Suggestion & Brainstorm: Illegal Weapons

Post ideas & suggestions you have pertaining to the game here.
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Shrike
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Tue Jun 09, 2015 6:48 am

Currently there's only one illegal weapon ingame, and it's rubbish (except for abusing the broken 'NPCs can't deal with radiation' thing). Since George liked the thought of a modified mining-pod system being an illegal weapon, and since I've been making a few illegals for SM&M++, I figured I'd put up my ideas and see if anyone else has ideas:


Basic stuff to start with:

-Radiation is generally an illegal thing. The XM300 may be the only legal exception, and it's a tightly controlled military weapon (and honestly? I think it should be replaced with a straightline XM900 varient and turned into an illegal weapon). Stuff like nuclear weapons? Also illegal if they're not from an approved manufacturer.

-Black Market weapons come from two main groups of sources: 'homebrew' designed made by modifying existing weapons or mashing them together (ala the TInkers), or from organised industries that cater to groups outside of the legal system. Weapons in the former group tend to have serious trade-offs (eg. defective chamber, lower damage, etc). Latter category weapons tend to be either clones of military weapons with a few changes (IE: normal balanced weapons, just illegal. Not that common, because most people just buy the military weapons from smugglers) or specialised weapons that do...interesting.....things...to the people you hit with them.

-Having these weapons actually turn up would be cool, but that can be a thing for later.

-Because these are illegal weapons made by the most twisted minds in the universe (other than Katami), punny names are actually pretty appropriate.

-Having illegal weapons on your ship should be a red flag for the militia: if they notice you firing one or having one installed, then they'll either consider you a liability, or an outright threat (depending on the weapon). The fleet couldn't care less, as long as you're not using the crappy stuff and you're firing it at the Ares.


Weapon ideas:

These are some ideas I've had for illegal weapons that fit into the "gimmick" or "special" categories. A few are in SM&M++ test versions, but they could be neat for future versions. Practicality of these varies, but since this is an ideas thread (if people like this stuff, or come up with better stuff, I'll then Ministry it)......it's fun to get the cool ideas out.


Reworked Actinide Waste Cannon that Doesn't Suck

Give it better damage-stats (mostly the speed of fire: the current thing is slow enough that the sapiens often can't hit anything), and change it to particles rather than firing explosion graphics. That way it takes the short-range radiation weapon niche nicely.

Rad Cannon

Level: 5ish
Build quality: Professional
Spec: Area-burst howitzer, similar to the Urak Howitzer (once it's fixed in vanilla). The fragmentation effect is radioactive, but has reduced damage compared with a normal weapon of this level (alternatively, reduce the ROF to make it a bit harder to use). Designed for killing freighters and stations (not that radiation hurts stations right now), and banned because there is literally no legitimate reason for a person to own one of these weapons. Has a failsafe so the actinide still has a purpose. CanHitSource.


Illegally modified mining pod (needs a better name)


level: Depends
Build quality: Varies. Most are improvised, the (extremely rare) top level nuclear models are professional.

A set of usable devices built out of modified mining devices (once they're implemented). Instead of mining ore, they explode violently (possibly the larger ones even have nuclear warheads). The smaller ones can pass customs inspection but the larger ones will be noticed. Getting caught with a concealed nuke is likely to cause problems for the player. Illegal because of course it's illegal. These are basically Ye Olde Crate Bomb, only in a form that actually works. They probably won't have much use unless the piracy system gets overhauled, but I'm sure some people will find ways to use them.

Sarin Injectorpedo[/pun]

Level: Haven't a clue, but probably quite high (L7 or higher)
Build quality: Professional. The homebrew versions tend to kill their makers before they're built.

An overlay missile like the neuroplague pod. On impact the weapon attempts to drill through the armor/hull, and then mixes a quantity of sarin nerve agent to kill anyone inside. Having an autodoc will allow the player to survive (an injection of atropine, while not good for you, will stop the gas killing you). Has a chance of being a dud (IE: reagents are bad and the gas doesn't kill you). Can be fired from the NAMI missile launcher (and possibly some other designs, like the Burak or an illegal launcher system). Don't think I really need to say why this is illegal.....

