Capships and garrisons

[Revolver]

the specifications of the Star Destroyer class capship

The Imperial-class Star Destroyer bristles with 60 turbolaser batteries, 60 ion cannon batteries, and 10 tractor beam projectors. It carries a full stormtrooper division, 20 AT-ATs, 30 AT-STs, eight Lambda-class shuttles, 12 landing barges, and six TIE squadrons.

TIE fighter units are typically organized into wings -- a grouping of 72 fighters carried aboard a Star Destroyer. These wings are subdivided into six squadrons of 12 fighters each.One of these squadrons is typically made up of TIE interceptors while another consists of TIE bombers. Each squadron consists of three flights of four fighters each. Each flight contains two elements. An element is the smallest tactical unit of starfighters ever deployed, and consists only of a leader and a wingman.

Interesting that it functions more like a carrier and landing craft than a heavy gunned capship like the Ranx Dreadnaught. The only big guns in the Starwars universe seem to be the Heavy Ion Cannon on Hoth and the Death Star.

[Betelgeuse]

well no matter how powerful you make the station there will be a problem. If you make the station too powerfull then the reenforcements will just overwealm the capships. If you just make it so the reenforcements are weak then there are going to be huge piles of friendly ships outside every friendly base. (Ranx can already outrange them if they can fire from farther that means that they would not find stations even more of the time)

I don't really see the point with making capships more powerful with escorts fighting with them is already either tedious. I like the balance that the Xenophobe Worldship has. It is rare you don't see 3 or 4 in every system. Maybe if capships where more rare they would be more interesting to make more powerful but as they are now I don't want to fight the strongest ship in the Ranx fleet every couple minetes and die because I didn't have the "optimal equipment" that most people have and they want a challenge.

[the_holy_thom]

Ares capships (the Cometfall missileship - its a bit poo really, just get close and its dead) can be found only on the Point Juno mission methinks

[Guest]

I agree that Dreadnoughts are far too common. I recenly saw *two* of them gating in less than one minute apart. I don't think they(capships other than Xenophobe, Hurin, Ventari.) should only gate in if two conditions are met.

1. The building that they come from is under attack.

2. The building that they come from has lost its ship.

As things are, I ran into a system with *3* Ranx fortresses and *3* Ranx outposts. If there were 6 Ranx fortresses, I do not think the system would run out of Dreadnoughts, Even with all of the fortresses destroyed .

well no matter how powerful you make the station there will be a problem. If you make the station too powerfull then the reenforcements will just overwealm the capships. If you just make it so the reenforcements are weak then there are going to be huge piles of friendly ships outside every friendly base. (Ranx can already outrange them if they can fire from farther that means that they would not find stations even more of the time)

Reinforcements? I was talking about guns mounted on the stations. Every station that has to deal with Dreadnoughts has guns except for BMS(why they don't I don't know.). Any other station just repairs too fast for the Hurin(the only capship capable of destroying buildings early on) too destroy them. Dreadnoughts *will* destroy BMS, Commonwealth settlements way past St. K's, and CSC's if you let them linger that long.

PS: I didn't know that the Cometfall was the Ares capship. They really are easy.

[SparcMan]

Well, I have to agree that if capships are beefed up, they should be less frequent (and have more/better loot too!). One game when I was holding my own against two dreadnaughts at a time (Using only a Yori MX I think), a third dreadnaught showed up and toasted me while I fumbled around to try and use a GoC. I was thinking "Ok, one I can handle no problem, two is a challenge, but three?? You've got to be joking!)

[Fossaman]

Radical idea here:

Should we be able to kill capships?

Seriously. Should one tiny little fighter, pleasure yacht, or freighter be able to blow up a ship capable of destroying stations holding millions of people?

I know there was a thread on UTF about big battleships being blown up by torpedo planes and such. However, I think that armor in Transcendence, not to mention shields, make the analogy of old wooden sailing ships like greek triremes more apt. The bigger ship has more people and more brute force to use to smash the little ships, and the little ships can't do much damage at all to the large ones.

[Revolver]

Part of me says yes, the technology acts as an equalizer, but another part of me like the idea of not being able to destroy them. But, if we can't destroy capships, then what do we do to avoid them? Would the just get temporarily disabled and repair themselves, or would the eventually just leave the system...?

[george moromisato]

However, I think that armor in Transcendence, not to mention shields, make the analogy of old wooden sailing ships like greek triremes more apt. The bigger ship has more people and more brute force to use to smash the little ships, and the little ships can't do much damage at all to the large ones.

I have a few comments:

1. In Transcendence there is a disparity in technology. The player generally has access to much higher technology than his/her enemies. Why? Because at a time when technology is advancing rapidly, it is always easier to upgrade one ship than a whole fleet or ships. All things being equal, high-technology lets a little ship take on a big ship and win. Just imagine an F16 with GPS-guided bombs (and thus flying above cloud cover) taking on a WWII battleship. Now imagine arming the F16 with nuclear weapons...

2. Unlike present-day ships, defensive technology in Transcendence is improving as fast as offensive technologies. Shields and armor technology allow even a small ship to be well-defended.

