Suggestion & Brainstorm: Illegal Weapons

Post ideas & suggestions you have pertaining to the game here.
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Atarlost
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I very strongly disagree. Item destruction is not a desirable mechanic.

Shields matter as much as they should. Make status effects more prevalent and armor becomes useless. We tried that balance and moved away from it for a reason.
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Atarlost wrote:Shields matter as much as they should. Make status effects more prevalent and armor becomes useless. We tried that balance and moved away from it for a reason.
This is the main reason why I rely on shields for my defense. (Other reasons are solar armor or just not wanting to pay for armor repairs.) If I take hits on armor, it is time to run away NOW! Enemies with killer status effects (all of them except blind) are lethal. The only way to get away with shieldless is with status immune armor, but there is not enough of that even with Corporate Command.

That said, armor is important in late-game because that nasty Ares positron cannon utterly destroys any shield the player can use.
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Atarlost
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PM wrote:
Atarlost wrote:Shields matter as much as they should. Make status effects more prevalent and armor becomes useless. We tried that balance and moved away from it for a reason.
This is the main reason why I rely on shields for my defense. (Other reasons are solar armor or just not wanting to pay for armor repairs.) If I take hits on armor, it is time to run away NOW! Enemies with killer status effects (all of them except blind) are lethal. The only way to get away with shieldless is with status immune armor, but there is not enough of that even with Corporate Command.

That said, armor is important in late-game because that nasty Ares positron cannon utterly destroys any shield the player can use.
Yes. This is good. You prefer to focus on shields and can get through the game just fine except for a few admittedly common enemies in the late game. I prefer a weaker low power consumption shields over the best armor I can get and can get through the game just fine except for a couple midgame enemies that I need to take special precautions against or run from and the final boss. Both focuses work and both have a rough patch or two where the player needs to take special measures. Or at least that was true in 1.2 and I don't think there have been any sweeping changes except structural HP which only NPCs get so far.

QoL improvements like a second, heavier solar armor type and better controls for patch spider deployment might be nice, but actually going out and systematically nerfing or buffing either shields or armor would be bad.

Well, the Manticore could use help because it can't run a low level or high efficiency shield to soak minor hits and isn't fast enough for hit and run attacks to work, but it would need its own specific fix like a moderate hpbonus to all armor or something. Boosting armor for the benefit of the Manticore would upset the balance for every other ship.
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giantcabbage
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Shrike wrote:The problem with that (which I've always hated and removed in my mods) is that the XM300 Reaper does exactly the same thing, and is milspec and militia-issue weaponry. It's only used by the sapiens and really should be a unique illegal missile....but it isn't.
I agree the XM300 should be an illegal weapon
Shrike wrote:But yeah. maybe this is the right approach: illegal weapons are those that kill in ways that outrage governments, or have other effects considered...uncivilised. Irradiating someone until they die is one example....the rather horrible effects of the neuroplague pods (including the two that are dummied-out) are another. More of the same general idea would also be appropriate.
Going with the idea that illegal weapons are those which the Commonwealth doesn’t want civilians to use - you could include (non-military) area of effect and spread weapons which can result in high levels of friendly fire. This would make illegal weapons something the player might actually want to use before they get access to military weapons. I think there are currently seven weapons which this would apply to:
  • TK10 Trident Cannon (Curators)
  • Laser Array (Abbasid)
  • Moskva 21 dual cannon
  • PK25 Morning Star cannon
  • Moskva 33 repeater (Outlaw miners, Curators, and CC warlords)
  • 800F MAG (Black market)
  • ZG24 cluster MAG (Black market)
Of course there needs to be a way to actually install these devices before St K. After that the player will probably have a military ID and access to better weapons. Either Tinkers or the Black Market seem the obvious choice (the Black Market can install specific weapon/shields in the Talk to Station Boss dialog anyway)
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The earliest station that offers dock services to install most illegals are Black Market shipyards, and they appear after St. K's. (Other stations that install illegals are in the Outer Realm - i.e., near endgame.) By then, player has military ID and can get the good stuff. It would be nice if the lesser BM stations can do so, but they only install smuggler's hold (and the rank-up rewards when offered).
Going with the idea that illegal weapons are those which the Commonwealth doesn’t want civilians to use...
That would be most if not all of them. Government (when run by statists) often wants to ban all weapons because <insert pro gun control excuse>. Aside from scatterguns, you also have howitzers and almost every missile launcher that have more range than LRS range; I have caused collateral damage before because I hit something passing by beyond LRS range that I could not see. They could ban omni or tracking weapons (and ammo) for being "too precise". Even SmartCannon was "...brought to market despite opposition..." It is easy to find a (stupid) reason to ban any weapon. Of course, Transcendence is primarily about combat, and having too many weapons made illegal, especially the more mundane or baseline weapons, for simulationist reasons is no fun for many players.

