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Independent Multitargeting weapons discussion 
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Post Independent Multitargeting weapons discussion
First off, here is a suggestion for the laser array to make it more useful (mainly for the freighter)

It should be made level 4, as an IM (independant multitargeting) weapon, like the IM90, with price and poweruse stats similar to the omni turbo. The idea is that you can either go with this weapon, which is still of limited usefulness when only 1 target is around (thus the abbassid don't get overpowered), but is very useful when multiple targets are present, as opposed to the omni turbo which is great against a single target, but not so much against other targets.

To be a bit more exact:
9.0MW, 3.7 shots per second, same damage as regular laser, independent multitargeting, 3 tons.

..................................................................

Then just in general:

The freighter is hurt by the abundance of non-omni weapons, and the lack of weapons that target independantly like the IM90...
It would be great to see a few additional IM type weapons (beyond just the conversion of the laser array), to help boost the viability of the freighter.

--------------------------------------------------------

These are discussions from here:
http://wiki.neurohack.com/transcendence/trac/ticket/195
http://wiki.neurohack.com/transcendence/trac/ticket/196

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Sun Nov 22, 2009 9:06 pm
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The simple fix for the laser array is not to make it a multitarget omni, but to fix or remove the spread configurations. Making the array have the same configuration as the trident would make it immeasurably more useful. Bringing the firerate down to match the component parts would also help, but not as much.

As to more multitarget omnis I'm not entirely sure they're a good idea. They should be weaker than the single target omnis. Wolfy's IM laser array meets that condition (all three shots together are weaker than the omni-turbolaser against if there's any resistance, and have the same effective firerate) Same concept can be used with a triple omni particle beam at level 7 or possibly even 6 since they'd be quite a bit weaker than an omni-tev. It can't, though, be applied to a triple omni turbolaser because the omni particle is not universally three times as potent as a single omni turbolaser. Similarly a triple omni tev 9 would overshadow the omni ion blaster at 12d8 damage with the potential for a 50% enhancer compared to a mere 5d6 of a later damage type.


Sun Nov 22, 2009 9:51 pm
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Well, technically the laser array could be 'split' into two weapons (not in game, but in concept); one variant would be the IM variant, as proposed in my earlier post, and the other would be the forward-facing, lower-spread weapon that Atarlost described, still at level 3.

And yes, the IM's need to be weaker than the next level up; so that would allow for laser (not turbo), particle beam (not tev9), and the current IM90 (as there is no applicable positron weapon above that)


The idea behind the IM's is, once again, to boost the playability of the freighter, which relies heavily upon omni type weapons, and this provides a large variety of omni weapons that can be used.

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Sun Nov 22, 2009 10:15 pm
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I wouldn't mind seeing some new IM weapons to increase the variety available but I don't see it as a necessity and if done, it should be balanced. I see multi-target as a higher level ability, an advanced form of Omni and might be too powerful on lower level weapons. Reducing the individual damage will result in round offs making it otherwise useless earlier than it's single/omni counterparts. Perhaps if they required 2 slots they would be balanced but then they are almost completely useless for the freighter.

I am a freighter pilot and I personally don't like omni weapons. The freighter's real problem is that it can't maneuver and can't run. You need a powerful weapon to take down the enemies before they can swarm you. An omni without a targeting rom is just pure suicide as it will randomly shoot at the closest enemy and not the big baddie that's chewing up your armor from a distance.

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Sun Nov 22, 2009 10:28 pm
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An IM weapon on the wolfen is generally a waste of energy and space (because the wolfen can actually aim and fly and all that stuff the freighter is too big and heavy to do), except for a highly enhanced IM90 (+fast, and +150% from tons of longzhu's), thus there's not any real reason why they would need to take up extra device slots; afterall, it finds its place simply through the merits and weaknesses of its design.

There are MUCH better things to spend the energy and device slot and money on in a wolfen/sapphire than an IM weapon.

The IM systems have a reduced fire-rate. Just as the omni laser has a reduced fire-rate to the standard laser (3.7 per second vs. 6 per seoncd), the IM laser would have that same omni laser reduced firerate, and thus not be overpowered as if it had a firerate of 6. The lowered firerate would provide the nerf you're looking for.

...

