation does not need to be flashy new powers. It can be a simple stat boost if it is effective enough. +50% hp for triple normal mass and less speed is not.
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Norgath
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Sat Oct 07, 2017 8:20 pm

PM wrote:
Thu Oct 05, 2017 3:47 pm
@ Norgath: That ship sounds like the Ares' Phobos dreadnought.

Manticore has a net defense penalty, either no shield (nano repairer is not good enough) or weak shield, and standard offense at best (same DPS, but off-centered points may be a pain).

Ideas for powering up Manticore:
* Remove -20% hp shield penalty. That way, player can opt out of the Manticore's gimmick if he wants (or needs to if he cannot find proper armor) and be like NPC Manticores.
* Nano repairer adds some +hp%, somewhere between 20% and 50%, to all armor (to compensate for no shield).
* Some offensive boost to all weapons to live it to its brute force description. Maybe swivel, +20% to damage, or faster fireRate.
Yes the Phobos dreadnought's plasma cannon. when I encountered it the first time it was reminiscent of a, of a rogue-like's damage spike. Throughout, most of the damage progression is fairly smooth up to this point. My first reaction is say nerf it but this made me slow down a bit to change my strategy; so not a bad thing imo.

In the past day or two I took the time to make a simple mod that puts the Navoya armor repairer on the market to try on different ships. I put one on the wolfen, as I wanted to see how well it would do with a dast ship, and lucked out on that playthrough with the random equipment mod and started out with light meteor-steel armor! Since this doesn't interfere with armor repairer I figured I would give it a shot and see how far I got before the armor failed on me. This was an exceptional early to mid game setup and is only inferior to heavy Navoya armor. I got so far as regular encounters to penitence shrines. Then there was a (luminous?) cruiser with some sort of seeking weapon that arced past the forward plate (heavy Meteorsteel, lucky me!) twice in a row and blew out my starboard plate. Up to that point I was able avoid a lot of heavy damage through the speed of the ship; as it can out run many of the missiles, as well as pull larger groups apart to whittle down the numbers, all the while regenerating HP.

As for the Manitcore itself, I think that having swivel mounts would be a great addition! It seems to fit with how it works and looks, yeah? I (want to) agree with the removal of the -20% hp shield penalty for the reason you stated, but there may be another answer. The Navoya heavy armor doesn't show up quite when it needs to, but reducing it's level may make it show up too soon for what it offers. Although, Heavy meteor-steel would be a good transition armor in between medium and heavy, if you could ever find it. This week I will try to increase meteor-steel armors in shops to see how the progression goes (mid to late game because light meteor-steel blows everything else out of the water(sector? Space-time?). Once I figure out how to get more than one item to appear at a time.


On a separate note, I like the idea of adding a hull stat and I see in my minds eye, clearly, how to get around the imbalance of early game and the potential it has in Transcendence. Firstly, water...ahhh.
This is effectively adding an additional defense layer, which I like, and can have some interesting effects and attributes; most of which are currently present in the game and some may be developed ITF(unknown--> EMP pulse). This would act like a:
*360% single armor plate
*takes damage IF the plate that would take damage is already at 0 HP(a switch command on collision?--> non-spatial item? takes up a non weapon slot? If I'm correct if armor = 0 then player ship is destroyed. Pseudo fix, switch at armor HP of 1 and if collision condition does not equal hull attribute damage is directed back to original (or other armor plate).

Focusing on the single armor plate aspect; an armor plate can be installed as a hull plate, for proof of concept, and specific hull plate designs can be fleshed out later on. Since it is a single piece, defenses can be more highly focused including:
*Zero HP hulls with damage immunity starting at mid level (4-6) hulls (so that if your armor is depleted you are not taken out by a single stray laser)
*special properties like radiation and EMP immunity for the whole ship
*it can be that one piece of equipment that you reserve for solar energy.

All in all, I think it would be a fun addition to Transcendence and not that difficult to balance.

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JohnBWatson
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Sat Oct 07, 2017 9:34 pm

PM wrote:
Sat Oct 07, 2017 7:44 pm
Jiang's Star is level 6. Dual Flenser/X-ray cannon is level 5. If I get those weapons when level appropriate, that lasts from about Sanctuary (or a little earlier if shops are good) to Jiang's Star (i.e., not very long). If I get one from Rigel or before Charon, well, sure, I will smash things for a long while, not unlike finding EMP cannon in Eridani several versions ago and stunlocking everyone for two-thirds of the game. (Or finding dual particle beam weapon in the second system and murdering almost everyone until I find a level 6+ weapon.) For that matter, this is not unlike the Wolfen's dual laser cannon lasting from Eridani to about St. K's.
I almost always get one at or before St. Kat's. It's not a rare thing. That said, upping its rarity might be a good enough fix. Even so, it's a noticeably better weapon than the X ray laser, Akan 30, heavy slam cannon, Moskva 33, Urak howitzer, dual particle beam weapon, lancer, omni particle cannon, shuriken neutron blaster, or sunflare cannon.

The Wolfen's dual laser is a bit strong for a starting weapon, but it definitely doesn't comfortably last up until St. Kat's.
The reason people (or at least I) do not like merely more hp from heavy armor is you do not get near enough extra hp to compensate for speed loss. Double or less extra hp for armor that weighs triple or more? That is a joke! Triple or more (for armor that weighs triple or more than normal)? Now we're talking!

Compensation does not need to be flashy new powers. It can be a simple stat boost if it is effective enough. +50% hp for triple normal mass and less speed is not.
I don't know about that. I can only speak for myself here, but I've always disliked trading a special ability or something that could make the game more interesting for a raw stat boost that doesn't add any new mechanics.

PM
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Sat Oct 07, 2017 11:23 pm

@ Norgath: Heavy Novaya is level 7, and it would show up kind of late. Shops have inventory that varies by system level. The way to have stronger-than-medium Novaya appear earlier would be to have an intermediary level 6 armor, between medium and heavy. Well, maybe that or change the armor to level-up sort of like bioship's armor in VotG.

@ JBW: I guess you think Flensers are too versatile. I bet if it had no WMD, it would be a second-rate, weaker, and somewhat slower X-ray or particle beam with more range. I guess the WMD pushes it over the top for you; I would not use Flensers over X-ray or dual particle beam if it did not have WMD (although I tend to use what is available, not always what I want, at least before I can find a fabricator).

Before shops got inventory by system-level, Flensers and X-ray lasers were rare. They have "rare" frequency and (maybe) "Specialty" attribute, but that would not matter if there are not many items for shops to choose from, much like cancer dust in George's stream.
I've always disliked trading a special ability or something that could make the game more interesting for a raw stat boost that doesn't add any new mechanics.
Sometimes, simple, raw power is best. It may not be flashy, but gets the job done. Sometimes, having big enough numbers enables things you cannot otherwise do with lower numbers, like survive long enough in a firefight or hit hard enough to overcome the enemy's regeneration.
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