Crater Cannon

Level: Technologically? About 1-3. In terms of damage? Quite a bit more than that.
Build quality: Homebrew. Chance of premature detonation. Requires ammunition.

Actually a really really basic improvised launcher. Fires small cargo crates packed with explosives. Proximity blast, and quite inaccurate. Illegal because it's stupidy dangerous. Also it's been built in the space-age equivalent of someone's garage and is a stationbuster weapon. That tends to annoy the police. While packing very good damage, there's a chance that the bomb will detonate earlier than its regular lifetime (use code from Lamplighter prototype, with smaller chance to fail, plus a chance to adjust the lifetime for a shot to a low value). Has CanHitSource.


Hornet Torpedo

Level: high (could have lower-level blast equivalent)
Build quality: as good as you'd expect from a modified hornet

It's a hornet with a nuke instead of the main cockpit and gun, with some basic navigational gear stolen from various autons. A heavy(ish) single-use item, on invoke you can set a target from any station you've discovered in the system (or your currently selected target) within a certain radius (we still don't know the canonical range of a hornet), and the autopilot will try to get there and set off the nuke. Can be upgraded with an auton bay to make it more survivable, but has a few advantages over the standard hornet even without upgrades. Not least of which is the fact you don't have to fly it yourself. Detonation can hurt the player. Illegal because it's not exactly a self-defense weapon.

Death Laser

Level: 5. Damage is at L6 or 7 levels, but with very low ROF.
Build Quality: Well....it's a well implemented build of something that no sane person would create.

Take a mining laser, slap on a bunch of collimators, replace the laser source with a surplus Bushido or Rasiermesser X-ray source (better yet: two of them with a bunch of optics to feed them into the same chamber!), and then overclock the hell out of it. You've now got yourself a weapon with terrible rate of fire, chamber issues (like lamplighter prototype, only less common), and a seriously powerful repeating laser blast. Illegal because it's breaking the EULA of several devices, exceeds regulatory limits on weapon power without being a registered and restricted weapon, and because it's designed to kill freighters in a single shot (whether it actually does that is another thing...). Designed by a man who calls people "Dude!".

(This is in my SM&M++ test version in an early form. It's quite fun.)

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Feel free to add ideas for more illegal weapons/devices or mechanics for stuff below. Make sure whatever you suggest has a reason to be illegal and is physically possible (or is likely to be possible in the relatively near future) in the game engine. If we can come up with some workable stuff, then it can go to Ministry and maybe become something ingame a few versions down the roadmap.
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Tue Jun 09, 2015 11:44 am

Shrike wrote:-Radiation is generally an illegal thing. The XM300 may be the only legal exception, and it's a tightly controlled military weapon (and honestly? I think it should be replaced with a straightline XM900 varient and turned into an illegal weapon). Stuff like nuclear weapons? Also illegal if they're not from an approved manufacturer.
I have (rarely) used XM300s when I wanted to gas something to death, but could not use the waste cannon for whatever reason (e.g., no waste cannon, no BM shipyard to install waste cannon). XM300s are good for killing obnoxious Dwarg Masters - you gas one, it runs away, it dies! I do not want to see XM300s removed.
Shrike wrote:Reworked Actinide Waste Cannon that Doesn't Suck
Waste cannon is meant to infect targets with poison, not smash things quickly with high DPS. (Its DPS is actually good for level 4 weapon, but player will not be able to install it early enough for that to matter.) Waste cannon can have poor DPS, but as long as it gasses radiation-vulnerable targets such as Ferian miners or Dwarg Masters, and kills them after three minutes regardless of hit points, it does the job I want it to do and I am happy. The only thing wrong with the waste cannon is outdated weapon effects and maybe inappropriate firing sound. The shots could be a bit faster too.


For weapon idea...
Succession games featured a launcher and pods which after the target is hit, it drills. After drilling, something is stolen from the target ship, and an Earthzone appears and attempts to gate out with your stolen item. (As someone who kills Salvagers on sight, I loathed that feature, and I often countered it by dropping everything, but there were a few times that was not a option.)

