A more balanced means of repairing

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gunship256
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Sat Aug 08, 2015 11:30 pm

JohnBWatson wrote:In addition, is there any support for a ROM that causes any installed patch spiders to automatically uninstall when the ship takes damage, coming back out a while afterwards?
That's an interesting idea. How would that work - would the ROM create a virtual device that uninstalls patch spiders when the ship takes damage? How would it know when to bring the spiders back out - when the shields are back up, when there are no enemies around or maybe one one of the two is true?

If the ROM creates a virtual device that's installed on the ship, what happens if the player switches to another ship in PlayerShip Drones?

I'm not trying to be difficult; as a new modder, I'm trying to figure out how things work.

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Sat Aug 08, 2015 11:35 pm

That's an interesting idea. How would that work - would the ROM create a virtual device that uninstalls patch spiders when the ship takes damage? How would it know when to bring the spiders back out - when the shields are back up, when there are no enemies around or maybe one one of the two is true?
I'd imagine it would decide it was safe 60 real time seconds after the ship took damage, and it would function by changing any patch spiders installed or in cargo into another object that 'hides' when the ship is hit rather than taking damage. Anything involving shields would break depending on the playstyle.
I'm not trying to be difficult; as a new modder, I'm trying to figure out how things work.
I'm a new modder as well, actually! I've been working on a tutorial that demonstrates the basics of modding, you can see my progress here.

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Sat Aug 08, 2015 11:53 pm

JohnBWatson wrote:
That's an interesting idea. How would that work - would the ROM create a virtual device that uninstalls patch spiders when the ship takes damage? How would it know when to bring the spiders back out - when the shields are back up, when there are no enemies around or maybe one one of the two is true?
I'd imagine it would decide it was safe 60 real time seconds after the ship took damage, and it would function by changing any patch spiders installed or in cargo into another object that 'hides' when the ship is hit rather than taking damage. Anything involving shields would break depending on the playstyle.
OK, but what code would do the actual work of checking to see when the patch spiders should be installed and uninstalled? My first thought was that invoking the ROM would give the player a virtual device that does that work, but how do we keep the player from "losing" the device if he switches to a new ship?

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Sun Aug 09, 2015 11:37 am

The easy way to do spiders is to base it on the shields. If the shields are over some threshold let the spiders out. If they're under pull them in. It's really unsafe to try to use spiders without opaque shields.
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Sun Aug 09, 2015 12:55 pm

PM wrote:
Atarlost wrote:Nothing is wrong with the current system. Slower repair services, no matter how implemented, would be nothing but pointless boredom.
The one thing I dislike about the current system is while armor repair services cannot repair armor damaged by more than 75%, armor repair devices and consumables can repair armor regardless of damage. It would be nice if armor repair was consistent.
This has been an annoyance for me for a long time. I fixed it in Black Market Expansion by making the behaviour of repair items (barrels, patches, repair kits, patch spiders and patcher arms) behave equal to what stations (and Domina) do: don't repair if damaged for 75% or more.

One of the results of this is that I find myself switching armor types more often and trying out more configurations in the process (which I like).

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Sun Aug 09, 2015 3:37 pm

I rather have everything repair armor regardless of damage.

I find the 75% damage limit annoying. It makes hunting patcher arm or repair consumables top priority. It the meantime, I play more craven than usual. I prefer to change armor when I want an upgrade or a special property, not unlike how armor is treated in other games, where they are often used as a stat suit (clothes version of stat sticks).

That said, it would be nice if Transcendence sticks to one damage threshold standard regardless of armor repair method.
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Sun Aug 09, 2015 4:02 pm

Atarlost wrote:The easy way to do spiders is to base it on the shields. If the shields are over some threshold let the spiders out. If they're under pull them in. It's really unsafe to try to use spiders without opaque shields.
For most playing styles, I agree. But for someone who uses the Manticore, as I sometimes do, or who plays with a patcher arm and no shield, as I often do, this makes patch spiders unusable.

As an example of how something like this currently affects gameplay, I don't give drones in PSD6 the Novaya armor repairer. They tend to get scared and run home if they take armor damage and act as though armor can't be repaired in-flight. I haven't tried to give them armor repair devices in 1.6.1, though, so things may have changed, since the Novaya repairer installs in the shield slot now.

Most people put shields on their drones, and this is fine. The patch spider mechanic you described works beautifully in PlayerShip Drones, as the drones install the spiders when they have shields and uninstall them when their shields are down. But it also means that I _always_ put shields on my drones.

My own thinking on the algorithm would be similar to what I'd do if patch spiders had an invoke key that would install/uninstall all of them at the same time. (PM has a mod that lets us do that, but I haven't tried it yet.) I'd install them if either my shields were up or there were no red dots on the screen, and I'd uninstall them if both of the preceding checks were false.

EDIT/addition: In PSD 7, if drones can mine, it would be nice to give a drone a miner's hold, PM's Berserker device, and a patch spider so it can mine faster. But that assumes that the drone will use the patch spider even if its shields are down, since the Berserker device installs in the shield slot.

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Sun Aug 09, 2015 5:31 pm

pixelfck wrote:
PM wrote:
Atarlost wrote: This has been an annoyance for me for a long time. I fixed it in Black Market Expansion by making the behaviour of repair items (barrels, patches, repair kits, patch spiders and patcher arms) behave equal to what stations (and Domina) do: don't repair if damaged for 75% or more.