The weapon I had the most problem with at angering non-enemies is the PK25 Morning Star cannon. It causes so many hits, and the spray is wide. Almost every game where I used it ended in disaster due to aggravating something before getting blacklisted.

Illegal weapons should have something special about them.
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Another idea - the Militia could run background checks on its officers, which grow in comprehensiveness with each promotion. The higher one's BM rank, the more likely it is that they will be discovered. This would result in a choice between the Militia(Wingmen and cheap weaponry) and the Black Market(vast profit and access to illegal weaponry).

Possible formula:

Code: Select all

% chance of discovery and arrest = Militia rank * Syndikat rank * 5
This would solve the balance / immersion issue with Militia - Black Market trade routes, and serve to diversify the routes the player can take toward the endgame, increasing replayability. While I'm personally in favor of the slightly increased difficulty that would result from this, given that it's justified, a net - zero option is also possible by buffing the Black Market and Militia rewards accordingly(Also, given that the player essentially needs weaponry as good as the Militia presently offers in order to reach Colonel, the nerf on Militia weaponry could do to be partially undone regardless).

That would be most if not all of them. Government (when run by statists) often wants to ban all weapons because <insert pro gun control excuse>. Aside from scatterguns, you also have howitzers and almost every missile launcher that have more range than LRS range; I have caused collateral damage before because I hit something passing by beyond LRS range that I could not see. They could ban omni or tracking weapons (and ammo) for being "too precise". Even SmartCannon was "...brought to market despite opposition..." It is easy to find a (stupid) reason to ban any weapon. Of course, Transcendence is primarily about combat, and having too many weapons made illegal, especially the more mundane or baseline weapons, for simulationist reasons is no fun for many players.

The weapon I had the most problem with at angering non-enemies is the PK25 Morning Star cannon. It causes so many hits, and the spray is wide. Almost every game where I used it ended in disaster due to aggravating something before getting blacklisted.
While your argument is reasonable, the Commonwealth appears to be orders of magnitude more laissez-faire than most of our governments, being in essence a federation of stations many lightyears apart. Given that America allows civilians with the proper licenses to own fully operational MBTs, complete with functional cannons, I'd imagine that the Commonwealth would be willing to consider anyone disciplined enough to save up for a howitzer(broken economy aside) to be intelligent enough to use it reasonably.

With the Smartcannon as a reference, this becomes better supported. It's not a particularly devastating weapon, but it is among the best weapons available in such a low price range, and it allows a skilled pilot to punch well above his weight class, hence the worry that pirates and outlaws might be able to inflict more significant casualties in firefights.

That said, I agree with your sentiment. I'm well within the camp of 'Illegal weaponry as a war crime' theory, as it adds more options for the player and expands the pool of viable weaponry. It makes sense to have a division between weaponry only trained soldiers are trusted to field and weaponry that is too horrific to allow at all.
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JohnBWatson wrote:Another idea - the Militia could run background checks on its officers, which grow in comprehensiveness with each promotion. The higher one's BM rank, the more likely it is that they will be discovered. This would result in a choice between the Militia(Wingmen and cheap weaponry) and the Black Market(vast profit and access to illegal weaponry).
You do not need any Black Market rank to profit greatly from Black Market stations. I get most of my profit from the Black Market by selling military hardware to them; at first, stuff from Commonwealth Fortresses, then whatever I farm from enemies (esp. Ventari or Ares) or spawn from Teraton fabricator.

