Playership speed, thrust, and turn rate

[gunship256]

It feels like ranged weapons are less OP with the Sapphire(which I'm using here) than the Wolfen. More enemies are able to keep up, and fleeing every combat isn't as much of a possibility. It's possible that if the Wolfen's speed were closer to the Sapphire's, it would be a bit more balanced.

Do you think the speed is excessive given the Wolfen's device slot limitations? A Sapphire with an enhanced Titan drive is faster than the Wolfen, and it can afford the slot to install that engine.

I do not think so. I get very annoyed with two non-weapon slot limit, and one of them is almost always taken by cargo hold upgrade. If Wolfen became slower, I would ignore it in favor of Sapphire (better versatility) or EI500 (better cargo and non-weapon capacity). Speed is the only thing going for the Wolfen.

Until 1.3, or before when rotationSpeed was decoupled from facings, Sapphire was flat out better than Wolfen (barring niche configurations) once it got megadrive or enhanced Titan.

I think it might be best for balance if playership speed fell within a lower range, and for maneuverability/turn rate to fill that niche. Of course, that's probably a bigger discussion than is meant for this thread.

Based on the observations above, do you think fast ships should trade in their speed for a higher turn rate and better thrust? Should engines also be changed and focus on increasing thurst and turn rate with only minimal increases to speed?

[Song]

Personally? No. I feel that it should be balanced using the armor system to reduce the top speed of ships using heavy armor (which is supported now), and imposing stricter armor limits on faster ships. George has made tentative noises about armor balance being the next big system to look into (using the same sort of approach that worked for weapons), so that would be a great time for looking into that as an experiment.

There's also the fact that very fast ships are 1: Hard to fly and 2: Generally less versatile than slower hybrids or traders. Generally I think it works out pretty nicely.

[JohnBWatson]

Ultimately, I think a ship's movement - based characteristics can be broken down into 4 values:

1. Turn rate - the rate at which ships turn; important in dogfights.

2. Top speed - the maximum cruising speed of ships. A ship with a faster cruising speed and longer ranged weapons will always beat a ship with lower values in these areas. Also determines ability to flee. This is a major balancing factor that severely impacts how the game can be played, and should thus not vary widely between playable ships.

3. Maneuverability - the rate at which a ship can alter its velocity. A good, solid advantage for fighters that does not unbalance the game.

4. Inertia - the inverse of the rate at which a ship can stop turning or moving when burdened with heavy cargo. Should be lowest for freighters and ships designed to bear heavy loads, but should be smaller than that for gunships carrying low amounts of cargo.

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As I envision it, top speed would be very similar across all playable ships, and drives would have minimal effect on this, giving more impact to maneuverability and inertia. Maneuverability and turn rate would be the primary advantage of combat - built gunships, with specialized ships having good turn rates but lower maneuverability, and freighters being able to consistently fly well with full cargo holds.

[Song]

That's the thing with maximum speed though. It's a major balancing thing....so really, it should be used to differentiate ships. It's just another thing that has to be balanced against other stats. Whether it's been balanced effectively right now is open for analysis......I trend towards agreeing that there's some issues to be looked at.

The range thus far in the game isn't actually that high....it's just that the ingame AI doesn't handle things as well as it should (also, yes, the game could use a few more mid-late game interceptors that can catch a wolfen).

[JohnBWatson]

That's the thing with maximum speed though. It's a major balancing thing....so really, it should be used to differentiate ships. It's just another thing that has to be balanced against other stats. Whether it's been balanced effectively right now is open for analysis......I trend towards agreeing that there's some issues to be looked at.

The range thus far in the game isn't actually that high....it's just that the ingame AI doesn't handle things as well as it should (also, yes, the game could use a few more mid-late game interceptors that can catch a wolfen).

I think max speed is powerful enough that a large difference isn't really possible to balance out without a major drawback to compensate - it completely alters the dynamic. Of course, improving the number and quality of interceptors should alleviate the issues we find here for the time being, and is a much less major change than reworking maneuverability. Fixing the AI range glitch is also important here, and I'm hoping that with a focus on AI improvements, George will be able to take care of that easily enough.

[gunship256]

The Wolfen has less flexibility than the other ships for a mid to late game setup, which is the main reason why I don't use it. The Sapphire with an enhanced Titan is going to have a higher top speed and similar maneuverability, and it can install a cargo hold and more devices and still not get loaded down as easily as the Wolfen.

The Wolfen is great for the early game. It also seems like the ideal ship for speedrunning, as its default setup lets it run away from most fights.

If its speed were lowered, it would be great for it to have an ability that other ships don't have, such as a linked-fire weapon slot or a primary slot with 90 degrees or more of swivel, in addition to its high thrust. It would have to be something that would make it worth flying, given that it doesn't have the Sapphire's device slot flexibility.

[JohnBWatson]

If its speed were lowered, it would be great for it to have an ability that other ships don't have, such as a linked-fire weapon slot or a primary slot with 90 degrees or more of swivel, in addition to its high thrust. It would have to be something that would make it worth flying, given that it doesn't have the Sapphire's device slot flexibility.

I like the idea of further differentiating the ships, and I certainly agree that the Wolfen's current major trait aside from top speed, the many weapon slots, leaves a lot to be desired.

The only things a ship can really benefit from having are an omni weapon and a WMD weapon, with the possibility of a launcher. Beyond that, the Wolfen doesn't really gain anything from being able to install more weapons. While I think that making armor weight more important(right now, there's no really good high weight armor that would make the player care about armor slot restrictions) would be sufficient to fix this, more 2 slot weapons would also be nice to have.

