Improve Late Game Civilian Chips

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Kourtious
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Tue Apr 07, 2015 4:52 am

Shrike wrote: ....Actually on the side, altering fleet stuff so that Point Juno features a scripted phobos attack would be pretty cool. It's not really required given how outclassed the garrison is anyway, but it'd be fun to have them freak out about taking on a battleship with crappy little Centurions.

This might actually be the perfect scenario to see Aquila class cruisers! Imagine a mission to stop three Phobos Dreadnaughts with a large Ares fleet to attack Point Juno. The player will command a large squadron of Centurions and Britannias to hold the advance till a CSC and a few Aquila cruisers come in as reinforcements. Before the player can begin this missions, there should be follow up missions that make the Ares realize if Point Juno falls, then the Commonwealth Fleet will be cut off completely.

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JohnBWatson
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Tue Apr 07, 2015 6:21 am

Wolfy wrote:Stations are very very weak in this game. Capships have armor segments, shields, and internal HP. Not to mention the ability to move. Stations can only sit there and be bombarded, maybe shooting back. They only have an HP pool and some damage resistance from whatever armor type they use.

I really think that major stations should be a heck of a lot stronger - major factions wouldn't let critical infrastructure and major population centers fall so easily. (Especially if the attack is some over-gunned pest in a civilian craft)
Instead right now they just chill while you pound away at the station with a howitzer or some such.
I think the same thing, save for two things. Firstly, the scale at which stations are shown makes a proportionate level of firepower look somewhat odd(the Kobol stations are a good example of this). Secondly, the combat in the game appears to be inspired by naval and air combat, and naval and air bases largely rely on aircraft/ships for defenses. CW metropolises are space cities, and they certainly shouldn't be as vulnerable as they are, but mounting direct weaponry isn't ideal. After all, the canon seems to be that inflicting direct damage on a highly populated ship/station kills some people inside it, so the CW would likely prefer to keep the combat away from their stations if possible.

Thus, I believe that the best option is increasing guard presence at valuable stations, and making them smarter. The Metropolis in the intro screen is surrounded by ships, perhaps CW metropolises should have some circling guards as well. As a side note, large stations should probably have hangers with at least a handful of ships inside. If a Korolov base can hold a task force of Ronins, a city of millions can afford a few hanger bays.
TSB will be trialing having 'intelligent boss-level major stations' - not only will they have immense HP pools, but advanced defense systems, and increasing reinforcements. This isnt in yet, but eventually I will be trialing it. George expressed interest in this approach to stations as well, which you can see the vestiges of in the game already (much more HP on many early game stations, except the basic charon and centauri)
Sounds interesting. Large stations should indeed have quite a bit more armor. Charon Caches and the like would benefit from a spawning algorithm that puts them just off of trade routes, as they aren't really useful to pirates anywhere else, and they often spawn too close to traffic and get themselves killed. You've probably already done this, but large hostile stations should have some degree of self - healing, like friendly ones(though not at the same rate).

Gameplay/story seperation there. The phobos is far more common ingame than it is in-universe. It's still a major threat through spamming, but the Ares can't churn them out of nothing like they can when the player goes past. It's really important not to derive story stuff from gameplay unless it's backed up by an in-character source...because there's a whole bunch of limitations between what you can have in backstory, and what you need to have in the game for it to work.

In terms of carriers....the Europa is not the first carrier to be lost, although its loss was a major turning point in the recent parts of the war. I think it's the first in the current phase of the war. In addition, Point Juno was not unique....but it is now the only base that can support the carrier fleet.
Is there a source here? You've been on the forums longer than I, so maybe you've seen a link I've been unable to locate.

