Particle Physics Isn't That Hard Actually

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Jay2Jay
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Wed Oct 02, 2013 12:04 am

I like how scientists did that one experiment where they proved that when you don't look at them quarks look like pixels....

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sun1404
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Wed Oct 02, 2013 1:42 am

Is that even possible? Someone, or at least, something, must be looking at it to know what it looks like.
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Wed Oct 02, 2013 9:09 am

sun1404 wrote:Is that even possible? Someone, or at least, something, must be looking at it to know what it looks like.
You be surprised at the methods scientists will contrive of and employ in order to get information:
Most of what we know about the size, shape and age of the universe is assumed, based off the colour of light we get from distant stars...
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sun1404
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Wed Oct 02, 2013 9:16 am

Gaining information from light is no different to looking.
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FourFire
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Wed Oct 02, 2013 9:23 am

Jay2Jay wrote:I like how scientists did that one experiment where they proved that when you don't look at them quarks look like pixels....
Link to the paper for this experiment?
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Jay2Jay
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Thu Oct 03, 2013 11:26 pm

FourFire wrote:
Jay2Jay wrote:I like how scientists did that one experiment where they proved that when you don't look at them quarks look like pixels....
Link to the paper for this experiment?
It was on "Into the Wormhole with Morgan Freeman" as proof that we are simply a computer simulation. They bounced some kind of something off of it instead of looking directly at it, and magnified the image like a holo-projector.

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sun1404
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Fri Oct 04, 2013 1:17 am

Okay, that is another way to discern an object's shape without looking, though I think it's not so different from looking(reading the lights bouncing from the object) and maybe even more destructive a way to observe.
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Fri Oct 04, 2013 11:37 am

sun1404 wrote:Okay, that is another way to discern an object's shape without looking, though I think it's not so different from looking(reading the lights bouncing from the object) and maybe even more destructive a way to observe.
I only think that is what they did, I am still not exactly sure how they did it though.

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Mon Jan 06, 2014 6:29 am

Vachtra wrote:Magnets don't rely on particles why should gravity.
Magnets DO rely on particles (on virtual photons). If gravity didn't rely on some particles, we would be able to get exact particle position and impulse using accurate enough equipment. It's impossible becouse of uncertainty principle. It's not the result of our low accuratly equipment, it's fundamental law of our physics. If new theory is coming, quantum mechanics and relativity theory would be approximation of new theory, like quantum mechanics become Newton mechanics if plank constant is zero.

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sun1404
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Mon Jan 06, 2014 1:52 pm

They found the carrier particle for magnetic forces finally?
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Mon Jan 06, 2014 6:24 pm

No, there is no reason to believe any particle has been found to carry magnetic forces.
If new theory is coming, quantum mechanics and relativity theory would be approximation of new theory, like quantum mechanics become Newton mechanics if plank constant is zero.
Just because something is in current use doesn't mean it will be a bridge to the next understanding in reality. It merely serves the purpose of trying to further understand what is observed. For instance the theory that the earth sits, eventually, on a turtle did not transition to the earth sitting on a bird which flies around the sun but instead was completely abandoned for something that more closely fit reality. Sure some aspects remained like the earth was still being considered as well as the planets and sun but the relation was completely revised.
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Mon Jan 06, 2014 9:27 pm

Only myth that does not reflect reality is abandoned.

Actual tested theories are tested. They are known to reflect reality to a certain degree of precision. Any theory that superseded them must reflect the same reality and therefore must give the same predictions over the domain that the older theory is tested over to within the precision to which the older theory has been tested.

Relativity and the Standard Model of particle physics have both been tested to stupendously high precision within their respective domains.
Literally is the new Figuratively

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Tue Jan 07, 2014 4:42 pm

Vachtra wrote:No, there is no reason to believe any particle has been found to carry magnetic forces.
Virtual particles can't be found. In quantum field theory some similar to particles expressions appear in equations that discribe various fields. You say that it could be just an useful mathematical model. But they can affect real particles by indirect way (Casimir effect). And in modern theories each of fundamental forces is matched to an particle. Electromagnetic - photon. Weak interaction - W and Z bosons. Strong interaction - gluons. Gravitational - hypotetic gravitons. Any field are carried by a particle. This is still an theory, but an common one.
Vachtra wrote:Just because something is in current use doesn't mean it will be a bridge to the next understanding in reality. It merely serves the purpose of trying to further understand what is observed. For instance the theory that the earth sits, eventually, on a turtle did not transition to the earth sitting on a bird which flies around the sun but instead was completely abandoned for something that more closely fit reality. Sure some aspects remained like the earth was still being considered as well as the planets and sun but the relation was completely revised.
Now we have actual science that operates exact values, and that means that older proved theories can describe physical system behavior in limited cases (we are still using Newton mechanics). But ideas can't be approximated, only numbers can. Aristotle celestial spheres theory was completely abandoned but it allowed to predict planet movement with limited accuratly. He tried to answer to 'how?' question, but he could don't say anything about celestial spheres and just to say how to calculate planets' positions. Newton and Einstein in their gravitation theories didn't ask 'how?', they just give us useful formulas. Virtual particles is an attempt to answer how fields work. Yes, now scientists again ask 'how?' and wants to make 'Theory of Everything' and we are returned to initial stage. New 'Earth on a turtle' like theory is coming...
sun1404 wrote:They found the carrier particle for magnetic forces finally?
A long ago...

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Wed Jan 08, 2014 1:38 am

Actual tested theories are tested. They are known to reflect reality to a certain degree of precision. Any theory that superseded them must reflect the same reality and therefore must give the same predictions over the domain that the older theory is tested over to within the precision to which the older theory has been tested.

Relativity and the Standard Model of particle physics have both been tested to stupendously high precision within their respective domains.
Unfortunately it can only be said that they describe what is seen to the best of their ability and as far as they can tell. Reality may well be far different than they realize and thus the previous analogy is still applicable. Just because they have thought long and hard about something doesn't mean it is reality.

To say the current theory is reality is incorrect. Reality is itself. Theories are attempts to make sense of it. I could call mesons small turtles and there is no way to disprove it since you can't really see them to get an accurate description. I could probably make a good case for it too if I though hard enough about it.
As far as precision goes it's usually more of a vague rounding of a small number. Just because it's small doesn't mean it's precise. Also just because it's precise doesn't mean it's accurate. Precision describes how closely it can be repeated. Accuracy describes how close to correct it is. If all you want to do is get close to the last flawed theory they you might not be getting closer to reality.

In the end all I really want people to do is not follow blindly just because it's in a book. As far as finding particles all they have really done is find results that suggest something has happened and that things have changed. The rest is conjecture.
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sun1404
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Wed Jan 08, 2014 2:27 am

From what you say, the magnetic force carrier 'virtual photon' is just a hypothetical particle, that scientists thinks might exist (in other words, think that it's existence might be reasonable.) That doesn't mean they've found it. For example, the Higgs boson was thought to exist for a long time, a hypothetical particle for a long time. Then some years ago they did an experiment that gives results that, combined with their prior knowledges, makes the existence of the Higgs boson far more reasonable than it's opposite. By that way, they've 'found' it. Has the virtual photon been proved to exist?
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