Fortunately, you can write your own AI scripts in a behaviour class. It is kinda fun to do so and give enemies a whole new feel (and make them a whole lot more threatening at the same time).JohnBWatson wrote:From what I've seen, it's a question of a lack of AI capability, not any fundamental constant in the design, role, or armament of the ships.
That sounds pretty cool.pixelfck wrote:Fortunately, you can write your own AI scripts in a behaviour class. It is kinda fun to do so and give enemies a whole new feel (and make them a whole lot more threatening at the same time).JohnBWatson wrote:From what I've seen, it's a question of a lack of AI capability, not any fundamental constant in the design, role, or armament of the ships.
~Pixelfck
The tactics you describe would not work. The only gunship that can dodge and fire at the same time is the Kobol variant with the omni TeV. Britannias cannot fly fast enough to stay behind a Phobos from outside its turret range. The only way to focus fire on a single segment of anything not using the standoff AI is to lead it around by the nose, which puts you staring down the spinal cannon. The only reason players can kill Phoboses repeatably is that the AI doesn't fire any non-tracking weapon that will take more than about 1.2 seconds to arrive and that the Phobos has fewer facings than playerships do.JohnBWatson wrote:From what I've seen, it's a question of a lack of AI capability, not any fundamental constant in the design, role, or armament of the ships. Imagine 10 - 15 Centurions using their superior maneuverability and small size to draw fire from just within turret range, drawing back when fired upon and fleeing whenever their shields fail, while 5 Britannias focus fire on the rear of the ship, darting back whenever the Phobos manages to target them long enough to significantly weaken their shields. Remember, the average player takes down about five of the things, generally singlehandedly, and those 20 fighters are a fraction of a CSC's fighter complement(a group of 4 CSCs was said by Decker to field hundreds of Centurions).Atarlost wrote:Considering that carrier launched strike craft cannot threaten capital ships in Transcendence that's a very good choice on the Ares part.
The Tev9 and KSC both outrange the lightning turrets, leaving the Phobos only its Archcannon to engage the more distant targets. Ultimately, the Phobos will need to either focus on attacking one gunship, leaving others to attack with impunity while it draws fire, or constantly switch targets, a task that the Ares have not designed their fleet for carrying out which would, even executed optimally, leave the Phobos open to continued harassment.The only gunship that can dodge and fire at the same time is the Kobol variant with the omni TeV.
A group of fighters has as many firing points as it does fighters, making it quite difficult to ensure that each of these fighters is being kept away from a vulnerable or damaged armor segment, as we've all been taught at least once by a swarm of Hornet battlepods. This, combined with the fact that, given the KSC's piercing ability, it is not necessary to focus on a single segment so much as a general area, and even then precision isn't quite so needed. There's also the fact that a KSC's range is vastly greater than that of the turret(in testing, I was able to eliminate a Phobos fairly quickly with a KSC without it dropping my shields(R5) a single time), making the turrets something of an afterthought even without Centurions running harassment.Britannias cannot fly fast enough to stay behind a Phobos from outside its turret range.
The Commonwealth may not have speed, armor, or sheer firepower on their side, but they do have fast, cheap weapons with surprisingly high range, and enough fighters to deploy them quite well against a large target susceptible to long range bombardment. Another factor that comes into play here and supplements the above is size. It's much easier for a Centurion or Britannia to hit a Phobos from across a good distance than for the Phobos to hit back. Coupled with these means of the speed at which even one Brittania can bring down a Phobos's shields and armor make it a viable counter with the right amount of finesse.Transcendence just doesn't have the sort of Swordfish vs Bismark maneuverability gaps that make fighters a good idea.
Not true of the Tev9, and Starcannon armed ships are not available in sufficient numbers.JohnBWatson wrote:The Tev9 and KSC both outrange the lightning turrets, leaving the Phobos only its Archcannon to engage the more distant targets.The only gunship that can dodge and fire at the same time is the Kobol variant with the omni TeV.
This presumes the Ares continue to operate at the dumb-as-a-box-of-rocks level of the AI while the Commonwealth uses advanced tactics. The Deimos is called a destroyer for good reason: it is meant to operate in support of the battle line, defending against torpedo boat analogues. It has a powerful long range weapon on a substantial swivel with which to do the job.Ultimately, the Phobos will need to either focus on attacking one gunship, leaving others to attack with impunity while it draws fire, or constantly switch targets, a task that the Ares have not designed their fleet for carrying out which would, even executed optimally, leave the Phobos open to continued harassment.
