The great big balance alteration suggestion thread for 1.7

[PM]

Omni TeV 9 was good but not overpowered before ion/thermo power creep. Now, it is just okay. None of the particle/blast weapons received any damage boost like ion/thermo/plasma weapons. I do not want the Omni TeV 9 weakened just because the heavy IAV has an overpowered enhancement slapped on it.

I'm going to suggest something drastic for the flenser - convert it into a hitscan weapon, buff its damage, and cut its range. At present, it moves too slow for something that's supposed to be relativistic, especially considering the speeds of other matter based weapons. With hitscan status, it would be a very effective anti - gunship weapon while retaining its anti - capital effectiveness, but wouldn't be the perfect option for either and would lose the ability to kite enemies without even facing recoil.

It is "too slow" because lightspeed is slow! Range is in light-seconds (but each tick is worth two light-seconds). Hitscan is (much) faster-than-light... which is why I think various game elements are suspension-of-disbelief breakers for me. Instant area effects for nukes and hacking. Everyone everywhere knows of your criminal misdeeds as soon as you do them.

Flenser shots travel at 90% lightspeed.

[JohnBWatson]

Omni TeV 9 was good but not overpowered before ion/thermo power creep. Now, it is just okay. None of the particle/blast weapons received any damage boost like ion/thermo/plasma weapons. I do not want the Omni TeV 9 weakened just because the heavy IAV has an overpowered enhancement slapped on it.

I was probably a bit biased from using that version recently - after testing it out again I'd agree it's reasonable for its level. The enhanced version should definitely be removed from the game, though. On a similar note, I feel like the weapon optimizer ROM is a bit overpowered, given its ability to affect weapons far above what one would expect. 750 credits is a very low price to make any given weapon vastly more powerful, and it's unrealistic that more groups wouldn't make use of it as it is. I'd suggest restricting it to weapons level 5 and below, similar to its shield equivalent.

Also, the Aurochs should still get its firerateadj lessened.

It is "too slow" because lightspeed is slow! Range is in light-seconds (but each tick is worth two light-seconds). Hitscan is (much) faster-than-light... which is why I think various game elements are suspension-of-disbelief breakers for me. Instant area effects for nukes and hacking. Everyone everywhere knows of your criminal misdeeds as soon as you do them.

Certainly true, I was going off of the much softer side of the game's sci - fi. Scaling is admittedly full of things that don't really make sense. I'd say this is as good an opportunity as ever to ask this question:

Should hitscan be restricted to graviton and upward for the sake of realism(as well as keeping the player supplied with new content as the game goes on), or should it be allowed to appear for less advanced weapons that it would work well with?

[Atarlost]

I would say it's a similar dynamic. Given that both of these weapons are more expensive and power intensive, I think they should be more useful. Now, at present, omnidirectional weapons are basically the best swarmbuster weapons available, leaving little space for dogfighting weapons. I think it'd therefore be okay to nerf the OTL a bit in order to make the omnidirectional particle cannon and early - midgame forward firing swarmbusters more useful.

Some people only use omnis. Some people almost never use them. I would never take an OTL over a PK25 or an OPB over a Moskva 33. They're plenty good against hornets and wind slavers and actually hurt things that are dangerous. Non-ALT omnis tend to fall around fourth on my weapon type selection after howitzers, brooms, and short range DPS guns.

An omnidirectional bombardment weapon strikes me as far too powerful. Maybe with somewhat lower range, it could work, but outside of that it'd make the OXrayLaser even less worth getting, and it'd still leave the problem of a missileship getting most of its firepower and cost from what is intended to be its secondary weapon.

On what grounds? What could you do with an omni-flenser that you can't do with an omni-particle or regular flenser? The regular flenser is going to do more damage against stationary targets because omnis usually fire slower. The only possible use would be to snipe Sung turrets, but slave camps can be taken by drilling at no risk already.

Easier turret sniping is nice and all, but the omni flenser has appeared in WE3 and it's not that special. Flenser swivel is also available on the Freyr and it's a nice trick, but it wasn't until the Thorins were added that the swivel was a major draw.

Should hitscan be restricted to graviton and upward for the sake of realism(as well as keeping the player supplied with new content as the game goes on), or should it be allowed to appear for less advanced weapons that it would work well with?

