Is it just me...

[Ttech]

@ Amariithynar - is that why you are not on irc anymore?


Though I don't think the Ranx or Ares Dreadnoughts are underpowered to much, they have powerful weapons but they may not be the best designed to preform at high recharge rates.

[Drako Slyith]

First off, the sung are terrible at defense. In respect to their slave stations, their slave coffins block their own shots. The key to a good defense is that you can shoot them while they can't shoot you. The sung are terrible at this, because they end up killing each other as much as you.

The weakness of the ranx dn is simply the reverse of the weakness of the Uraks. Get any decent weapon and you can easily destroy any uraks.

It is not fair to compare the ranx dn with an aquila because obviously the aquila (as well as the Phobos) are created by factions with far more resources and influence.

In the end, however, the point of the game is to preserve balance in the game, not just for the player but for other factions. Exploiting an AI is not considered a lapse in balance. If it is that important to you to have a challenge while fighting the ranx, stop exploiting an AI and fly at a further range. Then tell me it needs to be stronger.

And yes, following your reasoning to the logical conclusion, a hornet is extremely easy to destroy. Because of this, they need more defense. The problem is that any shot that hits them destroys them. To solve this, they need a shield. Therefore, at least adding a class III shield will make it a much more reasonable challenge.

Also, because an ICS has only low range weapons and one long range weapon that isn't that powerful, the ICS needs to be given a very powerful long range cannon to make it harder to kill them, and not let the player sit out of range and shoot them.

And don't say the ranx is nothing like that, because it is. You are trying to increase the strength of a ship that is not meant to be that powerful. A hornet is support to be easy to destroy. Maybe the ranx dn is supposed to have a weakness. Just because a ship has a weakness doesn't mean that the ship needs to be stronger. The Death Star had a critical weakness. Following your logic, this weakness should have been fixed in the movie so it was harder to destroy. Leave the variety, and leave the inherent weaknesses that players can discover and exploit to their own enjoyment.

Not all ships are equal, and they if all ships are equal you end up with a very bland game.

[RPC]

This whole discussion was derived from the unintended consequences of having a faulty Kiloton cannon.
Here's my response:
Upgraded Ranx
A great thing about Trans is that it allows you to mod things you don't like

[Amariithynar]

First off, the sung are terrible at defense. In respect to their slave stations, their slave coffins block their own shots. The key to a good defense is that you can shoot them while they can't shoot you. The sung are terrible at this, because they end up killing each other as much as you.

The weakness of the ranx dn is simply the reverse of the weakness of the Uraks. Get any decent weapon and you can easily destroy any uraks.

It is not fair to compare the ranx dn with an aquila because obviously the aquila (as well as the Phobos) are created by factions with far more resources and influence.

In the end, however, the point of the game is to preserve balance in the game, not just for the player but for other factions. Exploiting an AI is not considered a lapse in balance. If it is that important to you to have a challenge while fighting the ranx, stop exploiting an AI and fly at a further range. Then tell me it needs to be stronger.

And yes, following your reasoning to the logical conclusion, a hornet is extremely easy to destroy. Because of this, they need more defense. The problem is that any shot that hits them destroys them. To solve this, they need a shield. Therefore, at least adding a class III shield will make it a much more reasonable challenge.

Also, because an ICS has only low range weapons and one long range weapon that isn't that powerful, the ICS needs to be given a very powerful long range cannon to make it harder to kill them, and not let the player sit out of range and shoot them.

And don't say the ranx is nothing like that, because it is. You are trying to increase the strength of a ship that is not meant to be that powerful. A hornet is support to be easy to destroy. Maybe the ranx dn is supposed to have a weakness. Just because a ship has a weakness doesn't mean that the ship needs to be stronger. The Death Star had a critical weakness. Following your logic, this weakness should have been fixed in the movie so it was harder to destroy. Leave the variety, and leave the inherent weaknesses that players can discover and exploit to their own enjoyment.

Not all ships are equal, and they if all ships are equal you end up with a very bland game.

No, no, no, and more no. You're taking the one thing I have issue with- the Ranx DN being subpar at best- and trying to apply it wholesale to -everything-. Please for the love of whatever you consider holy, stop the strawman crap.

The hornet is a cheaply made, mass-produced ship that is quick and easy to destroy if you can hit it. It isn't meant to BE much, it's just a little buzzing annoying gnat. It isn't meant to be an example of a faction's might, nor is it a capship- Even then, it is produced in swarm numbers and is supported by enough ships that it is a threat a the point at which it appears that it doesn't need better armor or shields. Even then, if armor and weaponry were to be upgraded, a shield tacked on, etc. it would end up with what would effectively be called That One Ship in the game, I have no doubt, if just because it would be truly irritating to deal with. Someone here on the forums (Datal?) even said they used a freighter and four Hornets that have been souped up for combat, and they destroy stuff. It is a system (zone) limitation and they fit in just fine.