There are no vulnerable segments not created by focused fire. You are giving up your claimed advantage by spreading out.A group of fighters has as many firing points as it does fighters, making it quite difficult to ensure that each of these fighters is being kept away from a vulnerable or damaged armor segment, as we've all been taught at least once by a swarm of Hornet battlepods.
As I said in the previous post, this is only true because the AI handling of non-seeking long range weapons is faulty and the ship in question has fewer facings than you. If these were not the case one archcannon shot will take out practically any gunship.There's also the fact that a KSC's range is vastly greater than that of the turret(in testing, I was able to eliminate a Phobos fairly quickly with a KSC without it dropping my shields(R5) a single time), making the turrets something of an afterthought even without Centurions running harassment.
No, they don't. They have an inadequate supply of Britannias bulked out by hopelessly obsolete Centurions and the Ares fleet mix is only vulnerable to long range bombardment because the AI is too simple.The Commonwealth may not have speed, armor, or sheer firepower on their side, but they do have fast, cheap weapons with surprisingly high range, and enough fighters to deploy them quite well against a large target susceptible to long range bombardment.
Not when using spinal guns against turrets, and Ares destroyers have a 30 degree turret arc on their long range weapons. The Centurion doesn't outrange the 360 degree rapid fire turrets both Ares capital ships possess.Another factor that comes into play here and supplements the above is size. It's much easier for a Centurion or Britannia to hit a Phobos from across a good distance than for the Phobos to hit back.
Previously you were discussing a gunship strike against a Phobos, now you're discussing a Phobos attacking a CSC. That puts a time limit on killing the Phobos. A Phobos can pound a carrier to wreckage faster than a starcannon can stop a Phobos when all the shots are hitting the same armor segment. You also dramatically overestimate the speed of a CSC. Absent a more powerful fortified position to retreat to the Phobos would be able to pursue it through the stargate network until it died. The speed differential is too great for the Carrier to ever disengage.Furthermore, the purpose of these fighters is the defense of a CSC. Should the Phobos attempt to turn the only weapon it is capable of retaliating with against its attackers, it loses its course and gives the carrier time to escape to a different area, incurring damage all the while.
Yeah, an unsupported battleship might be vulnerable to torpedo boat analogues. Maybe that's why the Ares also have a destroyer model in mass production.Should it instead make a beeline for the Carrier's position(Assuming the carrier does not have the time to escape regardless), it is all but certain to incur a huge amount of damage from the unimpeded bombardment, quite likely leaving it incapable of defeating the carrier that deployed them before succumbing to the collective damage of all of the weapons trained on it.
Tested it out. Range is just barely better, and from around max it's easy enough to dodge away when fired upon. In a large enough group at optimal distance, with AI set to retreat on heavy shield damage, a Tev9 armed ship is essentially safe.Atarlost wrote: Not true of the Tev9,
It's hard to make a conclusive determination here either way. In gameplay, the ratio of Phobii to CSCs is anywhere from 1:1 to 3:1 depending on whether the player chooses to simply knock out the shipyards on their way through or whether they rank up through the fleet twice over and always end up rolling a Phobos as the unknown hostile in the high level missions, and each CSC seems to have a theoretically infinite number of Britannias(upwards of 20 each if you've ranked up completely on a single carrier). The game's lore indicates that the Britannia and Phobos are the newest ships in their respective fleets, meaning that they can likely be said to be equally present on the battlefield, and the fleet missions provide the player with with 6 per Phobos, which seems to indicate that my ratio of 5 : 1 is fairly reasonable.and Starcannon armed ships are not available in sufficient numbers.
This presumes the Ares continue to operate at the dumb-as-a-box-of-rocks level of the AI while the Commonwealth uses advanced tactics. The Deimos is called a destroyer for good reason: it is meant to operate in support of the battle line, defending against torpedo boat analogues. It has a powerful long range weapon on a substantial swivel with which to do the job.
A group can spread out and still focus fire, especially against a ship as large as the Phobos, and especially with a piercing weapon like the Katana.There are no vulnerable segments not created by focused fire. You are giving up your claimed advantage by spreading out.
