Minotaur class

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Sun Feb 11, 2018 12:04 am

It is hard to gauge the true size of the Minotaur in that pic. It is long, but it is hard to tell its actual size compared to other ships.

As for name, I was expecting a rugged or blocky brutish ship like a Manticore or Aurochs. This thing basically screams fast, sleek, and elite supership. (It will not be fast with .16c though, and grabbing a megadrive would be useful.) Maybe some mythological creature that has bird-like features. Or if we keep the Roman theme, maybe "Praetorian", for being a more important ship? But that is perhaps too lofty since it is not as important as Aquila or CSC?
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skaianDestiny
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Sun Feb 11, 2018 12:41 am

I agree Minotaur doesn't seem to fit the ship. How about Pilus? From Primus Pilus, which is the senior centurion of a Roman legion. Pilus also means spear (Primus Pilus would mean "first spear"), which fits both its shape and its role in attacking stations.

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Sun Feb 11, 2018 12:54 am

skaianDestiny wrote:
Sun Feb 11, 2018 12:41 am
I agree Minotaur doesn't seem to fit the ship. How about Pilus? From Primus Pilus, which is the senior centurion of a Roman legion. Pilus also means spear (Primus Pilus would mean "first spear"), which fits both its shape and its role in attacking stations.
From the look of the ship, I was trying to remember the Latin for spear, and I see someone beat me to it. +1 to this suggestion. :)

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JohnBWatson
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Sun Feb 11, 2018 4:38 am

Or if we keep the Roman theme, maybe "Praetorian",
It'd be a good nod to that mod from way back when.

0xABCDEF wrote:
Sat Feb 10, 2018 10:27 pm
3. Install five segments of armor (in the configuration shown in the image below)
I was thinking something more like: Image

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Sun Feb 11, 2018 5:54 am

george moromisato wrote:
Fri Feb 09, 2018 5:48 pm
For special ability I'm thinking that one device slot (for omni weapons) is designated as linked-fire. Basically, if the player installs an omni weapon, it will fire along with the primary when you fire (unless disabled). What do you all think?
This is really good with certain items (e.g. 2 omni thermo cannons). If your selected weapon is fixed, it might incentivize you not to target whatever you're aiming at so the omni can auto-target something else. Other times the linked-fire weapon would be useless, and you might want to turn it off. Also, it probably requires named slots with limited device quantity.

giantcabbage wrote:
Fri Feb 09, 2018 6:59 pm
The ship could have a general omni mount - but with a mass limit so the player could have an omni star cannon, but not an omni howitzer (would probably need to review the weapon masses).
This is interesting. Good for dogfighting, which is important when you can't run from heavy gunships, but probably less useful than George's idea if it doesn't work with powerful fixed matter weapons.
giantcabbage wrote:
Fri Feb 09, 2018 6:59 pm
Or the ability to install two launchers (although this might make it too similar to the sigyn)
If one of them is secondary, this is very powerful, otherwise not very useful.

Derakon wrote:
Sat Feb 10, 2018 5:15 am
You might also consider giving it six armor plates like the Manticore. In my experience this makes a surprisingly large impact on the ship's survivability; it might help differentiate it from the other ships.
Generally, I find there's significant diminishing returns above 4, but if you aren't relying on fixed weapons, more certainly helps.
Derakon wrote:
Sat Feb 10, 2018 5:15 am
...come to think, has anyone ever considered downgrading the Wolfen to only 2 or 3 armor plates?
That actually seems like a pretty fair trade-off for the high speed, especially now that drives only add a limited amount, so other ships don't necessarily get similar or better speed in the mid to late game.

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Sun Feb 11, 2018 5:57 am

george moromisato wrote:
Fri Feb 09, 2018 5:48 pm
For special ability I'm thinking that one device slot (for omni weapons) is designated as linked-fire. Basically, if the player installs an omni weapon, it will fire along with the primary when you fire (unless disabled). What do you all think?
This is really good with certain items (e.g. 2 omni thermo cannons). If your selected weapon is fixed, it might incentivize you not to target whatever you're aiming at so the omni can auto-target something else. Other times the linked-fire weapon would be useless, and you might want to turn it off. Also, it probably requires named slots with limited device quantity.

giantcabbage wrote:
Fri Feb 09, 2018 6:59 pm
The ship could have a general omni mount - but with a mass limit so the player could have an omni star cannon, but not an omni howitzer (would probably need to review the weapon masses).
0xABCDEF wrote:
Sat Feb 10, 2018 10:27 pm
2. Replace omni-weapon linked-fire mount with a linked-fire omni-mount for most energy weapons.
These are interesting. Good for dogfighting, which is important when you can't run from heavy gunships, but probably less useful than George's idea if it doesn't work with powerful fixed matter weapons.
giantcabbage wrote:
Fri Feb 09, 2018 6:59 pm
Or the ability to install two launchers (although this might make it too similar to the sigyn)
If one of them is secondary, this is very powerful, otherwise not very useful.