I'd love to see you try to take out a buttload of hornets in the freighter with a turbolaser/xraylaser/ even the lamplighter for crying out loud before they punch through the measly Class II and heavy titanium the freighter has.
Not happening.
The freighter has 2 weapons slots. 1 can be used for the IM weapon, the other for a harder-hitting weapon to take out those heavy ships you were complaining about.

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Sun Nov 22, 2009 10:44 pm
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I really don't feel like you can solve playability problems by adding a single new weapon, or even a few new weapons. What you're doing is making those weapons a necessity, which eliminates all of the other weapons from contention. This considerably reduces the replayability of the game, because you are always hunting for the exact same config. I think Prophet has the right idea as far as balancing is concerned. Using your Hornet scenario, a ship with an IM laser array could bring down a huge swarm in just a few shots. Even in a Wolfen, it would take you quite a bit longer to pick them off with a standard laser. It's not that the Wolfen needs IM weaponry, but that IM weaponry makes clearing large groups of weak ships (which are ubiquitous early-game) faster and essentially effortless, which reduces damage taken.

For the freighter to be more viable, I think two things need to happen. First, device slots need to be reworked. Multi-slot devices were recently made possible, but the feature is nigh worthless because of low device slot limits. A laser cannon should not take up as much space as a laser array, but it does, and changing that makes the laser array useless to the freighter or the laser a no-brainer to the wolfen. Second, more non-combat or minimal-combat playstyles need to be implemented. Mining could serve to be fleshed out (and de-grindified), we could do with some Korolev missions where you are the one being escorted, etc. The Wolfen is good at combat, the freighter is good at non-combat, and the Sapphire can take advantage of parts of each playstyle.


Sun Nov 22, 2009 11:48 pm
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There are no noncombat styles in the late game though and shouldn't be. Noncombat play will make no sense at all in chapter two because you'll be the only human around. This necessary combat bias means the ships do need to be combat balanced including the freighter.


Mon Nov 23, 2009 12:01 am
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I built a prototype of the IM laser weapon, and then I ran tests. (all using the freighter equiped with stock armor, a hyperion, and Class V shields)

Test set 1, IM vs. particle beam (ship was maneauvered when using particle beam)
Corsairs (50)- IM by clear margin
Corsair II's (10)- freighter killed before conclusive results could be drawn (too many corsair II's used)
Zulus (10)- IM (particle beam killed)
Zulu II's (10)- freighter killed before conclusive results could be drawn (too many Zulu II's used)
Zulu II's (5)- IM

Test set 2, IM vs. omni turbo
Zulus (10)- IM (turbolaser nearly killed)
Zulu II's (5)- IM
Earthzones (10)- Turbolaser by very slight margin, and only because of running-away effect
Corsair II's (3)- Turbolaser by very slight margin. Possibly accountable through dice-rolls. Not nearly as conclusive as I would have hoped. (Also turbolaser's corsair's sat still, so the turbolaser was able to kill the missiles from it's target, while the IM's corsairs were moving, so the missiles were able to hit.
windslavers (3, + heavier shield)- Turbolaser

Set 1
The results demonstrate that a fast weapon is less useful on the freighter than an omni weapon for swarm-killing. (I'm thinking that the morning star is still a viable choice here however, because of its particle spread)

Set 2
The results demonstrate that the IM is superior to the omni turbolaser for lower level ships, while the omni turbolaser is superior for higher level ships.

Conclusion: the weapon is neither overpowered (where it would be a necessity), nor is it underpowered (where it would be useless). It seems to provide an interesting decision for freighter players to make; go for an expedient solution which will be good for swarm clearing in earlier game (the IM), or go for a weapon that (with a collimator and rom) will last well into mid game (the omni turbo).
Some minor tweaks here and there way be warranted, but as it stands, it is a competitive weapon, but not a necessary weapon for the freighter.

Wolfen + particle beam is WAY better however, but that's another ship, another story.

//just an FYI//: the conclusion here is merely an interpretation of the results of the tests performed.

PS: I will need to perform tests later with the IM particle beam to test it's balance.