You can't even focus on a general area and piercing has no particular benefit for doing so.
A targeted ship can typically avoid cannon fire easily enough when that's the only thing it has to do. Time spent pursuing that ship is time the other ships have to continue bombardment. Time spent turning while switching targets is time the new target has to get more distance, other attackers have to leave the area being targeted and resume their bombardment, and the old target has to turn around and continue attacking. There's also the fact that trying to aim a spinal weapon sends you off course, and the carrier thus has more time to relocate.As I said in the previous post, this is only true because the AI handling of non-seeking long range weapons is faulty and the ship in question has fewer facings than you. If these were not the case one archcannon shot will take out practically any gunship.
No, they don't. They have an inadequate supply of Britannias bulked out by hopelessly obsolete Centurions
The only way to improve an AI is to be able to comprehensively explain what it ought to do. Suggest an AI routine that you believe would work, and, if there is one, look into modding it in. I'd love to play a mod where a ball of fusionfire howitzers, tritium injectors, and duct tape isn't the end - all counter to capital ships.and the Ares fleet mix is only vulnerable to long range bombardment because the AI is too simple.
The range is about even, and the turrets can only attack one target at a time. A group of Centurions operating at their maximum range and dodging out when fired upon are effectively immune to turret fire. The Destroyers are more capable due to their ability to better aim their main weapon, but the projectile speed and fire rate are low enough that the Centurions can avoid it with reasonable consistency, and the damage isn't enough that a single hit could kill a fully shielded Centurion.Not when using spinal guns against turrets, and Ares destroyers have a 30 degree turret arc on their long range weapons. The Centurion doesn't outrange the 360 degree rapid fire turrets both Ares capital ships possess.
The subject of this thread is the defensive strategies of stations. The CSC acts like an (albeit unconventional) station, and we are discussing its means of protecting itself against a powerful and long - ranged attacker, a useful subject given that this is what the typical late - game player resembles compared to many of the game's hostile factions.Previously you were discussing a gunship strike against a Phobos, now you're discussing a Phobos attacking a CSC.
Again, you assume the Phobos can track its target outside of visual range. The targeting ROM that lets the player do this is a Commonwealth invention, and there is no reason to assume the Ares would be in possession of any, especially considering their plot description, "a utopian society free of dissent", is hardly conducive to software development. A Phobos that makes a direct line for a CSC has no means of defending itself against a group of Britannias, and is quite likely to die before reaching its target due to the fact that they can effectively focus fire without any retaliation. A Phobos that attempts to use its spinal gun to defend itself loses its course and gives the Carrier additional time to escape.That puts a time limit on killing the Phobos. A Phobos can pound a carrier to wreckage faster than a starcannon can stop a Phobos when all the shots are hitting the same armor segment. You also dramatically overestimate the speed of a CSC. Absent a more powerful fortified position to retreat to the Phobos would be able to pursue it through the stargate network until it died. The speed differential is too great for the Carrier to ever disengage.
I've already covered that.Yeah, an unsupported battleship might be vulnerable to torpedo boat analogues. Maybe that's why the Ares also have a destroyer model in mass production.
They aren't stupid. That's why they don't attempt a Phobos rush.tl;dr: You're implicitly assuming the Ares are stupid. They're not.
That's an artifact of the game drawing the Phobos sprite several light seconds long. The weapons have the same range.JohnBWatson wrote:Tested it out. Range is just barely better, and from around max it's easy enough to dodge away when fired upon. In a large enough group at optimal distance, with AI set to retreat on heavy shield damage, a Tev9 armed ship is essentially safe.Atarlost wrote: Not true of the Tev9,
Sensor range is in the XML. A Phobos or Deimos can see as far as a CSC and any of the three can see 50% farther than a Centurion or Britannia.The Ares haven't been shown to use as much or as advanced communications technology as the Fleet. Case in point, the CSCs always seem to know when and where the Ares convoys are coming from, while the Ares rarely set up a preemptive attack plan against the Fleet's transports, and the Rogue Fleet is the only group that actually prepares for its attack(albeit by laying mines a few ls away from where they'd actually hit the transport, but chalk that up to a glitch). They seem to need direct squadron leadership to continue an assault of any caliber of organization(as seen at Point Juno), and they don't seem to even be able to organize their retreat effectively if they end up routed and forced to retreat from the system, as the Cometfalls still move in afterwards.
