Drivers and Reactors Should be Slotless.

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Viymese
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Sun Dec 23, 2012 3:59 am

They're two items that are required for the ship to function so Upgrading them shouldn't take space that is reserved for weapons, shields, and misc. Devices that aren't the reactor or the Ships Engine.

What do you guys think?

TranscendentGeek
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Sun Dec 23, 2012 4:12 am

There are mods available that achieve this without requiring and changes in the games core programming.

shanejfilomena
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Sun Dec 23, 2012 5:31 pm

While it has always been on the drawing board of many unid holders, the idea of slotlesss reactors and unlimited fuel detracts from the core ideal and attraction of the game:

what was once been "fun to play a game" has become a Challenge based ideal because without challenge there was no point.
as digital Pets were set to expire, so came the need for fuel and food in many challenge based games.

A Undercover popular game that is close to the idea of Transcendence has only recently added fuel requirements ( and their fan club suffered because they obviously don't have what it takes to fly a ship that is going to require more then minimum attention spans.)

Transcendence offers challenges from the start: Domina doesn't call on Fools to fly her ships. She calls the very best Pilots ( they just don't know how good they are when they start )
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PM
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Sun Dec 23, 2012 5:39 pm

A mod that makes stock reactors slotless needs to overwrite them, and it will not overwrite custom reactors from other mods.

Of all of the item types in Transcendence, a reactor of some kind is required in every game (except for fringe challenge games). I would like to see them slotless (and maybe reduce non-weapon slots by one), so that people know how many non-weapon slots a ship really has left for customization. Currently, a ship's non-weapon slot limit is really non-weapon slots minus one.

Engines are not required for every ship. Wolfen is (barely) fast enough without one, and has better uses for its limited non-weapon slots.
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Watch TV, Do Nothing
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Mon Dec 24, 2012 4:13 am

PM wrote: Of all of the item types in Transcendence, a reactor of some kind is required in every game (except for fringe challenge games). I would like to see them slotless (and maybe reduce non-weapon slots by one), so that people know how many non-weapon slots a ship really has left for customization. Currently, a ship's non-weapon slot limit is really non-weapon slots minus one.
As the guy who was constantly playing said fringe challenge games I feel obliged to chip in. :D The last time that this subject came up I said that I opposed making reactors slotless because it would rob reactorless players of the extra slot.

I've changed my mind on that, though. After a few more playthroughs I realized that- on the freighter, at least- the extra slot just isn't needed and that I usually had one or two slots still free by the time I got to Heretic. So yeah, I agree that reactors should be slotless and that all ships should lose a slot to reduce confusion.

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Mon Dec 24, 2012 1:52 pm

Either way, the result will be the same: if you want more slots for weapons and equipment go fly a mod ship, make your own even.
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Viymese
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Mon Dec 24, 2012 8:01 pm

shanejfilomena wrote:While it has always been on the drawing board of many unid holders, the idea of slotlesss reactors and unlimited fuel detracts from the core ideal and attraction of the game:

what was once been "fun to play a game" has become a Challenge based ideal because without challenge there was no point.
as digital Pets were set to expire, so came the need for fuel and food in many challenge based games.

A Undercover popular game that is close to the idea of Transcendence has only recently added fuel requirements ( and their fan club suffered because they obviously don't have what it takes to fly a ship that is going to require more then minimum attention spans.)

Transcendence offers challenges from the start: Domina doesn't call on Fools to fly her ships. She calls the very best Pilots ( they just don't know how good they are when they start )
I never said in this topic I would like unlimited fuel. I simply said that upgrading the two components that give a ship power and movement shouldn't hold slots because they are necessary and while I didn't post this earlier all the upgrades do right now is over ride the base ship reactor stats and engine stats until you uninstall the new driver/Engine.
FourFire wrote:Either way, the result will be the same: if you want more slots for weapons and equipment go fly a mod ship, make your own even.
I have already done that... and even though it is fun it isn't as fun as the base game is. so I made it as similar as I could to the base game ships and just had even more fun! having a challenge is more fun than no challenge at all. that challenge being opportunity cost an if something will help me or hurt me later.
PM wrote:A mod that makes stock reactors slotless needs to overwrite them, and it will not overwrite custom reactors from other mods.

Of all of the item types in Transcendence, a reactor of some kind is required in every game (except for fringe challenge games). I would like to see them slotless (and maybe reduce non-weapon slots by one), so that people know how many non-weapon slots a ship really has left for customization. Currently, a ship's non-weapon slot limit is really non-weapon slots minus one.

Engines are not required for every ship. Wolfen is (barely) fast enough without one, and has better uses for its limited non-weapon slots.
I like the idea the middle paragraph puts out but all the ships have a base engine and base reactor right? if those two items were to be removed all you would have is a ship that can't move or operate any wepons. An asteroid or wreck basically. So technically yes, all the ships require an engine but that is me nit picking... In either case I get your point that as things are right now, certain ships don't require better engines, and that a reactor of some kind is required in most every game.

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Tue Dec 25, 2012 9:05 am

I agree with slotless reactors, I play nearly every game with them, and especially alongside something like PDrones, which George has expressed interest in making part of core funtionality, its nice to know that X slots MEANS X slots

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Fri Dec 28, 2012 11:11 am

Reactors are pretty much mandatory and should probably be slotless. Drives are not and should not be slotless. The Sapphire and Wolfen can both be played with the starting drive. So can most non-freighter mod ships (since most of them use drive stats similar to the Sapphire or Wolfen).
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Fri Dec 28, 2012 9:49 pm

Watch TV, Do Nothing wrote:... on the freighter, at least- the extra slot just isn't needed and that I usually had one or two slots still free by the time I got to Heretic. ...
C'mon! At least consider using an extra solar panel array if nothing else.