Also, spamming doesn't really work in space. The Pilgrim can explore entire systems far faster than everyone else because space is compressed, thus why Korolov hasn't rooted out the pirate outposts and destroyed them, and why the Ares haven't hunted down all of the carriers. Hiding is much more useful in story than in game, at present. In physically correct space, a CSC with scouts on the lookout could likely evade Phobii indefinitely.
....Actually on the side, altering fleet stuff so that Point Juno features a scripted phobos attack would be pretty cool. It's not really required given how outclassed the garrison is anyway, but it'd be fun to have them freak out about taking on a battleship with crappy little Centurions.
The Tev9 can really hurt a Phobos without the ludicrously slow speed the Centurions' guns have. I've tried it.

Then again, they freaked out about 5 Cometfalls, which would have been trivial to dispatch with decent AI.
And back in the early days they really were.
Ah, good times. Loved having one of those omnicidal lightning turrets. Now, fighting against one, not so much.

-Give them effective point defense.
Valuable CW and CH stations definitely need this. Once PD is fixed, of course.
-Allow them to target and shoot down projectiles with their main guns when there are no better targets.
I like this idea a lot. It would also give stations an ability that ships don't have, which would make the game a lot more immerse.
Stations guards aren't really a solution against the player, who can be expected to outrun and/or outfight anything that comes to kill them. But they are the logical solution to the problem of the station being unable to move. They would be less ineffective if they could evade a steady stream of fire from beyond their range, and if they pursued more aggressively once they reached the target, rather than turning around just as they get into their own range.
Nobody's planned for the player(with the exception of Domina, I suppose). That's the fun of this game, in my opinion. Showing up as a crazed fanatic who appears out of nowhere and completely changes the game for everyone in the region. I'm like a romantic comedy protagonist except with nuclear howitzers instead of whimsical dinner dates.

On a serious note, I fully agree with your ideas there. A station that has been attacked should noticeably up their defenses, both in terms of keeping their guards at the ready and requesting additional reinforcements to gate in.
On the original topic, it would make sense to see upgraded versions of freighters. Given the huge values of their cargoes (according to Korolov) and their terrible survival rates in the Outer Realm (and even in the Ungoverned Territories), a few tens of thousands of credits worth of weapons and armor seems like an excellent investment.
I agree, assuming they are as modifiable as the player's ship. If not, a few higher - tier freighters could be used in the region, or some sort of escort could be set up.

This might actually be the perfect scenario to see Aquila class cruisers! Imagine a mission to stop three Phobos Dreadnaughts with a large Ares fleet to attack Point Juno. The player will command a large squadron of Centurions and Britannias to hold the advance till a CSC and a few Aquila cruisers come in as reinforcements.
Squadron commands would have to be noticeably improved(I wrote up a means of doing that in a Drawing Board thread a few weeks ago), but that might be interesting.
Before the player can begin this missions, there should be follow up missions that make the Ares realize if Point Juno falls, then the Commonwealth Fleet will be cut off completely.
I believe that the Ares already know that.

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Shrike
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Tue Apr 07, 2015 7:01 am

JohnBWatson wrote:
Is there a source here? You've been on the forums longer than I, so maybe you've seen a link I've been unable to locate.
I think Wolfy worked out the fate of the CSC Australia for TX2 waaaay back in the day and its death got made canon at some point. I've definitely read all the stuff I said there at one point or another, from a lot of sources.....unfortunately I can't really link them. There's too many of them.

Buuuut it's still very flexible backstory because it's not as if retcons don't happen every now and then. CSC America is very likely to shake up how the fleet backstory works, so I'd imagine some changes over time.


One thing that'd be cool for NPC ships is the use of armor coatings. Blast plate with anti-ion paste could probably stand up to a little punishment before failing.

Edit: And because someone's gotta do it:

Image

Adding ketchup may help.
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sun1404
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Tue Apr 07, 2015 2:46 pm

You can get 15-20 Phoboses in a system? I really want that, just for farming them. Still, I say Ringers are strong enough already, giving them turrets would just make them excellent farming machines.
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JohnBWatson
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Tue Apr 07, 2015 6:18 pm

Shrike wrote: One thing that'd be cool for NPC ships is the use of armor coatings. Blast plate with anti-ion paste could probably stand up to a little punishment before failing.
Now that you mention it, it would be awesome for ships to be able to Use items in their inventory when it would help them.