This is also an artifact of the size at which the game draws projectiles. Only particle clouds, explosions, and deliberate point defense fire from devices like the ICX would really be effective at shooting down projectiles.In addition, the sheer unguided power of the Phobos's primary weapon leaves a high risk of friendly fire against an expensive warship, the Deimos does not seem to be any more maneuverable or agile than the Phobos, and the Deimos's weapons are vulnerable to being avoided or being shot down midflight.
This is flatly not true. The construction table is consulted for every ship the yard builds and every shipyard produces all types of ships.The main problem with such a strategy, however, is that Ares shipyards are specialized to a degree that would make getting this force together in the first place a brutal and difficult task. Each shipyard only produces a single type of advanced ship, with some building and maintaining a pair of Deimoses, some dedicated to a single Phobos, and some housing a squadron of Chasms. Assuming a Deimos yard and a Phobos yard are even in the same system as both each other and a CSC, an absolute necessity if one wishes to avoid a costly and raid - saturated voyage towards a target that won't even be there when the assault force arrives, the yard dispatching its fleet to join with the other's would be vulnerable to a quick and damaging raid by a Commonwealth squadron, and the fleet in transit even more so, and the Carrier, even if it could not leave the system, would have ample time to select a new location.
You're using the moronic AI to justify the Ares being morons here. The Phobos acts like a guard in a stealth game because the AI is not sophisticated enough for it to do otherwise. The Phobos only patrols because if they were given wander orders they would kill important stations.Ultimately, the current Ares Phobos doctrine, sans the part seen in the rank 5 missions where they throw a clueless and undefended Phobos into a random system and expect it to accomplish something meaningful, is fairly optimal. A Phobos patrolling in a medium radius around a shipyard denies the Commonwealth any shipping routes through that area, allows the quick deployment of a strike force to thwart any attacks on the Phobos, provides for easy refueling, and allows the Phobos to rapidly fend off any attacks on the nearby infrastructure from outside sentry range. The sole issue, of course, being that the Phobos tends to act like a guard in a stealth game, only pursuing those that attack the station for a short while and resuming its route shortly afterwards without even a modicrum of additional vigilance.
No, they really can't. There's no way to target a section beyond short range and anything coming within 80 lights will be turret killed unless it's a capital ship at a similar technology level.A group can spread out and still focus fire, especially against a ship as large as the Phobos, and especially with a piercing weapon like the Katana.
That is the opposite of focusing fire. The fastest way to kill a Phobos is to fire down the length hitting the front center segments as much as possible. Any damage to other segments is wasted. You're being mislead by George's incorrect valuation of the passthrough property making the Katana about a level and a half lower level than its damage justifies.Try attacking a Phobos with a Katana Star Cannon. Hitting two or more segments half the time is indeed an advantage for quickly damaging an area of a ship's armor, especially when attacking with a group of ships. It makes getting one of the armor segments down to zero a much quicker task when you're in a firefight and thus not as able to perfectly hone in on a single 14 degree angle.
A ship evading cannon fire cannot use its spinal weapon. There is only one non-pilgrim ship that can evade and fire: the Kobol gunship variant with the omni-TeV9.A targeted ship can typically avoid cannon fire easily enough when that's the only thing it has to do.
The gameplay itself seems to contradict this. Do you have a source for this claim?
Code: Select all
(cat "\n\nThe minister from Zhang Li makes an impassioned appeal for " "a bill funding the construction of three new Commonwealth Star Carriers. " "She shows pictures of refugees displaced by the Ares, but the chamber " "is nearly empty and her energy fades in mid-speech.")