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Mon Nov 23, 2009 12:38 am
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Atarlost wrote:
There are no noncombat styles in the late game though and shouldn't be. Noncombat play will make no sense at all in chapter two because you'll be the only human around.
I don't understand this reasoning. Are all species inherently hostile toward the unknown? That would not make for a fun game at all. No stations (eg. stores, missions, dock services, etc.), just fighting system after system of aliens that hate you. Further, I have yet to hear anything about the timeline/backstory of chapter 2. I should think news would spread very quickly, and humans would quickly rush through the Heretic gate as soon as the quarantine was broken. It wouldn't take long for a CSC or two to get through and set up a makeshift Commonwealth base of operations.

@Wolfy
Good stuff! Admittedly, I'm a touch surprised by the conclusions, but I look forward to further developments.


Mon Nov 23, 2009 1:34 am
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As long as you advanced they'd never outrun you.

You have no alien currency if currency they use. You have nothing of value to exchange with them. Anything of value you'll have to get by scrounging from wrecks.

Oh, and you've just broken out of a quarantine zone, which makes you a dangerous criminal.


Mon Nov 23, 2009 1:41 am
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Atarlost wrote:
As long as you advanced they'd never outrun you.
Not saying that they would, just that they would likely find their way into some of the earlier systems just as fast as you would.
Quote:
You have no alien currency if currency they use. You have nothing of value to exchange with them. Anything of value you'll have to get by scrounging from wrecks.

Oh, and you've just broken out of a quarantine zone, which makes you a dangerous criminal.

I don't think it's safe to assume that the Iocrym will be the weakest enemies you find in CH 2. I also don't think it's fair to assume that all pre-quarantine tech will be worthless. That aside, your argument is fair enough. I just think it's important to note that Transc would lose a LOT of atmosphere if it was a never-ending grind of combat with no friendlies in sight. Surely there are powerful factions loyal to Domina that would be willing to help you, and that would have a need for non-combat services in exchange for providing you with a foothold in alien regions.


Mon Nov 23, 2009 2:01 am
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Atarlost wrote:
There are no noncombat styles in the late game though and shouldn't be. Noncombat play will make no sense at all in chapter two because you'll be the only human around. This necessary combat bias means the ships do need to be combat balanced including the freighter.


If that really becomes the case I will not be playing part 2. :cry:

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Mon Nov 23, 2009 2:12 am
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There has to be some non-combat aspect.

Where would you get anything installed? Where do you sell all the neat alien loot?

At that point, advancing the plot would be incredibly difficult, you need something that the player can't/won't destroy to give the player information.

Personally, when I emerge from the Heretic Gate I would not want my first contact to be "Look at my nice shiny guns!" because they could probably squash me with little effort.
As powerful as the Iocrym are they will have allies and enemies, and my first look through the gate would be to try and pick a side that will keep me alive. The top of that list is all non-combat options. Diplomacy, negotiations, running errands, picking up the 'leavings' of their pets... whatever it is, to try and build a relationship that doesn't include me dieing.

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Mon Nov 23, 2009 2:26 am
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I have post-heretic reasons set up from TX2 specific factions, history, storyline, etc that allow me to continue with the quarantine-zone like play style.
However, by that point, my TX2 stuff would probably get ahead of the released post-heretic info, so it could nolonger be TX2, and would become... TAU (transcendence alternate universe) or something like that.

Playstyles and post-heretic discussion don't belong in this thread however... :P

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Mon Nov 23, 2009 2:26 am
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Prophet wrote:
There has to be some non-combat aspect.

Where would you get anything installed? Where do you sell all the neat alien loot?

At that point, advancing the plot would be incredibly difficult, you need something that the player can't/won't destroy to give the player information.

Personally, when I emerge from the Heretic Gate I would not want my first contact to be "Look at my nice shiny guns!" because they could probably squash me with little effort.
As powerful as the Iocrym are they will have allies and enemies, and my first look through the gate would be to try and pick a side that will keep me alive. The top of that list is all non-combat options. Diplomacy, negotiations, running errands, picking up the 'leavings' of their pets... whatever it is, to try and build a relationship that doesn't include me dieing.


Whatever it is it will involve you killing. If chapter one is anything to go by diplomacy means "kill who they want killed until they decide you're the enemy of their enemy", errands mean "go from point A to point B, while being attacked by random mooks", and scavenging pretty much doesn't happen.


Mon Nov 23, 2009 2:39 am
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