I think digdug had illegal early-game weapons in WE that were merely much stronger than standard versions. The idea is they were NPC-only weapons (to make cannon fodder enemies more dangerous) because by the time you could install them, they became obsolete.

Another idea: Weapon enhancer that adds radiation property to primary blast weapons. Bonus points if it recolors blast shells and their hit effects to various green effects or otherwise changes effects to something else.


EDIT: Level of illegal items should not be too high, if we want them found for sale at the Black Market. Levels 1-3 are ideal levels, level 4 is somewhat rare, level 5 is rare to the point of not appearing in some games. This does not apply to items that are truly exotic stuff or regularly used by enemies. It seems that Illegal is a poor man's version of Military, designed to block player access to stuff until mid to late game, and low level stuff is generally obsolete by then. (Waste cannon would be if it did not have radiation property.)
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Tue Jun 09, 2015 9:16 pm

PM wrote:
Shrike wrote:Reworked Actinide Waste Cannon that Doesn't Suck
Waste cannon is meant to infect targets with poison, not smash things quickly with high DPS. (Its DPS is actually good for level 4 weapon, but player will not be able to install it early enough for that to matter.) Waste cannon can have poor DPS, but as long as it gasses radiation-vulnerable targets such as Ferian miners or Dwarg Masters, and kills them after three minutes regardless of hit points, it does the job I want it to do and I am happy. The only thing wrong with the waste cannon is outdated weapon effects and maybe inappropriate firing sound. The shots could be a bit faster too.
I know that. Doesn't mean it doesn't suck though. The shots are ugly, slow, block all incoming fire (which makes no sense) and are generally terrible. The only reason it does work is because radiation is a broken mechanic that can't be countered by NPCs.
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Tue Jun 09, 2015 9:48 pm

Here are my thoughts on the actinide:

First, all major AI stations(charon stronghold, Urak Fortress, etc.) should decontaminate ships that dock at them, and irradiated ships that aren't actively on a mission should make a beeline for friendly stations that can do so. Without this, radiation weapons can't really be balanced.

Second, it needs graphical improvement. Your particle idea is fairly spot on, IMO.

Finally, it could use some manner of ammo to prevent being overpowered. Recharging with radioactive waste barrels like how the Qianlong works would be reasonable.

On a side note, anyone else think that the Sapiens should be brought back to the New Beyond, sans the new Flenser? They aren't really a threat in the UT.

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Tue Jun 09, 2015 10:42 pm

Waste cannon and radiation are not overpowered. It is primarily a villain weapon (though one Tinkers can make). By the time player can use it, there are enough enemies immune to radiation (and not). Also, friendly fire accidents is less forgiving.

Sapiens should not appear before Rigel. I think they are fine in early UT, along with Heliotropes, Death Drugs, and Marauders. They appear late enough that player can deal with, and there are not too many radiation immune targets.

It a good idea for NPCs to seek treatment - makes them look less dumb.
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Wed Jun 10, 2015 12:58 am

PM wrote:Waste cannon and radiation are not overpowered. It is primarily a villain weapon (though one Tinkers can make). By the time player can use it, there are enough enemies immune to radiation (and not). Also, friendly fire accidents is less forgiving.
It's not overpowered at present, but with a particle effect's endurance, they become much more potent. You can find them in Tau Ceti in CC through BM transports, and not much farther out in Vanilla. At that point, they're quite potent, especially considering how pirate frigates are unshielded.
Sapiens should not appear before Rigel. I think they are fine in early UT, along with Heliotropes, Death Drugs, and Marauders. They appear late enough that player can deal with, and there are not too many radiation immune targets.
I'd say Rigel to early UT is a good range. The Flenser is a bit overkill, being more effective than the missiles, so if you replace it with an omnidirectional Turbolaser or go back to the laser, it'd be fairly balanced.