Code: Select all
(cat "The minister from 70 Ophiuchi speaks in the Center Well:\n\n" "\"...and so I urge my fellow ministers to meet this challenge. With the " "appropriations of CP1175 we can finally provide enough resources to the " "Militia in order to secure the safety of our citizens against Marauder tyranny.\"")Code: Select all
"A man with a prosthetic arm sits next to you: \"I've been flying for the militia for years, but I'd much rather be helping the Fleet. No one's seen them in a long time. They must be at the Ares Homeworld by now.\""Code: Select all
"A woman sits next to you: \"My husband is in the Commonwealth Fleet and I haven't seen him for years. Sometimes I get messages from him, but it's never good news.\""Thousands of researchers have been trying for decades to make a decent AI. They have not met with success. In Transcendence in particular the AI is hardcoded and its major flaws cannot be corrected even if I did happen to have the source code of a Concordiat Bolo to plug in and a PC sufficient to run it.The only way to improve an AI is to be able to comprehensively explain what it ought to do. Suggest an AI routine that you believe would work, and, if there is one, look into modding it in. I'd love to play a mod where a ball of fusionfire howitzers, tritium injectors, and duct tape isn't the end - all counter to capital ships.
The range is about even, and the turrets can only attack one target at a time. A group of Centurions operating at their maximum range and dodging out when fired upon are effectively immune to turret fire. The Destroyers are more capable due to their ability to better aim their main weapon, but the projectile speed and fire rate are low enough that the Centurions can avoid it with reasonable consistency, and the damage isn't enough that a single hit could kill a fully shielded Centurion.[/quote]Not when using spinal guns against turrets, and Ares destroyers have a 30 degree turret arc on their long range weapons. The Centurion doesn't outrange the 360 degree rapid fire turrets both Ares capital ships possess.
What makes a capital ship a capital ship is not big guns, it's slow speed, lots of internal structure, and turrets in secondary slots. If you want to make it hard for the player you need a completely different response. Since players are discomfited by knockback and display obscuring explosions, Britannias and S2 missiles are a viable response. Against real capital ships the only viable response is to not be so far behind on technology.The subject of this thread is the defensive strategies of stations. The CSC acts like an (albeit unconventional) station, and we are discussing its means of protecting itself against a powerful and long - ranged attacker, a useful subject given that this is what the typical late - game player resembles compared to many of the game's hostile factions.
The Phobos can track targets outside of visual range. That's defined by the perception attribute of the AIsettings tag. You're making stuff up from whole cloth. Your preconceptions of utopia are at odds with George's sources. Ares is Union. Ares Prime is Cyteen. The non-dissenting clones that make up the utopian society are non-dissenting because the Ares are so good at software they can write stuff that will reliably run on human brains. And escape is impossible. There's nowhere to run to because it's only gameplay/story segregation that prevents pursuit through stargates. A Phobos has eight times the top speed of a CSC. A CSC can no more escape a Phobos than a hobbled man can escape a man on a motorbike.Again, you assume the Phobos can track its target outside of visual range. The targeting ROM that lets the player do this is a Commonwealth invention, and there is no reason to assume the Ares would be in possession of any, especially considering their plot description, "a utopian society free of dissent", is hardly conducive to software development. A Phobos that makes a direct line for a CSC has no means of defending itself against a group of Britannias, and is quite likely to die before reaching its target due to the fact that they can effectively focus fire without any retaliation. A Phobos that attempts to use its spinal gun to defend itself loses its course and gives the Carrier additional time to escape.
You don't need lock. If a pursuer can see the pursuee gate then if the pursuer is faster than the pursuee the pursuee will be within sensor range when the pursuer gates. The CSC is the slowest thing in the game.Furthermore, you mention pursuing the ship across the stargate network. Maintaining a lock across gates is outright impossible in the Transcendence universe, ROM or no ROM, as a lack of FTL communication has been confirmed multiple times.
I assume that's how far it can conventionally detect new targets, given that, at present, I can flee across an entire system and any hostiles chasing(on vengeance) me will continue to do so. With that assumption in place, targeting ROMs are still a factor.Atarlost wrote:
Sensor range is in the XML. A Phobos or Deimos can see as far as a CSC and any of the three can see 50% farther than a Centurion or Britannia.
The game deletes projectiles when weapons fire comes into contact with them. If that were not intentional, I doubt it would occur.This is also an artifact of the size at which the game draws projectiles. Only particle clouds, explosions, and deliberate point defense fire from devices like the ICX would really be effective at shooting down projectiles.
When all a gunship must do is dodge, it can dodge well enough to survive. I've fallen into APA range a few times on my playthroughs, and I've been able to escape.The Phobos is more than maneuverable enough to fire on any gunship that tries to stay out of ion turret range. The Deimos has a 30 degree fire arc.