There are only two ways to raise XP in Black Market: Buying illegals from Black Market or smuggling missions (only accessable at rank 2). There are not enough illegals spawned by Black Market stations to reach max rank, so the only way to do so is to buy illegals from Black Market, sell them back at a loss, and buy them again. Repeat until rank goes up. The only benefits of leveling up are less outrageously expensive military items at level 4 (which are still more expensive than other places - only 125% instead of 200%, compared to less elsewhere) and stronger one-time freebies from Black Market stations (if any spawn). Basically, player needs to buy his rank from Black Market, and it is not useful enough to bother.
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I don't think there's a pressing need to make, e.g., the Trident illegal. Aside from maybe a few outrageous weapons like the dual MKIII and the PK25, I firmly believe that most illegal weapons should be standard, legal weapons which have been illegally modified- stuff like 'Turbolaser cannon (+Capacitor)' and 'MKV howitzer (+Jailbroken)'. Players should occasionally run into illegal enhancement items that let them modify their own legal weapons with dangerous illegal enhancements, which sidesteps the need to directly install illegal weapons.

Tinkers are the logical place to obtain illegal stuff before the Black Market shipyards are available, but this shouldn't be too transparent. Upon arriving at a Tinker station with an illegal weapon in the hold, the Tinkers can offer to install it. Upon sbsequent visits to Tinkers by that character, an additional dock screen option to buy & install illegal equipment (but not smuggling-related stuff) will be available. Occasional raids by Commonwealth police can make relying on the Tinkers riskier than using Black Market stations, but no Black Market ID or rank would be needed to use Tinker services.
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Making current weapons illegal, especially the ones that serve as a gateway from the omni crutch to spinal mounts, would make the game a lot narrower and less interesting.
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Yes. If the weapon is at least level 4, it may be better to give the weapon "Military" instead of "Illegal", unless using the weapon is a war crime, has something illegal about it, is too unsafe and causes too much self-destructive backlash (e.g., spreading radioactive germs), or is simply not strong enough against CW enemies after St. K's (e.g., obsolete damage types). Keep in mind that Commonwealth Fleet does not care about legal status. If it is high-powered and can kill the enemy efficiently, they would gladly use it someway, somehow if possible. The current illegal weapons is slow death (radiation) and/or unreliable (neuroplague), which does not help the military in battle when they need the enemy dead now!

In one of my mods, I have a launcher that spawns thirty shots per second but ammo drained only after ten shots. That made it overpowered at building up reputation at the Battle Arena. At first, I considered making it Illegal, until I realized that BM Shipyards appear after St. K's, and since player gets military ID then, I gave the weapon Military instead. Either way, the description mentions the weapon restricted due to shady political interests. (i.e., Corporate/Battle Arena lobbyists want the weapon banned due to easy reputation gain.) Once the player can use the weapon, Battle Arena should be done (or least at Slicer left alone, if player wants to save the BM for later use).
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Yes, the first thing to do is decide what gameplay mechanic "Illegal" weapons should serve, or if you want them at all. Then find an in-game explanation which is vaguely consistent with the rest of the story.

Currently, the "Military" tag basically means a weapon is level 6 or higher. The Mk.3 howitzer (and dual variant) are the only level 6 weapons which are not military. Although there are a couple of ammo types which violate this rule, you only need to install the launchers so that doesn't affect the gameplay much. The player can get access to Military weapons at St K. by completing one Militia mission (there is a requirement to have some minimal Korolov or Battle Arena experience, but that is pretty much guaranteed unless you just speed run to St K.) In practice the "Military" tag just stops the player from using level 6+ weapons until they reach St K.
I think armor and shields have slightly more overlap between military / non-military and the change is one level higher.

So what should illegal weapons do for the gameplay?

Just being more powerful is already covered by the Military category so there is no point duplicating it.

"Warcrime" weapons e.g. actinide and neuroplague are reasonable from a story perspective (not ideal because nukes, mass murder of innocents etc. are apparently perfectly OK). The gameplay mechanics of the two illegal weapons are different from other weapons (which is a good thing), unfortunately the mechanics don’t actually work very well at the moment.

