A little help, Please

Talk about anything not related to Transcendence.
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dvlenk6
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Could somebody click on this link and see if anything loads:
http://blackraven3d.com/ravensnest/viewtopic.php?t=7

It's WIPS on blackraven3d.com I linked to at another forum and was told that nothing would load, or only parts loaded.
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evilbob
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I get a forum page loading. I assume there should be an image in the post you made on that forum, but I get none.
OddBob
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I see this forum thread:
dvlenk on ANOTHER forum wrote:From AD&D gameplay.

Buildings are surrounded by small modelled terrains that will sit on one or two larger terrains generated with...something; either Bryce, Carrara, or Terragen.

I'm making the major buildings first. The theatre is 12,500 polys. The temple is 115,900 polys <- that's the total for both the interior and exterior.

Right now I'm making a treasury/vault that will sit at the backend of a box canyon.

The overall layout of the city is similar to, and inspired by, ancient Delphi. There isn't an oracle here, however.
but there doesn't seem to be any images or attachments (can't see your lovely artwork)

Oh, and thanks for unconsciously providing me with a link (on that forum) to the Ivy Generator: I was about to do that by hand (shudder).
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dvlenk6
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O.K., that's what they said at Renderosity too.
Could someone try this link:
http://blackraven3d.com/ravensnest/view ... hp?p=21#21

There should be a title bar w/ the image file name, a short description, file size, and # of views.
And also, could you try to reload the page(s) if there aren't any images. I had to do that once there...

I would really like to not have to upload the pictures multiple times and just be able to link to that forum. It all loads for me fine, but maybe that is because I am always logged in.

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The Ivy generator is a pretty cool app. If the ivy grow on the inside of the mesh, flip the normals. The poly counts get really high if you let it grow to long. Press 'Grow' again to make it stop.
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Burzmali
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I'm getting just the forum with Mozilla.
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dvlenk6
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Thanks.
That is what everybody gets, it seems. There must be session tracking or something else that prevents the images from loading when linking dircetly into a topic.
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Yugi
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Nah, I can't get it either on either link.
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goat not sheep
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No images...
>.<
Burzmali
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Looks good, but big papa Solno needs a bigger tail, IMHO. If you don't mind divulging, what is the poly count?
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dvlenk6
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The base models aren't very high poly:
The forum, for example, is 8,100. 3/4 of those are in the pillars (there is no good way to make a low poly fluted doric column w/ entasis). There are 8 pillars; 7 of them are instanced clones. The clones count towards total poly count, but only count a small percentage towards CPU usage for the render; and count nothing but a few vector numbers towards file size.
I used 3 render time subdivisions, which works out to about 64,000 polys at render time. That is not enough for displacement to have a realistic effect; but is enough for mesh noise (to shuffle the lines so that they aren't CG perfectly straight.)

Solno's statue is 10,800 polys.
The Temple is 116,000 (inside + outside); but there are many instances being used throughout it.

The senate is 131,000 polys (inside + outside); 11,900 for the statue.
The Character is a Millenium figure. 195,000 polys.
There are a slew of low (20 to 30 poly) buildings to use as filler.
I am using Blender's ProjectMakeHuman for the citizens (they are around 10,500 polys, but I can delete large swaths of body hidden by clothing, which I make very low poly for something like this). I'm working on those now.

The whole town will be around 2 million polys, that includes the terrains and citizens. I'm guessing 120 to 180 minutes for a render frame. Dual P4xe (3.9 GHz), maximum RAM for 32-bit app. That is at 4096x3072 size and using Photon Mapping and Final Gathering for GI and raytracing shadows, reflections, and atmospherics.
I will only load/use the parts that I need, not the whole thing, except for the overhead shot. I can cull polys for distance as required.

If I wanted to make these for real time, I would have to render pieces, save the skins. Then rework the model as very low poly and wrap the skins onto it. The textures are too large and need shrunken also.
I have no real desire to work with real time apps. outside of the architectural usages I use it for now.
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Burzmali
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I'd think about rounding some of the edges that form angles less than 90 degrees. I don't know how mush mesh noise will break those edges, but with poly counts as high as yours, another thousand or two polys to add some smoothing to select edges shouldn't matter much.