We are assuming that this is a general doctrine, given that every shipyard in the game is only guarded by a single type of 'special' Ares ship. If you plan to have the Ares outright build these ships at the same shipyard the Phobos will be launched from, there's no way the CSC isn't getting out of the system beforehand, even if you don't discount the fact that the current shipyard build rates are highly exaggerated. There's also the fact that the Deimos is a fairly big ship that requires a lot of materials, and Ares transports are fairly trivial for a CSC to take out.This is flatly not true. The construction table is consulted for every ship the yard builds and every shipyard produces all types of ships.
You're using the moronic AI to justify the Ares being morons here. The Phobos acts like a guard in a stealth game because the AI is not sophisticated enough for it to do otherwise.
The Phobos, given wander orders, would likely end up dead to a Ringer station. This is probably how all of us dealt with the first one we found.The Phobos only patrols because if they were given wander orders they would kill important stations.
The turrets are fairly trivial to avoid the brunt of, even at medium range. That's the basis behind most of the short range engagement strategies players have used.No, they really can't. There's no way to target a section beyond short range and anything coming within 80 lights will be turret killed unless it's a capital ship at a similar technology level.
That is the fastest way, but 5 KSCs can kill it reasonably quickly even using a suboptimal method.That is the opposite of focusing fire. The fastest way to kill a Phobos is to fire down the length hitting the front center segments as much as possible. Any damage to other segments is wasted. You're being mislead by George's incorrect valuation of the passthrough property making the Katana about a level and a half lower level than its damage justifies.
There's more than one Fleet ship in play, and the Phobos can only target one at a time with its main weapon.A ship evading cannon fire cannot use its spinal weapon. There is only one non-pilgrim ship that can evade and fire: the Kobol gunship variant with the omni-TeV9.
Commonwealth Parliament: no one even shows up to vote on appropriations bills.[/quote]The gameplay itself seems to contradict this. Do you have a source for this claim?Code: Select all
(cat "\n\nThe minister from Zhang Li makes an impassioned appeal for " "a bill funding the construction of three new Commonwealth Star Carriers. " "She shows pictures of refugees displaced by the Ares, but the chamber " "is nearly empty and her energy fades in mid-speech.")
The Commonwealth's inability to clear out the criminal elements in its territory are nothing new. There's also no implication that this bill fails, given that the militia appears to be fairly well funded and well armed, if not particularly intelligent about how they combine these traits.Commonwealth Parliament: The Commonwealth can't even handle the marauders at present.Code: Select all
(cat "The minister from 70 Ophiuchi speaks in the Center Well:\n\n" "\"...and so I urge my fellow ministers to meet this challenge. With the " "appropriations of CP1175 we can finally provide enough resources to the " "Militia in order to secure the safety of our citizens against Marauder tyranny.\"")
Their new ships seem to be coming from the Ringers along with their fuel shipments. (I recall reading that the among the Fleet's major problems is a shortage of Rin to buy peternacium)Militia Fortress Bar: No one has seen the fleet ergo they are not receiving supplies from within the Commonwealth.Code: Select all
"A man with a prosthetic arm sits next to you: \"I've been flying for the militia for years, but I'd much rather be helping the Fleet. No one's seen them in a long time. They must be at the Ares Homeworld by now.\""
A lack of new good news is merely an indication that the Fleet's not winning. That's about as solidly canon as anything, with the Rogue Fleet's existence, the Ranx breaking off for lack of support, and the loss of the Europa backing it up. However, the other CSCs are still standing, and that means the Phobos hasn't yet shown itself to be the war-ender you claim it is. Furthermore, CSCs will deploy you against a Phobos with 6 Britannias and not be in absolute awe when you return, implying that:Militia Fortress Bar: Again with the fleet not being supplied properly. They are also faring poorly -- which shouldn't surprise anyone who can even spell logistics. This directly shows that either the new ships are useless or not available in sufficient numbers to be decisive. I suppose I could grant that they're available in large numbers and take this as textual proof they're not helping instead of taking it as evidence the numbers are lacking.Code: Select all
"A woman sits next to you: \"My husband is in the Commonwealth Fleet and I haven't seen him for years. Sometimes I get messages from him, but it's never good news.\""
I'm describing AI in terms of a game, not the singularity. The current AI for a Phobos attacking a target is:Thousands of researchers have been trying for decades to make a decent AI. They have not met with success.