I advise against slotless reactors... it will limit the amount of potential cool stuff involving reactor customization (double-slot reactors, reactor arrays, etc.) in Post-Heretic and Human Space II, not to mention making it much harder to provide stats for capital ships and stations (unless you honestly believe that the TL8 XenoArk uses a TL9 reactor).
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PM
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Fri Dec 28, 2012 10:11 pm

When I ask for slotless reactors, I ask for reactors to count as one slot less. The standard reactors that require one slot become slotless. A big, custom reactor that would take two slots take one slot instead.
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TVR
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Sat Dec 29, 2012 1:10 am

If you were to take every ship and subtract a device slot, and then shift all device slot requirements for reactors down one, you would have successfully nullified the gameplay reasons for making reactors slotless.

Except you haven't. Now you have a "hidden" slot that can only be used for additional reactors, which would require an additional deviceItem category specifically for it. No longer can you use that slot for anything other than a reactor, for no reactor runs. No longer do ships benefit from a specifically-designed, integrated, non-removable base reactor, when having an aftermarket attachment would provide identical functionality. No longer could you possibly ever create an add-on auxiliary reactor that boosts power output. Instead, you now have to explain why certain reactors take a device slot or two, while others don't use any, and why you can't stack the slotless reactors. Do you really believe it would be easier to explain that to first-time players than reactor upgrades just taking a device slot or two?

It's unintuitive, hard to justify, and lacking in scalability. Nothing changes other than at the ship selection screen, at the cost of needing to rewrite all custom ship stats, restricting present gameplay choices, and limiting all future expansion of the ship equipment system in Transcendence.
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PM
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Tue Jan 01, 2013 1:42 am

TVR wrote:If you were to take every ship and subtract a device slot, and then shift all device slot requirements for reactors down one, you would have successfully nullified the gameplay reasons for making reactors slotless.
If reactors become slotless, and non-weapon slots reduced by one across-the-board, the accomplishment is that players, especially newcomers, know exactly how many non-weapon slots are available. As things are, telling a player his Wolfen has four non-weapon slots for customization is a lie - he really only has three because the reactor upgrade permanently eats one of those slots. Shield will likely eat another slot for most, if not all, of the game, due to lack of special armor.
TVR wrote:No longer can you use that slot for anything other than a reactor, for no reactor runs.
A powerful reactor is far more valuable than an extra slot for ship with 25MW or less (read: all of them in non-PSD games). If you are a great enough gamer to play without a reactor upgrade and use weaksauce through the whole game, you are also great enough to not need the slot.
TVR wrote:Instead, you now have to explain why certain reactors take a device slot or two, while others don't use any, and why you can't stack the slotless reactors.
Same (or different but equally [in]valid) reason why the rest of the items take zero, one, or two slots.

Reactors do not stack in any case. Install a reactor item, and your ship's default reactor is suppressed for as long the new reactor remains installed.
Some other item types also do not stack, possibly due to metagame reasons.
TVR wrote:Do you really believe it would be easier to explain that to first-time players than reactor upgrades just taking a device slot or two?
When I played the Wolfen for the first time, for my first game, I thought four non-weapon slots would be enough. After my first reactor upgrade, when I realized it and future upgrades would consume one of those slots permanently, and another slot for shield, leaving me with only two non-weapon slots for miscellaneous devices, I was outraged! The least the game could have done is tell me, at the ship select screen before a game start, that a reactor upgrade would consume one of the non-weapon slots available for customization. A slotless reactor that did not count toward my slot limit would be better.
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Tue Jan 01, 2013 4:05 am

I think I'm with PM on this. There are a couple possible solutions.

The base reactor could be made to take a slot so the available slots count in the ship select screen is lower. This is maybe possible in the C++ using the dynamic types code. It involves new, complicated compiled code and has significant bug potential.

Or we could make reactors slotless. This is easy. It can be done entirely in the tdb. It is a simple data change that has negligible chance of causing new bugs.

These are the only ways to make ship info not misleading. Either all reactors need to be slotless or none can be, including the starter reactors that are different for every ship.

I don't believe that drives should be slotless because they aren't necessary. Making them slotless would erase the differences between the Sapphire and Wolfen. The nerf of the Wolfen and Sapphire losing slots is not worth any confusion cleared up for the EI500.
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Tue Jan 01, 2013 6:27 am

PM wrote:... If you are a great enough gamer to play without a reactor upgrade and use weaksauce through the whole game, you are also great enough to not need the slot. ...
That is completely arbitrary.
PM wrote:... Same (or different but equally [in]valid) reason why the rest of the items take zero, one, or two slots. ...
No station installed device takes zero slots. This would be the first exception.
PM wrote:... When I played the Wolfen for the first time, for my first game, I thought four non-weapon slots would be enough. ...
If you were playing for the first time, you wouldn't even know what devices exist, let alone the min-maxed loadout for each ship.
PM wrote:... The least the game could have done is tell me, at the ship select screen before a game start, that a reactor upgrade would consume one of the non-weapon slots available for customization. ...
Ship customization stats are meaningless to first time players. What's the difference between 6 tons max and 10 tons max, if you don't even know any other armors?

You could explain the entire game to the player on the ship select screen, but it would be pointless.
Atarlost wrote:... Either all reactors need to be slotless or none can be, including the starter reactors that are different for every ship. ...
A base reactor can't be counted as a device, it has different properties; a base reactor can't be removed nor ionized nor enhanced.

In fact, I just discovered that being ionized with no devices installed causes a fatal error in Transcendence.exe, anyone care to post that to the trac?
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