3. Whether or not something is a "capital ship" depends on the current technology. When the HMS Dreadnought was built in 1906, it made all other battleships obsolete (its name was soon genericized and countries bragged about the number of "dreadnoughts" that they possessed).

In Transcendence, the peak of human technology is level X (roughly). At that level, only the CSCs and Ares cap ships (not yet in the game) count as capital ships. (Of course, this means that the CSCs should be a lot stronger). Ranx dreadnoughts are maybe one or two tech levels behind. I don't consider the Ventari cruiser or the Hurin destroyer to be "capital ships" anymore (although each was a capital ship in its time).

Obviously by the time the player gets beyond Heretic, the definition of capital ship will change again. Even the Iocrym command ship will probably not count.

4. I've made one minor change in the next version. Rather than having Ranx dreadnoughts and other large ships constantly appear in a system, I've added a limit (defined in the XML) so that if there are already (e.g.) 4 dreadnoughts in a system, no more will appear randomly.

[Revolver]

1. In Transcendence there is a disparity in technology. The player generally has access to much higher technology than his/her enemies. Why? Because at a time when technology is advancing rapidly, it is always easier to upgrade one ship than a whole fleet or ships. All things being equal, high-technology lets a little ship take on a big ship and win. Just imagine an F16 with GPS-guided bombs (and thus flying above cloud cover) taking on a WWII battleship. Now imagine arming the F16 with nuclear weapons...

I would have said a F18 armed with Harpoon missles, as they are specifically designed for the scenario you're trying to point out (one small fighter with the capability to destroy a much larger ship).

[george moromisato]

I would have said a F18 armed with Harpoon missles, as they are specifically designed for the scenario you're trying to point out (one small fighter with the capability to destroy a much larger ship).

Good point! Another good example would have been a Mirage armed with an Exocet missile.

[Revolver]

maybe...

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Exocet

Iraq used the air-launched version against Iranian shipping during the Iran-Iraq War with varying levels of success. On March 17, 1987, an Iraqi Mirage F-1 accidentally fired two exocets against the US Navy Perry class frigate USS Stark (FFG-31) , mistaking the vessel for an Iranian tanker; the Stark was heavily damaged but saved by the crew and sent back for repairs. Tankers and other civilian shipping was often hit (it is estimated that over 200 missiles were fired during the war), although a large percentage failed to explode (several warheads and, on occasions, complete missiles, were recovered from target ships by US and UK EOD teams).

...but on the other hand, it might be interesting if the lower class missles had a small chance of not having their warhead explode.

[Fossaman]

[quote=George Moromisato]at a time when technology is advancing rapidly, it is always easier to upgrade one ship than a whole fleet or ships[/quote]

I can certainly see the logic of that, George. But surely some ships would have more advanced technology; judging by the number of jury-rig technologies that are used by militaries today in wartime situations, I would think that both the commonwealth and the ares would be using whatever they could get their hands on.

This does make a great deal of sense; but I'd like to know where a lot of this new technology is coming from. Iocrym Veils? Lazarus shields? Are these coming from 'the library link' like the pteracnium megadrive? Are the Ringers building them? The Ventari? The Ranx?

It just seems like this needs a little more detail to be consistent.

[Revolver]

at a time when technology is advancing rapidly, it is always easier to upgrade one ship than a whole fleet or ships

I can certainly see the logic of that, George. But surely some ships would have more advanced technology; judging by the number of jury-rig technologies that are used by militaries today in wartime situations, I would think that both the commonwealth and the ares would be using whatever they could get their hands on.

This does make a great deal of sense; but I'd like to know where a lot of this new technology is coming from. Iocrym Veils? Lazarus shields? Are these coming from 'the library link' like the pteracnium megadrive? Are the Ringers building them? The Ventari? The Ranx?

It just seems like this needs a little more detail to be consistent.

You're making an interesting comparison here, bolting a few extra plates of steel onto the side of a Humvee during war is a lot different than jury-rigging an entire capital ship. I can see having some advanced Ares/Ranx fighters similar to the Corsair I/II, but I doubt that you'd see an entire battle fleet of Dreadnaughts with a layer of improvised armor. It would be heavy, time consuming and expensive. This does bring up an interesting point of where to the larger capships come from? Do the Ranx and Slavers have thier own shipyards somewhere or do they buy them?

[the_holy_thom]

Also, a variation of capships would make sense. The HUGE ships of the past were often one off variants, different from the previous and the next capship. Maybe a small variation in weaponary/defense would work. It would also keep you on your toes as to how to deal with it.

[OddBob]

I doubt that you'd see an entire battle fleet of Dreadnaughts with a layer of improvised armor. It would be heavy, time consuming and expensive.

A layer? Yes. Impractical. But the folks that build stuff like this often don't have to fight in them (or don't test for every eventuality), leaving funny little things that don't always work great in actual combat. But on patrol, you have lots of time, if not always resources to jury-rig your stuff.
When you've got nothing to do at the moment, why not improve the systems you're responsible for, in the interest of saving your own hide when push comes to shove.

I'd like to see variations in all ships, but capships would benefit a lot, even if it was randomized from four or so designs.