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Wed Jun 10, 2015 1:27 am

Player can find waste cannon very early, but he cannot install it until he finds a Black Market shipyard (and Black Market ID), and BM shipyards do not appear until after St. K's. Very early, waste cannon is most useful for getting a big chunk of cash from selling it at the hotel encounter. It is okay if player can irradiate some pirate frigates or a good chuck of enemies in UT - that makes the waste cannon useful.

EDIT: More illegal weapon ideas.
Credit Thief: A weapon that steals money (credits) from the target on a hit.

Super Railgun: Kinetic (or other) weapon with passthrough="100", long range, and WMD. Kills stations easily, and risk for collateral damage is high. Low damage tier prevents it from being military-grade.
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Wed Jun 10, 2015 1:54 am

One more (silly) illegal weapon idea: The old 1.01 or earlier ion disruptor used by Ventari, where a hit caused device damage instead of ionization. It was the ultimate griefer weapon. Insert Trollface smiley image to rub it in, and have a nice day.
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Wed Jul 15, 2015 8:44 pm

There should also be illegal enhancements to legal weapons. You can already get +efficient , +xx% and +fast weapon variants, but I'm thinking dangerous homemade enhancements, some sort of 25th century equivalent to filing down the firing pin on a legal semiautomatic rifle to make it fire in full automatic mode. These could appear as illegal weapon enhancement items that the player applies themselves, or illegally pre-enhanced weapons could be spawned at black markets, tinkers, as loot, etc.


Possible illegal enhancements could include:
  • a "jailbreak" ROM that allows a weapon to be read as a different manufacturer's weapon, permitting it to be enhanced by manufacturer devices like the Rasiermesser enhancer and to be fitted into the Freyr and Kaiten swivel slots. Using a jailbreak ROM could have a chance to also damage or apply a -10% to -30% malus to the weapon, or maybe it should do this by default. Maybe this could be fixable with an enhancer item but block any further enhancement (since the player is not normally allowed to stack direct weapon enhancements anyway.)
  • a capacitor (like on the enhanced tritium cannon and ares ion turret) for any energy weapon, with all the downsides of current capacitors
  • a fission chamber that adds radiation effects to any blast weapon
  • an enhancement that increases the WMD rating of any matter-based weapon by 1
  • an enhancement that massively increases weapon damage or firing rate but occasionally misfires or undergoes a chamber explosion similar to a damaged weapon. This would damage the player's armor, not the weapon itself
  • fuel rod enhancement for MAG launcher and/or Mine Launcher so that they can use fuel rods as ammunition
  • something that adds a mining effect based on the weapon's level
Illegal shield enhancements could include
  • a Use-triggered overload mode similar to the Jotun deflector that raises any shield's power in exchange for massively increased power demands
  • superconducting cogenerator that permits any shield type to be instantly recharged with coils when needed
  • a pirated Solon module that adds the Solon effect to any shield
  • a pirated Invincible core that can be coupled to other shields for high regen and chance of multiple ion effects when disabled
  • automatic EMP discharge against nearby missiles. And ships. And stations. Including friendlies.
  • a Use-triggered mining pulse that rips your shields off and has a chance to apply various ion effects to both you AND surrounding ships
  • Verloren Hoop mode! KABOOOOM

I would suggest that all current ion effect weapons (anything that blinds, ionizes, applies EMP or pierces shields) be made illegal. This includes the device that adds shield piercing to installed ion weapons.

Also let tinkers install illegal weapons for an extortionate rate. Once the player finds and installs an illegal weapon for the first time via the tinkers, they could gain access to a secret "back room" at all tinkers stations where they can buy (but not sell) other illegal weapons, enhancements and devices. Include a small risk when installing illegal weapons from a tinker station that the workshop gets raided by Commonwealth police during the installation, causing all illegal cargo and weapons to get confiscated.

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Thu Jul 16, 2015 3:01 pm

Watch TV, Do Nothing wrote:I would suggest that all current ion effect weapons (anything that blinds, ionizes, applies EMP or pierces shields) be made illegal. This includes the device that adds shield piercing to installed ion weapons.
All ion weapons that can kill, except the chimeric ion blaster, already have the Military tag. Military is illegal for those without military ID.