[gunship256]

The only things a ship can really benefit from having are an omni weapon and a WMD weapon, with the possibility of a launcher. Beyond that, the Wolfen doesn't really gain anything from being able to install more weapons. While I think that making armor weight more important(right now, there's no really good high weight armor that would make the player care about armor slot restrictions) would be sufficient to fix this, more 2 slot weapons would also be nice to have.

With the buff to missiles and the 10% minimum WMD, it becomes surprisingly workable to have one weapon + a missile launcher. I've been picking one main weapon at a time and upgrading it more quickly than before. This is really good news for the EI500 and bad news for the Wolfen.

The Wolfen is such a small ship that I'm not sure it makes sense to have it install really heavy armor. It's not just that it shouldn't be allowed to; a ship that small has its thrust seriously compromised when it becomes more massive.

One possibility would be to give a Wolfen a linked-fire weapon slot. If its speed isn't lowered, one possible compromise would be to limit the mass of all its weapons to 6 tons or less and to limit the mass of its armor to 8 ton segments. If its speed is lowered, its weapon and armor limits could be somewhat higher. That would reinforce the idea that the ship is small, keep it from compromising its thrust, and make it powerful enough to be worth using even if it were slower.

[JohnBWatson]

That's an interesting idea. It's definitely worth trying; I can't see anything wrong with it, it fits the ship's model to have two weapon hardpoints, and it sounds fun too.

[gunship256]

That's an interesting idea. It's definitely worth trying; I can't see anything wrong with it, it fits the ship's model to have two weapon hardpoints, and it sounds fun too.

What do you think of this?

Wolfen/A-class attack ship
Linked-fire weapon slot
6-ton limit for all weapons
8-ton limit for all armor
Speed reduced to 0.22c
Cargo increased to 50/150tons
Thrust increased by 25%

[PM]

I think it might be best for balance if playership speed fell within a lower range, and for maneuverability/turn rate to fill that niche.

Wolfen is also nearly at the upper end maneuverability. You cannot get much more maneuverable without skipping frames and compromising aiming ability.

Some people have difficulty controlling the Wolfen as-is. (I am not one of them.)

If Wolfen loses top speed, I want a third non-weapon slot, at least. Base of .25c means I can pass on an engine upgrade, which makes two non-weapon limit a bit more tolerable. Even then, Wolfen feels slow after Sapphire and EI500 get their engine upgrades later in the game.

[JohnBWatson]

That's an interesting idea. It's definitely worth trying; I can't see anything wrong with it, it fits the ship's model to have two weapon hardpoints, and it sounds fun too.

What do you think of this?

Wolfen/A-class attack ship
Linked-fire weapon slot
6-ton limit for all weapons
8-ton limit for all armor
Speed reduced to 0.22c
Cargo increased to 50/150tons
Thrust increased by 25%

It sounds pretty good to me.

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Some people have difficulty controlling the Wolfen as-is. (I am not one of them.)

I thought that was because of its turn rate. Giving it better ability to change directions doesn't seem like it would make it particularly hard to control.

If Wolfen loses top speed, I want a third non-weapon slot, at least. Base of .25c means I can pass on an engine upgrade, which makes two non-weapon limit a bit more tolerable. Even then, Wolfen feels slow after Sapphire and EI500 get their engine upgrades later in the game.

I think drives should be more of an improvement to maneuverability and thrust ratio than top speed.

I certainly support giving the Wolfen a gimmick beyond being fast enough to kite anything that doesn't have cardboard armor. Not sure if adding a device slot would make it too similar to the Sapphire, though.

[PM]

Wolfen has accel of 3. With 120 facings, the maximum accel that can be used without skipping frames is 4.5, and you need a very light touch to rotate for one tick only. The maximum rotation speed is 18, which is the fastest used. Wolfen has 12.

I certainly support giving the Wolfen a gimmick beyond being fast enough to kite anything that doesn't have cardboard armor. Not sure if adding a device slot would make it too similar to the Sapphire, though.

Probably would be too similar to Sapphire. I do not mind Wolfen's gimmick being speed because it is classic and popular.

I think drives should be more of an improvement to maneuverability and thrust ratio than top speed.

Drives should be able to improve top speed if desired. That said, the drive should not automatically raise much slower ships' speeds to the drive's. Currently, this is only noticeable in mods that add playable ships much better than gunships, bigger than stock Domina Sustain bubble.

[JohnBWatson]

I think the ability to outmaneuver and outturn targets, combined with the ability to dodge and present a much smaller target, are enough to make the Wolfen viable without having the gimmick of just being able to avoid 90% of fights. I use it in most of my runs, and haven't been disappointed.

[gunship256]

I think it might be best for balance if playership speed fell within a lower range, and for maneuverability/turn rate to fill that niche.

Wolfen is also nearly at the upper end maneuverability. You cannot get much more maneuverable without skipping frames and compromising aiming ability.

Some people have difficulty controlling the Wolfen as-is. (I am not one of them.)

My second problem with the Wolfen, after the main problem concerning device slot flexibility, is that it could be a better missile platform with just a little tweaking. Having four weapon slots practically begs for the ship to use a launcher, but its small default cargo hold doesn't let it carry many missiles. If the cargo hold is upgraded and stuffed full with missiles and trading goods, the Wolfen's excellent acceleration bogs down to a crawl.

If the ship could start with 50 tons and expand to 150 and have a bit more thrust, it would be a pretty effective missile ship. Allowing a full 100 ton expansion gives the player the interesting choice of forgoing smuggling and mining to have an extra 20 to 50 tons just for missiles.

The observations above are based on 1.6, so the various buffs to missiles in 1.7 may make my statements a bit dated.