Tachyon weapons would arguably appear as positron or antimatter weapons with backwards projecting visual effects so it could appear in those types. Gravity is light speed limited, but an awful lot of fiction used FTL gravity before we were sure of that so it might be acceptable for Transcendence's somewhat campy aesthetic. I would suggest it be exclusive to those types and maybe one of the dark energy types.

[JohnBWatson]

Some people only use omnis. Some people almost never use them. I would never take an OTL over a PK25 or an OPB over a Moskva 33. They're plenty good against hornets and wind slavers and actually hurt things that are dangerous. Non-ALT omnis tend to fall around fourth on my weapon type selection after howitzers, brooms, and short range DPS guns.

I'd say that the OTL merits a special case given that it's a weapon that can be acquired in the first few systems, enhanced to +fast similarly quickly, and can then carry the player all the way to the end of midgame against non - stations/capships before becoming obsolete.

On what grounds? What could you do with an omni-flenser that you can't do with an omni-particle or regular flenser? The regular flenser is going to do more damage against stationary targets because omnis usually fire slower. The only possible use would be to snipe Sung turrets, but slave camps can be taken by drilling at no risk already.

It could kill gunships before they even approach, kite capships even more easily than now(and allow the player to dodge while bombarding capships from outside turret range even if the AI range glitch is repaired, leaving only the slow, predictable main gun to dodge), and wipe out station guards from a great distance with minimal effort.

That reminds me: Does the AI range glitch have a ticket open?

[PM]

Should hitscan be restricted to graviton and upward for the sake of realism(as well as keeping the player supplied with new content as the game goes on), or should it be allowed to appear for less advanced weapons that it would work well with?

As long as scramble cube zap things up to 16 or 18 ls away instantly, and cyberdeck progs have more range, I see no reason why we cannot use short-ranged hitscan weapons. Laser is light, and that is hard justifying going faster than 100. Other energy types up to antimatter use some form of sub-atomic particles. Could just handwave tachyons among them, even if damage has nothing to do with antimatter. (That is what I did with Beamers in my mod.)

[Atarlost]

It could kill gunships before they even approach, kite capships even more easily than now(and allow the player to dodge while bombarding capships from outside turret range even if the AI range glitch is repaired, leaving only the slow, predictable main gun to dodge), and wipe out station guards from a great distance with minimal effort.

Only inconsequential gunships. A lot of the gunships in the ungoverned territories are chaff, but those that don't die easily to any weapon aren't going to drop so easily to an omni flenser. They take time to kill with a Freyr mounted flenser or even dual flenser, which doesn't suffer the omni rate of fire penalty.

The AI ranging error doesn't effect beam weapons out to at least 120 light seconds. It's not that easy to stay in a 10 light second range band against a moving opponent. Throttle control is very poor. Station guards can already be wiped out at great distance. Saturation bombardment works as well as omni bombardment against every enemy station except the Sung Slave Camp, which has its own simple solution. If you must save every last slave it's still possible to circle in and out of range with an omni-particle and dodge all turret fire without thought while destroying it. Gunships can be pulled just as easily with an omni-particle and killed with a weapon that does actual damage.

A better omni is always nice for the people who refuse to learn to aim, but the standard omni penalty is crushingly punitive on non-ammo weapons. For the level you get an omni-flenser you could instead get a dual flenser doing almost three times as much damage or a Mark I that decisively outranges enemies instead of barely outranging them while doing close to the same amount of damage in a higher type, or a lancer that does more damage at longer range in a higher type albeit with its own issues.

I'm not saying it should be added, but it's not going to be some ultimate weapon everyone uses if it is unless George fails to apply the 50% firerate penalty on top of level increase that omnis normally get. The game just isn't that finely balanced and wouldn't remain fun if it was.

[Song]

Guys I'm gonna wade in to remind peeps that this is about balance on existing stuff. Stay on topic please.