Unfortunately, this is true for mods. If I'm not missing something here, the source code of Transcendence could still be edited to test a better AI, though it would be fairly difficult to do so. Still, this is a suggestions thread based around AI, so ideas for a better AI routine can be placed here, even if implementing them ourselves isn't ideal.In Transcendence in particular the AI is hardcoded and its major flaws cannot be corrected even if I did happen to have the source code of a Concordiat Bolo to plug in and a PC sufficient to run it.
A Centurion that is targeted can dodge while the others fire. A Centurion not being fired upon does not need to dodge. Switching targets simply changes the Centurion currently dodging to a different one, and all Centurions cannot be fired upon simultaneously.Centurions cannot dodge and fire at the same time. A Centurion that isn't firing isn't relevant. A Centurion that is firing is dead in short order.
What makes a capital ship a capital ship is not big guns, it's slow speed, lots of internal structure, and turrets in secondary slots.
Making the player uncomfortable doesn't fend off their attack. To defeat an attacking player, there needs to be some means of hitting them before they hit your defenses(similarly to how quickly Phobii can destroy CSC armor, the player only needs a handful of seconds to weaken a target station beyond the rate at which it can be repaired, if there is one), some means of fending off their attack if they can get in range, be it a way of not letting them in range in the first place, a point defense weapon, a lasting retaliation by station defenders, or something else entirely, and a means of using multiple inferior ships to fend off a single superior one(yes, there are some ships that can out - tech the player initially, but in most games the player typically ends up with equipment superior to what the enemy is fielding).If you want to make it hard for the player you need a completely different response. Since players are discomfited by knockback and display obscuring explosions, Britannias and S2 missiles are a viable response.
From real life naval doctrine, the Phobos is most analogous to a Battlecruiser, a heavily armed, fast moving warship derived from a battleship with less armor. The CSC, on the other hand, is most analogous to an aircraft carrier, the type of ship that made traditional battleships obsolete due to their long range striking power. Ultimately, given the parallels between Transcendence's universe and naval warfare, your statement can be said to be false, at least in terms of historical precedent.Against real capital ships the only viable response is to not be so far behind on technology.
How far outside of visual range? Can it track a carrier from across the system? Ultimately, if the Ares can track a CSC from anywhere once any ares ship has seen it once, and if they have the flawless communications you imply, they could simply send every ship in the system after it and every CSC in the game would be dead. That hasn't happened, and that isn't arguable. The subject of this discussion is not whether all of the CSCs have been destroyed - they have not been - and the goal here is to come up with an explanation for why, and a means of implementing that defensive strategy in game.The Phobos can track targets outside of visual range. That's defined by the perception attribute of the AIsettings tag. You're making stuff up from whole cloth. Your preconceptions of utopia are at odds with George's sources. Ares is Union. Ares Prime is Cyteen. The non-dissenting clones that make up the utopian society are non-dissenting because the Ares are so good at software they can write stuff that will reliably run on human brains. And escape is impossible. There's nowhere to run to because it's only gameplay/story segregation that prevents pursuit through stargates. A Phobos has eight times the top speed of a CSC. A CSC can no more escape a Phobos than a hobbled man can escape a man on a motorbike.
You're also forgetting Newton. The AI can't comprehend turning and not thrusting, but that's the fault of the AI, not the "reality" nor even the game engine. The carrier isn't actually gaining any time when the Phobos turns to swat a fly.
The time it takes to assemble a force of a Phobos and two Deimoses, scour the entire system for a CSC using lighter craft(which must then return to a station to relay their information, if the early Fleet missions are considered canon), and then deploy their main fleet is generally enough time for a CSC to escape to a different system without being seen. We can assume that CSCs in systems so heavily fortified by the Ares, a rare occurrence, take significant additional precautions to avoid detection and ensure that they can exit the system when needed.You don't need lock. If a pursuer can see the pursuee gate then if the pursuer is faster than the pursuee the pursuee will be within sensor range when the pursuer gates. The CSC is the slowest thing in the game.