Derakon wrote:
Sat Feb 10, 2018 5:15 am
You might also consider giving it six armor plates like the Manticore. In my experience this makes a surprisingly large impact on the ship's survivability; it might help differentiate it from the other ships.
Generally, I find there's diminishing returns above 4, but if you aren't relying on fixed weapons, more certainly helps.
Derakon wrote:
Sat Feb 10, 2018 5:15 am
...come to think, has anyone ever considered downgrading the Wolfen to only 2 or 3 armor plates?
That actually seems like a pretty fair trade-off for the high speed, especially now that drives only add a limited amount, so other ships don't necessarily get similar or better speed in the mid to late game.
[/quote]

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Sun Feb 11, 2018 8:24 am

NMS wrote:
Sun Feb 11, 2018 5:54 am

This is really good with certain items (e.g. 2 omni thermo cannons).
The ammo use is prohibitive here, unless you've got the nanofac(which is overpowered with one omni thermo cannon). In any case, I wouldn't consider a 100% damage increase to be excessive in exchange for a 100% increase in ammo use given that there are, in a typical game, almost exactly enough enhancers to provide a 150% damage increase to one thermo weapon with no tradeoffs. It's an extra ~40% to overall dps for a player dedicated to eking out every last point of damage. That's not to say it wouldn't be lots of fun.
Other times the linked-fire weapon would be useless, and you might want to turn it off.
I mentioned this - it may not be the case. Try switching into a capital ship in changeshipmod to see what I mean. The game automatically turns off secondary weapons if they can't lock onto a target.
giantcabbage wrote:
Fri Feb 09, 2018 6:59 pm
The ship could have a general omni mount - but with a mass limit so the player could have an omni star cannon, but not an omni howitzer (would probably need to review the weapon masses).
This is an interesting idea, and I've proposed it myself in the past, but it would require a rework of weapon masses in order to work. A power use limit might be more practical if George goes this route - it would also give some of the lesser used fixed weapons a purpose.
Generally, I find there's significant diminishing returns above 4, but if you aren't relying on fixed weapons, more certainly helps.
This is true. It's harder than most would think to distribute damage evenly when in a Phobos or RDN, especially since maneuvering is much less effective. Repair costs would also be a factor.
Derakon wrote:
Sat Feb 10, 2018 5:15 am
...come to think, has anyone ever considered downgrading the Wolfen to only 2 or 3 armor plates?
That would definitely help to set it apart from the Sapphire, though it might also make it more powerful early game, when the player is scrounging for better armor plates and trying to force enemy fire into one or two segments of blast plate. I'm in favor just for the increase in uniqueness.

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Sun Feb 11, 2018 1:22 pm

Two or three armor segments would be an advantage for the Wolfen, at least for players relying on shields instead of armor for defense, due to less mass weighing it down and less armor required to upgrade. The only time less armor would be a problem for such small ships is stacking special abilities like solar or device enhancements.

I prefer to see a new, different playership with that gimmick, perhaps something with .27c, .28c, or even .30c, but with few segments.

As for the name Minotaur, while there are names that would fit the ship better, such as that "spear" suggestion, Minotaur is not a bad name to use if no other name gets chosen.

Minotaur should have at least six segments, and if it is bigger than EI200 and about as big as an Iocrym sentinel, maybe eight segments. Although eight segments could be annoying if trying to guarantee armor as a reward (mainly due to more free money if sold) or non-random placement somewhere.
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Sun Feb 11, 2018 3:49 pm

NMS wrote:
Sun Feb 11, 2018 5:54 am
... Also, it probably requires named slots with limited device quantity.
Agreed! That's how I was thinking of implementing it.

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Sun Feb 11, 2018 4:25 pm

Now that I've done the image for the Minotaur, I agree that it looks sleek and fast. It might be better to have a max speed of .2c, but keep the maneuverability low (similar to the EI500?). It doesn't need as much maneuverability because of its omni weapon.

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Sun Feb 11, 2018 6:10 pm

PM wrote:
Sun Feb 11, 2018 1:22 pm
Two or three armor segments would be an advantage for the Wolfen, at least for players relying on shields instead of armor for defense, due to less mass weighing it down and less armor required to upgrade. The only time less armor would be a problem for such small ships is stacking special abilities like solar or device enhancements.
I have trouble with the idea that a player could get away with relying primarily on shields for defense. Shields have garbage resistances; they drop very quickly unless you're carefully dodging as many projectiles as possible. And if you're focusing on dodging, then it isn't the shield that's protecting you -- it's the dodging! Of course you can always retreat if your shields drop, let them recover, then return to the fight, but that gets extremely tedious.

Then again, as I recall, you're the kind of player that hordes absolutely every salable item and backtracks as much as needed to sell them, while abusing solar gear for infinite fuel...so maybe you don't mind a little tedium. :)

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Sun Feb 11, 2018 6:48 pm

Derakon wrote:
Sun Feb 11, 2018 6:10 pm
I have trouble with the idea that a player could get away with relying primarily on shields for defense. Shields have garbage resistances; they drop very quickly unless you're carefully dodging as many projectiles as possible. And if you're focusing on dodging, then it isn't the shield that's protecting you -- it's the dodging! Of course you can always retreat if your shields drop, let them recover, then return to the fight, but that gets extremely tedious.