I have assumed that:
  • Illegal weapons should be available before St K. - so need to add a way to get them installed e.g. at BM/tinkers (If you can’t install illegal weapons until you reach a BM shipyard there is little point in having them in the game)
  • Illegal weapons should be slightly better and slightly different to normal weapons at levels 1-5
  • At levels 6+ normal (i.e. military) weapons are the better choice. You might have a few novelty / warcrime weapons higher levels, but if the weapon really was better than normal then the military would be using it.
I suggested the low level area-of-effect / spread weapons because:
  • They have a different look and feel (i.e. taken as a group they are special / different to the rest)
  • Outside of the battle arena they are only used by enemy factions (and the BM for the two MAGs)
  • There are 40+ weapons in levels 1-5, so making 5 "illegal" is not really taking away all the player's choice (you should be able to install them before St K.) In one sense they would have another "choice" of whether to join the BM or not.
  • Finally it's a reasonably distinction to make in terms of story. Remember there are only four crimes in the commonwealth: smuggling the BM container (smuggling illegal drugs/weapons is not a crime as they are merely confiscated), slave trading, piracy, and destroying commonwealth stations. Using AoE weapons increases your chance of collateral damage which could, in theory, result in accidently committing two of the crimes.
From a story point of view, making the AoE / high collateral weapons "Military" would also make sense (except they all basically obsolete after St K.). However, for gameplay making them Military would limit the player's choice - allowing the player to use military weapons before St K. would change the balance of the game. Allowing the player to use Illegal weapons before St K. won’t affect balance as there is only one (or 2 with EP) at the moment.
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How about a new fission weapon class that does fission damage and caused radation contamination and radation damage also. Such as fission fire howitzer. I posted nuclear technologies for a new scenario or system mod. But fisson damage would be different than thermo and fusion fire howitzer in a few regards but maybe more powerful. After all some fission weapons can also disable ships with emp damage as well.
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giantcabbage wrote:Yes, the first thing to do is decide what gameplay mechanic "Illegal" weapons should serve, or if you want them at all. Then find an in-game explanation which is vaguely consistent with the rest of the story.
Currently there is no purpose and that's fine. There are so few they can be left in as a legacy mechanic and ignored. They're also used in Weapons Extended as a difficulty mechanic: they cannot be used sold or easily by the player so they can be randomized onto NPCs without improving loot. Mod support is enough reason to leave the mechanic in without having to make more illegal weapons or make them easier to use.
giantcabbage wrote:
  • Illegal weapons should be available before St K. - so need to add a way to get them installed e.g. at BM/tinkers (If you can’t install illegal weapons until you reach a BM shipyard there is little point in having them in the game)
  • Illegal weapons should be slightly better and slightly different to normal weapons at levels 1-5
  • At levels 6+ normal (i.e. military) weapons are the better choice. You might have a few novelty / warcrime weapons higher levels, but if the weapon really was better than normal then the military would be using it.
There's no reason to think this. Illegal is a stricter requirement than military. Fewer stations install them, they appear later, and you cannot transport illegal weapons or ammo in cargo without spending a slot on an inferior cargo hold. Military weapons and ammo you can carry and install at no expense beyond a 0.1 kilogram ID ROM. Military IDs are also available in 100% of non-EP games, where they aren't important. BM IDs are not. You get one shot at the restaurant and there is a chance it's a police sting. Both are available from independent smuggler drops, but are vanishingly rare and not a dependable source.
giantcabbage wrote:
  • There are 40+ weapons in levels 1-5, so making 5 "illegal" is not really taking away all the player's choice (you should be able to install them before St K.) In one sense they would have another "choice" of whether to join the BM or not.
When removing an entire class of weapons you certainly are taking away the player's choice. Joining the BM is not a real choice. It's a luck gate. How early does a restaurant spawn? Do you get the ID or a fine?
giantcabbage wrote:From a story point of view, making the AoE / high collateral weapons "Military" would also make sense (except they all basically obsolete after St K.). However, for gameplay making them Military would limit the player's choice - allowing the player to use military weapons before St K. would change the balance of the game. Allowing the player to use Illegal weapons before St K. won’t affect balance as there is only one (or 2 with EP) at the moment.
The spread weapons are all manufactured by legitimate companies. EI makes the laser array, NAMI makes the Trident and Morningstar, and Makayev makes the Moskva. The actual least predictable weapons are the ICX, Longreach, and tracking weapons, which are used either by friendly shipping, autons, or given to the player as part of the Eridani questline.