One of the results of this is that I find myself switching armor types more often and trying out more configurations in the process (which I like).

~Pixelfck
This actually sounds pretty good with one caveat the Novaya should be able to fix even critically damaged armor since it's much more likely for Manticore players to take critical damage.

Maybe the Novaya could draw (armorlevel^3)-1.5*(armorlevel^2) MW when repairing a critically damaged plate. This is enough to put a severe strain on reactors of the same level as the armor without overloading. During overload conditions the Novaya should always be the last device to shut down, since its continued operation is literally a matter of life or death.

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Sun Aug 09, 2015 6:02 pm

gunship256 wrote:
OK, but what code would do the actual work of checking to see when the patch spiders should be installed and uninstalled? My first thought was that invoking the ROM would give the player a virtual device that does that work, but how do we keep the player from "losing" the device if he switches to a new ship?
IIRC, items in the cargo hold can still call functions. I'm not sure that a virtual item would be needed. Again, I'm still new at this, so I may be wrong.

Atarlost wrote:The easy way to do spiders is to base it on the shields. If the shields are over some threshold let the spiders out. If they're under pull them in. It's really unsafe to try to use spiders without opaque shields.
That'd break it for people using Worldship plate.

This has been an annoyance for me for a long time. I fixed it in Black Market Expansion by making the behaviour of repair items (barrels, patches, repair kits, patch spiders and patcher arms) behave equal to what stations (and Domina) do: don't repair if damaged for 75% or more.

One of the results of this is that I find myself switching armor types more often and trying out more configurations in the process (which I like).

~Pixelfck
I'd been wary of doing that, but the way you put it it seems a lot more appealing.

This actually sounds pretty good with one caveat the Novaya should be able to fix even critically damaged armor since it's much more likely for Manticore players to take critical damage.

Maybe the Novaya could draw (armorlevel^3)-1.5*(armorlevel^2) MW when repairing a critically damaged plate. This is enough to put a severe strain on reactors of the same level as the armor without overloading. During overload conditions the Novaya should always be the last device to shut down, since its continued operation is literally a matter of life or death.
Just flew a Manticore up to St. Kats, and that seems pretty balanced.

On a somewhat OT note, it's a much better ship than I thought it would be. The repair mechanic works quite well.

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Sun Aug 09, 2015 6:16 pm

There is no way to automate patch spiders for people not using shields because there is no detectable measure of safety other than the presence of a shield. People using worldship plate shouldn't get to veto a solution that works for everyone else.
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Sun Aug 09, 2015 6:25 pm

Atarlost wrote:There is no way to automate patch spiders for people not using shields because there is no detectable measure of safety other than the presence of a shield. People using worldship plate shouldn't get to veto a solution that works for everyone else.
I know jack-all about Transcendence modding but there's no call to tell if there are hostiles present on radar?

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Sun Aug 09, 2015 6:39 pm

(sysFindObject gSource "s T A Y N:100 P") returns a list of all visible enemies and angry greens within LRS of gSource, and not hidden by nebula or stealth armor. Might need to filter out those with 'mine command to remove wandering green Ferian miners from the list. ('mine command makes the game treat some non-hostiles as hostile at times.)

I plan to revisit this issue for Playership Drones as I work on it.
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Sun Aug 09, 2015 7:02 pm

JohnBWatson wrote:IIRC, items in the cargo hold can still call functions. I'm not sure that a virtual item would be needed. Again, I'm still new at this, so I may be wrong.
If you mean the patch spiders in the cargo hold, I don't want to overwrite the patch spider unless I have to. I'd rather create a virtual device that checks all installed/uninstalled devices and treats all external armor repair devices like patch spiders. It'd be more compatible with other mods and would continue to work if the patch spider were ever replaced or supplemented with other devices.

I'm guessing there's a way to do this, since black market and military IDs follow the player to new ships.
JohnBWatson wrote:Just flew a Manticore up to St. Kats, and that seems pretty balanced.

On a somewhat OT note, it's a much better ship than I thought it would be. The repair mechanic works quite well.
The Manticore is a pretty good ship, but the Sapphire with the Novaya repairer is even better because it can run away and repair armor more easily. The repairer is not for sale, though, so the only way to get it is to either order it from a Corporate Trading Post or to use a mod.
Last edited by gunship256 on Sun Aug 09, 2015 7:11 pm, edited 2 times in total.

gunship256
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Sun Aug 09, 2015 7:05 pm

Atarlost wrote:People using worldship plate shouldn't get to veto a solution that works for everyone else.
I agree. It'd work better as a mod than than to make the patch spider in vanilla behave the way I described. (Unless, of course, there's a straightforward way to do it.) I apologize if I wasn't clear about what I meant.

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Sun Aug 09, 2015 7:09 pm

PM wrote:(sysFindObject gSource "s T A Y N:100 P") returns a list of all visible enemies and angry greens within LRS of gSource, and not hidden by nebula or stealth armor. Might need to filter out those with 'mine command to remove wandering green Ferian miners from the list. ('mine command makes the game treat some non-hostiles as hostile at times.)

I plan to revisit this issue for Playership Drones as I work on it.
Thanks! I'll try this and see how it works.

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