Then again, as I recall, you're the kind of player that hordes absolutely every salable item and backtracks as much as needed to sell them, while abusing solar gear for infinite fuel...so maybe you don't mind a little tedium. :)
Relying on shields alone is similar to diving in Angband, and you play and fight dirty, and have an escape handy. If you do not overpower the enemy so much, you kite, you outrange enemies, you hide behind (or mostly inside) planets or the like. The Wolfen is fast and agile enough to be good at that. The AI is fairly stupid too. If you fight head-on and in the open, then yes, shields will evaporate fast.

Relying on shields is essential if you plan to use external devices. They will break if you let the enemy shoot at your armor. Relying on shields is very useful if enemies has status effects and you lack immunities. Related, this is a big weaknesses on the Raijin. Using their APD brand of weapons gives them a big swivel at the price of being external. Raijin must rely on shields if it uses such weapons. (Its starter weapon is one such weapon.)

I horde items because progressively worse prices when sold one-at-a-time literally killed my first ship. I could not make enough money to pay for fuel on my first game. Since George changed the ecomony recently, that probably does not apply anymore. Also, hording items is very useful if I plan to abuse Teraton fabricators, which happened in nearly every game (that is not Eternity Port).

Solar devices no longer add fuel. For that, I will need CSCs or the Sisters (Pilgrim's Aid), and that is mid-to-late-game.

George has finally made some progress to crush some of the exploits and/or annoyances that plagued Transcendence for years up until 1.7 or beyond.

I do not like tedium, but I like losing much, MUCH less. If I play permadeath, I do whatever it takes to maximize chances to win, even if it means exploiting boring but optimal ways to do it. Can thank Nethack and Angband for that. (Although I have no problem suiciding crippled characters if a restart is faster.) On the other hand, if I do not play with permadeath in Transcendence, I do not bother with fuel or repairs because I know resurrection will fix all of that.
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Mon Feb 12, 2018 4:10 am

PM wrote:
Sun Feb 11, 2018 1:22 pm
I prefer to see a new, different playership with that gimmick, perhaps something with .27c, .28c, or even .30c, but with few segments.
Something that fast would be able to easily avoid taking damage from anything. It'd even outrun most missiles.

Now that I've done the image for the Minotaur, I agree that it looks sleek and fast. It might be better to have a max speed of .2c, but keep the maneuverability low (similar to the EI500?). It doesn't need as much maneuverability because of its omni weapon.
That would make it more balanced, based on what we know about it so far. I'd still like to see a slower, more powerful ship be competitive, rather than serving as a 'challenge character'.

I have trouble with the idea that a player could get away with relying primarily on shields for defense. Shields have garbage resistances; they drop very quickly unless you're carefully dodging as many projectiles as possible. And if you're focusing on dodging, then it isn't the shield that's protecting you -- it's the dodging! Of course you can always retreat if your shields drop, let them recover, then return to the fight, but that gets extremely tedious.
It's not that shields are weak, it's that armor/hull are incredibly strong in recent versions. In earlier builds of the game, it was perfectly reasonable to rely on shields for defense. Armor resistances were a lot less powerful, enemies didn't hold out as long, and, since capital ships only needed to be 'finished' by a WMD weapon, some of the cooler energy weapons were actually useful. Armor segments also became irreparable after taking too much damage, so shields were financially a safer bet. Combat was a lot more fast - paced, so shields didn't have to last as long.

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Mon Feb 12, 2018 1:46 pm

@ JBW: I have no problem with base .27+c ships, especially if they have other weaknesses. No, it cannot outrun missiles since most are .40c or more, although it can probably get shot at less by avoiding enemies that shoot those missiles more easily, assuming its agility is as good as top speed.

Armor: Oh yes, not being able to repair heavily damaged armor until recently was another big one. A few times, when my solar armor could not repaired with dock services, instead of replacing it (because there were no more for sale), I held out for armor repair items (repair kits, patcher arm), relying on shields only for defense. However, until the recent armor rebalance sometime around 1.7+, armor was mostly unchanged since 1.01, although hull (for capital ships) was introduced much earlier (probably around 1.2 or 1.3). Even after the armor rebalance, it seems to make most armor lighter or heavier, and some of the go-to staples got less hp to compensate for being lighter.
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Mon Feb 12, 2018 6:16 pm

PM wrote:
Mon Feb 12, 2018 1:46 pm
@ JBW: I have no problem with base .27+c ships, especially if they have other weaknesses. No, it cannot outrun missiles since most are .40c or more, although it can probably get shot at less by avoiding enemies that shoot those missiles more easily, assuming its agility is as good as top speed.
Missile velocity is limited by the velocity of the target. A guided missile fired by a ship not moving in the right direction(common w/ Charon frigates) will often be possible for a Wolfen to outrun. Come to think of it, this is probably a glitch.

In any case, equipping a .27c ship with a 100+ range weapon means it won't ever have to deal with even the ~two rather unthreatening enemies in the game that can catch a Wolfen.

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