Allowing the player to use illegal weapons before St. K actually does mess up balance because at least very popular mod relied on illegal weapons not being useful before St. K.
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Illegal Weapons ties in with: Commonwealth Court of Justice and Codes, Blackmarket, Corporate Hierarchy, and the Commonwealth Fleet.

Lets look at it from each faction's perspective.
Commonwealth Justice system states that any user holding illegal weapons should be fined, but not captured. This means the Commonwealth wants to minimize the use of illegal weapons, but can be flexible. Normally people should be jailed for holding radioactive weaponry, but that is just me(right?).

Blackmarket wants money out its customers, so it overcharges it's illegal weapons under the pretext that illegal weapons are hard to get. This is absolutely not true and is proven by the fact that the Commonwealth doesn't even check on these obviously underground hideouts(not true).

The Corporate Hierarchy is run by the 0.1%. Rich corporate business men that specializes in the trade of military weapons that appears to have no apparent interest in illegal weapons, but is corrupt enough to take in drugs whenever possible.

The Commonwealth Fleet's motto is: "Any weapon that can kill, is viable." This means the Commonwealth Fleet has no sense of morality when it comes illegal weaponry or weapons of mass destruction.

In conclusion, illegal weapons aren't really "illegal".
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PM wrote: You do not need any Black Market rank to profit greatly from Black Market stations. I get most of my profit from the Black Market by selling military hardware to them; at first, stuff from Commonwealth Fortresses, then whatever I farm from enemies (esp. Ventari or Ares) or spawn from Teraton fabricator.

There are only two ways to raise XP in Black Market: Buying illegals from Black Market or smuggling missions (only accessable at rank 2). There are not enough illegals spawned by Black Market stations to reach max rank, so the only way to do so is to buy illegals from Black Market, sell them back at a loss, and buy them again. Repeat until rank goes up. The only benefits of leveling up are less outrageously expensive military items at level 4 (which are still more expensive than other places - only 125% instead of 200%, compared to less elsewhere) and stronger one-time freebies from Black Market stations (if any spawn). Basically, player needs to buy his rank from Black Market, and it is not useful enough to bother.
Buying illegals from Tempus Labs is profitable even without a smuggler's hold, as they can be sold to CH enclaves without any issues. Later on, a massive profit is possible by trading from BM stations and shipyards to CW metropolises. It's how I generally do things.

Atarlost: I think you may just have poor luck. Almost every ID I got was from a random smuggler in one of the first systems.

Kourtious wrote:Illegal Weapons ties in with: Commonwealth Court of Justice and Codes, Blackmarket, Corporate Hierarchy, and the Commonwealth Fleet.

Lets look at it from each faction's perspective.
Commonwealth Justice system states that any user holding illegal weapons should be fined, but not captured. This means the Commonwealth wants to minimize the use of illegal weapons, but can be flexible. Normally people should be jailed for holding radioactive weaponry, but that is just me(right?).

Blackmarket wants money out its customers, so it overcharges it's illegal weapons under the pretext that illegal weapons are hard to get. This is absolutely not true and is proven by the fact that the Commonwealth doesn't even check on these obviously underground hideouts(not true).

The Corporate Hierarchy is run by the 0.1%. Rich corporate business men that specializes in the trade of military weapons that appears to have no apparent interest in illegal weapons, but is corrupt enough to take in drugs whenever possible.

The Commonwealth Fleet's motto is: "Any weapon that can kill, is viable." This means the Commonwealth Fleet has no sense of morality when it comes illegal weaponry or weapons of mass destruction.

In conclusion, illegal weapons aren't really "illegal".
The CW justice system is, at present, just not implemented very well. I think future plans exist for more strict oversight on illegal weaponry.

The BM sells illegal weaponry because it's the Black Market. It's the sole vector for trade in anything not legal.

The CH's higher ups aren't the ones buying drugs, and actively hunt down execs affiliated with the BM. They're not some stereotypical grimdark evil corporation, they're a rather normal Chamber of Commerce - esque organization with a mutual defense agreement due to the ubiquity of violent criminal groups. The trade in drugs is carried out among their maintenance and restaurant employees.

The Fleet is in dire straits, and just has bigger problems to worry about, like fighting their genocidal enemies. As long as you're not killing innocents, you're "legal enough" to help them.
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