This is similar to the strategy I've been suggesting. I believe it would work out well enough, assuming the AI for dodging works well enough and the non - targeted fighters make an effort to stay away from the targeted one.I think it's possible to down a Phobos by getting a lot, may be about a dozen, of fighters to surround it in a big circle, out of it's turrets range. Then every fighters except the ones in front of the Phobos fire at it, while maintaining the formation. The ones in front of the capitol ship dodge around, but try to keep in formation, going out just enough to dodge the Archcannon. If the Phobos turns, the fighters swap roles.
The Phobos needs to find the CSC before it can even begin pursuing it, giving the CSC plenty of time to fend off the assault entirely using the previously mentioned tactics. The Fleet missions show us that the CSCs are indeed capable of getting the jump on the Ares through an intelligence advantage. Now, there are theoretical fleets that could overwhelm a CSC, but the time required to track down a CSC, get the logistics set up to gather the fleet, and deploy it against the carrier is so great that the CSC would have more than enough time to escape.sun1404 wrote:It still seems that you overestimate the CSCs' speed. If when ships gate they appear at the destination gate like the player does, a CSC have no chance of fleeing from a Phobos. Or anything else, for that matter.
The capital ships present in a system are already built. To get new ships into the system, the Ares must either built them or requisition them from outside of the system, and both of these options take too long to catch a CSC before it has time to respond.And you seem to be assuming that while CSCs are already built and functioning, Ares capital ships are not and needs to be built when needed.
I'd think the Ares would gather a fleet, or at least a strike force first, and then search for a CSC. They know for sure there are CSCs left somewhere, they just need to see where exactly one is. So as soon as they find one, they can send a Phobos in immediately. The CSC is so slow, in the time it needs to get from one stargate to another, a Phobos could go through four or five systems. And even if the Phobos cannot come in time, it's simple to leave some of the scouting squad to see which stargate the CSC use to escape, and follow after a delay. Using a stargate is like going on an escalator. After one get in there's only one exit they can come out.JohnBWatson wrote: The Phobos needs to find the CSC before it can even begin pursuing it, giving the CSC plenty of time to fend off the assault entirely using the previously mentioned tactics. The Fleet missions show us that the CSCs are indeed capable of getting the jump on the Ares through an intelligence advantage. Now, there are theoretical fleets that could overwhelm a CSC, but the time required to track down a CSC, get the logistics set up to gather the fleet, and deploy it against the carrier is so great that the CSC would have more than enough time to escape.
Calling a Phobos into the system a CSC is in is very possible. As noted above, a Phobos could travel through many systems in the time a CSC needs to fly to the nearest stargate.The capital ships present in a system are already built. To get new ships into the system, the Ares must either built them or requisition them from outside of the system, and both of these options take too long to catch a CSC before it has time to respond.
sun1404 wrote: I'd think the Ares would gather a fleet, or at least a strike force first, and then search for a CSC.
Not quite. The Ares don't have instant communications with other stations like the commonwealth, or at least not on their most basic ships, as evidenced by the fact that Ares scouting patrols must escape the system to be successful and Ares transports do not request reinforcements from their bases like those of the Fleet.They know for sure there are CSCs left somewhere, they just need to see where exactly one is. So as soon as they find one, they can send a Phobos in immediately.
Phobii are quite fuel hungry, even moreso than CSCs. Keeping a shield generator on 24/7, which would be necessary to hold off raids, is by no means sustainable without refueling across multiple systems, even with reserve fuel. The stargate network is not canonically linear, meaning that tracking a ship across more than one system becomes exponentially more difficult over time. Leaving some of the scouting force is possible, but it's doubtful a small fraction of a scouting force could escape a CSC's squadrons and Tev9 array reliably.The CSC is so slow, in the time it needs to get from one stargate to another, a Phobos could go through four or five systems. And even if the Phobos cannot come in time, it's simple to leave some of the scouting squad to see which stargate the CSC use to escape, and follow after a delay.
Communication across systems is very difficult in the Transcendence universe. Furthermore, even if a Phobos were called in, it would have to contend with raids along its way(perhaps destroying it, if it did not delay itself to attempt to fight them off), the CSC's position, while not outside of the system outright, would have changed, forcing the Phobos to take additional time tracking it down, further exposing itself to raids and further giving the CSC opportunity to escape.Calling a Phobos into the system a CSC is in is very possible. As noted above, a Phobos could travel through many systems in the time a CSC needs to fly to the nearest stargate.