[Oddball]

It would be very nice if in the big balance if you would remember some of us like to actually play the El500. the items necessary are
solar armor
decent mining
turret weapons have been non existent in the last couple of upgrades
and yes we do need the drives if we want to use something other than a turret weapons

So how about remembering the lowly El500 pilot in the upcoming 1.7
I feel you have abandoned the El500 player in the 1.6 versions

[Song]

It would be very nice if in the big balance if you would remember some of us like to actually play the El500. the items necessary are
solar armor
decent mining
turret weapons have been non existent in the last couple of upgrades
and yes we do need the drives if we want to use something other than a turret weapons

So how about remembering the lowly El500 pilot in the upcoming 1.7
I feel you have abandoned the El500 player in the 1.6 versions

The EI500's entirely playable without any of those, but apart from solar armor (which is pretty well balanced in general right now. It's not supposed to be very strong armor given the massive benefits of free refuels) all of those (except drives which are also pretty much fine now) should be getting tweaked at some point. So don't worry too much!


In particular quite a few of the complaints made here (that I've moved over to Ministry in the form of this ticket ) were about omni weapons. So at least some of the mid-to-lategame omnis will hopefully get a nice boost at some point to make them competitive again.

[relanat]

My only thought is that most of the larger capital ships really need a long range bombardment weapon. The Phobos is one of two ships that scares me because it has the APA which is deadly and is very hard to kill because of the massive armor. I find I need to be very close to it to damage it which means it can kill me. This is one case where a ship doesn't need a long range weapon.

The other is the Xenophobe Worldship. Difficult to kill because of the good armor but it also has an extremely long range weapon. This is mostly an ubeatable combination and I avoid them like the plague until they are killed by Ringer stations.

The Ventaris and Deimos' can easily be outranged. Or in the case of the Ranx underranged by closing to within the arming distance of the Kiloton Cannon.

Drakes and the Kronosaurus are deadly early in the game because of my poor armor. They can missile me to death before I can close with them.

Perhaps large capital ships can be of two types. Battleships which cause massive damage at long range (before the enemy can close with them and damage them) like the Worldship, or carriers which launch lots of fighters/gunships (which cause damage by proxy while protecting the carrier).

[Atarlost]

Deimos suffers from the slow projectile range bug. If the bug is fixed it will match the range of everything except the APA, and Ares and Rasiermesser missiles.

[JohnBWatson]

(except drives which are also pretty much fine now) should be getting tweaked at some point. So don't worry too much!

I think drives' fuel usage is a bit too high relative to their usefulness, especially considering stock Wolfens can outrun virtually every ship in the game. Buffing enemy ship speed(especially for ships like the Corsair, which don't have anything else going for them) would also make drives worthwhile.

---

@relanat: I've got a ministry tag open for that. Anything large and slower than the player needs either a weapon that can hit back at range, or some escorts that can outrun him.

[Song]

Not really. Drives are useful for big ships (EI500, Hercules, etc) and ship that are running very heavily loaded (like a fully minmaxed sapphire). Top speed is important, but it's not everything.....drives also improve acceleration which is good for turn-fighting. It'd be nice to see some innovative drives (with boost functions or whatever), but the ones ingame don't strike me as being much of an issue.

[Atarlost]

Boosting NPC speeds unless they're slower than 0.15c (or 0.2c if they're late enough you can be absolutely certain any freighter has been able to get the first drive upgrade) after the boost is a bad idea. You can't just pop into a shop and get 20 scrolls of teleport. and then count on the AI's 1980's pathfinding to get stuck on walls trying to get to you. If you want to get away from a fight you have to do so in realspace. Being able to run from more things is a key advantage of the faster ships.

[JohnBWatson]

Boosting NPC speeds unless they're slower than 0.15c (or 0.2c if they're late enough you can be absolutely certain any freighter has been able to get the first drive upgrade) after the boost is a bad idea. You can't just pop into a shop and get 20 scrolls of teleport. and then count on the AI's 1980's pathfinding to get stuck on walls trying to get to you. If you want to get away from a fight you have to do so in realspace. Being able to run from more things is a key advantage of the faster ships.

Running away can be a possibility for some fights(against capital ships or heavy gunships, for example), but an unmodified yacht, gunship, or freighter should not be able to escape dedicated interceptors with paper armor and the lightest possible weaponry. It negates the one purpose those hostiles have, and makes fleeing a bit overpowered.