Aside from that, do you have any examples with sharper lighting? The textures look too uniform, but that might just be because of the somewhat uniform lighting used in those images.
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dvlenk6
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Hey! thanks for the feedback.
These were mesh integrity renders to make sure there were no SNAFUs in the geometries.
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Those aren't high poly counts; just moderate.
Many apps (3ds max included) can render into the billions of polygons. I was just looking at a Zbrush character that is 900 million polygons by itself (and uses 6 5000x5000 .bmp textures :shock: ). ZBrush 3 is being marketted for the 2 billion poly range. Those are the kinds of models that get used in cinematography animations.
In contrast, I get 41,000 polygons per second with EonRaptor (that's about 1700 polys real time before the illusion of smooth motion breaks down).
Those are about the two extremes of mesh resolutions commonly used.
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Beveling edges close to doubles poly counts or more, chamferring multiplies it many times. I plan on doing edge chamfers w/ a modifier as needed when doing final renders. They are only needed at a certain range (because you can't "see" them after a certain range), and it is overkill to make a model with them built into the geometry. You can't undo a model's geometry; but you can undo a modifier. It is more efficient and flexible to use a modifier as needed.
Good eye.
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No, no sharper lighting examples. The sky is overcast, sharp lighting would not look right. 'Somewhat uniform' is a good description of normal lighting in the real world. Brilliant highlights and crisp shadows are normally only present under specific circumstances (nearby or intense light source(s), low atmospherics) and are a dead give away that something is CG; just like the perfectly straight edges. Falls into the same category as the 'perfect' reflections and specularities you see in portrait renders all the time. All those are fake, pseudo-reflections and additional specularity only lighting.
My goal is to make the shaders so that they will work at least passingly well under any type of lighting; you really do need to tweak shaders to fit lighting schemes though.
- - - - -
Yeah the textures are all the same (identical and tiled), I was doing mesh integrity test renders. Most of the stone will be the same type of stone, that is the way things were built in antiquity; you used what was available from nearby sources. I have about a dozen variations of the texture (it is photographs of a large slab of 'white' marble). I can mix of blend procedurals with them to further break up the monotony.
There is some wooden structures as well. Im using this, and variations, as the base for the exterior wooden constructs: http://dvlenk6.blackraven3d.com/examples/EXTWOOD.jpg
It has an alpha channel to it (as a .psd file) so I can add paint chips, stains, etc. I can also mask in Max procedural effects through the alpha channel. Or just blend it or use a shellac material.
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It is fashionable right now that everything should be really dirty and really run down to look 'realistic. For me, excessive grunge is a dead away of CG too. I don't know that a public temple, for instance, during the height of wealthy empire should be very run down, I would personally expect it to be immaculately maintained. I could see my way to grunging up the smaller common buildings; but I don't think I want to give the impression that the public buildings are in disrepair at all; just enough variance to break up the monotony. Minor cracks, some small stains, that sort of thing.
- - - - -
I can't sell any of this. It uses 3ds max specific procedures. There is NO market for 3ds max content. Almost all content sales are designed for Poser. At the most, I would offer it as a freebie; but I don't think I'll do that either. There is NO gratitude in the 3D community. I stopped giving away models quite a while ago.
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Burzmali
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dvlenk6 wrote:Beveling edges close to doubles poly counts or more, chamferring multiplies it many times. I plan on doing edge chamfers w/ a modifier as needed when doing final renders. They are only needed at a certain range (because you can't "see" them after a certain range), and it is overkill to make a model with them built into the geometry. You can't undo a model's geometry; but you can undo a modifier. It is more efficient and flexible to use a modifier as needed.
Good eye.
Admittedly, the only models I deal with are low poly count that have real-time rendering in mind. Usually, I'd just cheat it with the texture ;) I don't really know what the tools you are using can do if you are willing to wait and let them work their magic.
dvlenk6 wrote: No, no sharper lighting examples. The sky is overcast, sharp lighting would not look right. 'Somewhat uniform' is a good description of normal lighting in the real world. Brilliant highlights and crisp shadows are normally only present under specific circumstances (nearby or intense light source(s), low atmospherics) and are a dead give away that something is CG; just like the perfectly straight edges. Falls into the same category as the 'perfect' reflections and specularities you see in portrait renders all the time. All those are fake, pseudo-reflections and additional specularity only lighting.
My goal is to make the shaders so that they will work at least passingly well under any type of lighting; you really do need to tweak shaders to fit lighting schemes though.
- - - - -
Yeah the textures are all the same (identical and tiled), I was doing mesh integrity test renders. Most of the stone will be the same type of stone, that is the way things were built in antiquity; you used what was available from nearby sources. I have about a dozen variations of the texture (it is photographs of a large slab of 'white' marble). I can mix of blend procedurals with them to further break up the monotony.
There is some wooden structures as well. Im using this, and variations, as the base for the exterior wooden constructs: http://dvlenk6.blackraven3d.com/examples/EXTWOOD.jpg
It has an alpha channel to it (as a .psd file) so I can add paint chips, stains, etc. I can also mask in Max procedural effects through the alpha channel. Or just blend it or use a shellac material.
Well, somewhat uniform is kind of a cop-out when it comes to rendered images. The buildings in your images look like they are made from matte finished marble patterned plastic in this light. Marble has two common forms, rough cut and polished. Your marble surfaces look as flat as polished, but without any reflection or glare.
dvlenk6 wrote: It is fashionable right now that everything should be really dirty and really run down to look 'realistic. For me, excessive grunge is a dead away of CG too. I don't know that a public temple, for instance, during the height of wealthy empire should be very run down, I would personally expect it to be immaculately maintained. I could see my way to grunging up the smaller common buildings; but I don't think I want to give the impression that the public buildings are in disrepair at all; just enough variance to break up the monotony. Minor cracks, some small stains, that sort of thing.
It's probably just the uniformity of the buildings that seems off. To follow your example, most public buildings would have banners hung from the tops, brazers burning incense and mats or rugs to prevent people from wearing down the marble that they walk on.
dvlenk6 wrote: I can't sell any of this. It uses 3ds max specific procedures. There is NO market for 3ds max content. Almost all content sales are designed for Poser. At the most, I would offer it as a freebie; but I don't think I'll do that either. There is NO gratitude in the 3D community. I stopped giving away models quite a while ago.
To each their own. Really high, or low enough for real-time, that's where the market is.
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dvlenk6
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Burzmali wrote:...Usually, I'd just cheat it with the texture ;) .
That is one of the reasons real time always looks so flat and blocky, the geometry just isn't there (and can't be because of the inherent limitations of the rendering environment). There is only so much that can be done with a shader. It would never hold up in a static render. Even the corporate funded professional game makers can only making it decent at best.
I'm not a big fan of real time rendering, in case you can't tell.
Burzmali wrote:Well, somewhat uniform is kind of a cop-out when it comes to rendered images.
It depends what you are trying to ahieve. If your goal is the popular 'stylized realism', maybe so.
Burzmali wrote:The buildings in your images look like they are made from matte finished marble patterned plastic in this light.
Thanks. :lol:

Overall, I thought they turned rather well for one and done quicky mesh tests. Guess I was wrong about that.
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