A sample AI, in pseudocode:

Code: Select all

If there is a combat auton in inventory and unit is in combat:

Use auton.

If an armor plate is >50% damaged and there is a repair item in inventory:

Use repair item on armor plate.

If there is a beneficial armor coating in inventory:

Use on the closest uncoated segment to either the front or the back.

If there are multiple beneficial armor coatings in inventory:

Iterate through them, using the highest level coatings on the frontmost and backmost armor segments.
With that implemented, just spawn civilian ships with some of those items in their inventory, and they'll use them intelligently to become far more survivable. It also solves the problem of all those auton dealers when the only person who uses autons at present is the player, and makes for realistic loot if they get splattered without being able to use them, which would be of great benefit to immersion, given that civilian ships currently carry around absolutely nothing, save for some fuel and ore in Borers, and the Korolov crates.

FourFire
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Wed Apr 08, 2015 1:38 pm

I second that civilian ships (particularly freighters) past st. kats. should have increased levels of (nonmilitary) armors and shielding.

It is especially infuriating if you make use of a corporate ordering post, and then the paper freighter carrying your diamond field crystals or lithium boosters blows up because of a random ranx gunship or whatever.

The using of items is a really cool and useful idea, I too have missed other ships using autons; I believe that at some point, the Ranx dreadnoughts used the armor patches they spawn with, but with a delay so that it was possible to kill them quickly and loot the repair items.

For effective pastes, Matter damage skewed armors should have energy enhancements applied, and vice versa, while balanced armors should have HP boosts applied.

A simple enhancement is for guard ships to automatically dock and repair their armor after an attack, the same with CW Fleet ships around CSCs and Pt. Juno (the attrition rate is really bad)

I think an AI behaviour which disallows repercussion-less long range bombardment of guard ships is also in order, and would make the game more interesting.

PDmod by TVR fixes a lot of the problems with that class of devices, the "Escort Mode" algorithm could just be implemented by George (and really should be).

I think that freighters should actually carry goods for the value claimed by Korolov (or at least the requisite number of shipping crates).
Between the better armors and shields, usable items, and AI behavior piracy will become a more viable, and fun playstyle.
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JohnBWatson
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Wed Apr 08, 2015 4:22 pm

FourFire wrote:I second that civilian ships (particularly freighters) past st. kats. should have increased levels of (nonmilitary) armors and shielding.

It is especially infuriating if you make use of a corporate ordering post, and then the paper freighter carrying your diamond field crystals or lithium boosters blows up because of a random ranx gunship or whatever.
I think it might be best to add in a new freighter for late game Corporate stations, given that we don't really know how the Canon works for refitting ships and they're one of the few friendly factions in the Outer Realm that has the funds to back up their presence.

A possible build for it:

Code: Select all


Name: Levittown class freighter

Manufacturer: NAMI

Armament: NAMI Launcher *Omnidirectional

Ammunition: 50x Broadsword Missile

Shield: Invincible Class deflector

Armor: Blast plate x4

The using of items is a really cool and useful idea, I too have missed other ships using autons; I believe that at some point, the Ranx dreadnoughts used the armor patches they spawn with, but with a delay so that it was possible to kill them quickly and loot the repair items.
If that's true, the code's already out there, which is excellent.
A simple enhancement is for guard ships to automatically dock and repair their armor after an attack, the same with CW Fleet ships around CSCs and Pt. Juno (the attrition rate is really bad)
Agree. CSC guards really need to be smarter. I've gone into that in depth in this thread.
I think an AI behaviour which disallows repercussion-less long range bombardment of guard ships is also in order, and would make the game more interesting.
Fully agreed. I've proposed some fixes in this thread.
PDmod by TVR fixes a lot of the problems with that class of devices, the "Escort Mode" algorithm could just be implemented by George (and really should be).
George has taken inspiration from mods before. I hope he sees this one as well.

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