Ion weapons that can blind or EMP cannot damage armor (except possibly as leftover damage from shields) and cannot kill on their own. EMP weapons are the perfect pacifist stun gun. Blinding weapons are only good for griefing the player and as missile defense that cannot harm NPCs aside from lowering shields. I do not see why such non-lethal ion weapons should be illegal, unless all weapons were illegal.
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Thu Jul 16, 2015 10:23 pm

What if instead we got rid of the illegal tag for devices? Illegal weapons are boring because they can't be installed until fairly late in the game. Making more of them without giving early extralegal installation won't make them interesting and making early extralegal installation would defeat the purpose of the military tag. Instead we may as well say militia members can carry anything they please including the actinide.
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Fri Jul 17, 2015 4:56 am

Atarlost wrote:What if instead we got rid of the illegal tag for devices? Illegal weapons are boring because they can't be installed until fairly late in the game. Making more of them without giving early extralegal installation won't make them interesting and making early extralegal installation would defeat the purpose of the military tag. Instead we may as well say militia members can carry anything they please including the actinide.
I think illegal weaponry is currently written as if using it is a war crime of sorts. Killing someone with radiation, after all, wouldn't be something a government that considers itself civilized wants any association with. If its the side effect of a nuclear missile, there's plausible deniability, but the waste cannon's explicitly intended to kill with radiation poisoning.

If that's the case, it could use some punishment for using it where the CW is looking, though, in exchange for more usefulness in midgame.

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Fri Jul 17, 2015 5:50 am

JohnBWatson wrote:I think illegal weaponry is currently written as if using it is a war crime of sorts.
 That’s always been my take on it.
 Rather than just doing away with the illegal tag on weapons, I would propose giving Black Market stations at least minimal dock facilities with a low level cap on what they can or can’t install — up to, say, Level 4 or 5, to make the actinide waste cannon not completely pointless without giving them the ability to install higher level milspec gear. I’m tempted to suggest making unarmored Startons unable to install milspec gear, too, but that’s another topic. Go ahead and let the Black Market stations install basic civilian stuff, too, just like their shipyards do, but have them charge exorbitantly for anything they put on the ship (legal or otherwise) unless the player has a reasonably high Sindikat rank.
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Fri Jul 17, 2015 7:27 am

JohnBWatson wrote:
Atarlost wrote:What if instead we got rid of the illegal tag for devices? Illegal weapons are boring because they can't be installed until fairly late in the game. Making more of them without giving early extralegal installation won't make them interesting and making early extralegal installation would defeat the purpose of the military tag. Instead we may as well say militia members can carry anything they please including the actinide.
I think illegal weaponry is currently written as if using it is a war crime of sorts. Killing someone with radiation, after all, wouldn't be something a government that considers itself civilized wants any association with. If its the side effect of a nuclear missile, there's plausible deniability, but the waste cannon's explicitly intended to kill with radiation poisoning.

If that's the case, it could use some punishment for using it where the CW is looking, though, in exchange for more usefulness in midgame.
The problem with that (which I've always hated and removed in my mods) is that the XM300 Reaper does exactly the same thing, and is milspec and militia-issue weaponry. It's only used by the sapiens and really should be a unique illegal missile....but it isn't.

But yeah. maybe this is the right approach: illegal weapons are those that kill in ways that outrage governments, or have other effects considered...uncivilised. Irradiating someone until they die is one example....the rather horrible effects of the neuroplague pods (including the two that are dummied-out) are another. More of the same general idea would also be appropriate.

(Nanotech weapons that slowly dissolve stuff, which are feasible in-setting but not actually in the game, would probably also be an illegal thing)
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Sat Jul 18, 2015 12:01 pm

Humans seem too primitive to weaponize nanotech in Transcendence. They have a hard time weaponizing antimatter (all of them are quest rewards) and none made any nano weapons. Such weapons would normally be in the level 13-16 range.

Low level Illegal weapons could be something that is not military grade yet too powerful to remain unrestricted. After all, Black Market tends to deal with Illegals mostly in the level 1-4 range. Low level illegals could also include pirated inferior copies of military tech, such as stealth armor with stealth="5".
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