The iocrym has long range and short range. if you can dodge its shots, congratulations, you outmaneuver it. It still is not -incapable of damaging you- at any range. It does not need fixing because there is nothing broken. A shield with a recharge rate of 7 hp/sec outrecharges the Kiloton Cannon's damage without the spray. I'm sure that none of the Iocrym weapons are that weaksauce.

Using the Death Star having a critical weakness in your argument is a non sequitur because if it didn't have such a critical weakness then the good guys would have failed and the Empire would have won- It would have been a simply victory as they facerolled over the Rebels and continued conquering the galaxy/known universe. It would have made for a dull story, which, for sales purposes, you cannot have, and thus, weaksauce weakness. If it were to have been created in reality, no such design would have ever made it off the drawing boards, let alone get put into production... sorta like the Ranx DN. (both cases assuming sufficent technological level to create said ship/planetoid)

The Ranx DN has no such compunctions; It doesn't need a critical weakness just to be balanced- In fact, it is highly flawed BECAUSE of said weakeness, making it effectively weaker than nearly any other combat-oriented ship available to the enemy, at the appropriate system (zone) level. I do not want the Ranx DN to be something like a Suoperdreadnought in power- that's what, well, Superdreadnoughts are for. i just want the glaring flaw in their -only- weapon resolved, or secondary weapons for point defense added, either of which -make sense from a logical and balance standpoint-. It doesn't need to entirely equal other ships of its class, but as it is curently, it is weak enough that it doesn't hold a candle to other ships in its class. The power fluctuation is -too- high, and that is what needs to be rectified.


RPC: Excellent mod. Thank you.

[Drako Slyith]

First off, the sung are terrible at defense. In respect to their slave stations, their slave coffins block their own shots. The key to a good defense is that you can shoot them while they can't shoot you. The sung are terrible at this, because they end up killing each other as much as you.

The weakness of the ranx dn is simply the reverse of the weakness of the Uraks. Get any decent weapon and you can easily destroy any uraks.

It is not fair to compare the ranx dn with an aquila because obviously the aquila (as well as the Phobos) are created by factions with far more resources and influence.

In the end, however, the point of the game is to preserve balance in the game, not just for the player but for other factions. Exploiting an AI is not considered a lapse in balance. If it is that important to you to have a challenge while fighting the ranx, stop exploiting an AI and fly at a further range. Then tell me it needs to be stronger.

And yes, following your reasoning to the logical conclusion, a hornet is extremely easy to destroy. Because of this, they need more defense. The problem is that any shot that hits them destroys them. To solve this, they need a shield. Therefore, at least adding a class III shield will make it a much more reasonable challenge.

Also, because an ICS has only low range weapons and one long range weapon that isn't that powerful, the ICS needs to be given a very powerful long range cannon to make it harder to kill them, and not let the player sit out of range and shoot them.

And don't say the ranx is nothing like that, because it is. You are trying to increase the strength of a ship that is not meant to be that powerful. A hornet is support to be easy to destroy. Maybe the ranx dn is supposed to have a weakness. Just because a ship has a weakness doesn't mean that the ship needs to be stronger. The Death Star had a critical weakness. Following your logic, this weakness should have been fixed in the movie so it was harder to destroy. Leave the variety, and leave the inherent weaknesses that players can discover and exploit to their own enjoyment.

Not all ships are equal, and they if all ships are equal you end up with a very bland game.

No, no, no, and more no. You're taking the one thing I have issue with- the Ranx DN being subpar at best- and trying to apply it wholesale to -everything-. Please for the love of whatever you consider holy, stop the strawman crap.

The hornet is a cheaply made, mass-produced ship that is quick and easy to destroy if you can hit it. It isn't meant to BE much, it's just a little buzzing annoying gnat. It isn't meant to be an example of a faction's might, nor is it a capship- Even then, it is produced in swarm numbers and is supported by enough ships that it is a threat a the point at which it appears that it doesn't need better armor or shields. Even then, if armor and weaponry were to be upgraded, a shield tacked on, etc. it would end up with what would effectively be called That One Ship in the game, I have no doubt, if just because it would be truly irritating to deal with. Someone here on the forums (Datal?) even said they used a freighter and four Hornets that have been souped up for combat, and they destroy stuff. It is a system (zone) limitation and they fit in just fine.

The iocrym has long range and short range. if you can dodge its shots, congratulations, you outmaneuver it. It still is not -incapable of damaging you- at any range. It does not need fixing because there is nothing broken. A shield with a recharge rate of 7 hp/sec outrecharges the Kiloton Cannon's damage without the spray. I'm sure that none of the Iocrym weapons are that weaksauce.

Using the Death Star having a critical weakness in your argument is a non sequitur because if it didn't have such a critical weakness then the good guys would have failed and the Empire would have won- It would have been a simply victory as they facerolled over the Rebels and continued conquering the galaxy/known universe. It would have made for a dull story, which, for sales purposes, you cannot have, and thus, weaksauce weakness. If it were to have been created in reality, no such design would have ever made it off the drawing boards, let alone get put into production... sorta like the Ranx DN. (both cases assuming sufficent technological level to create said ship/planetoid)

The Ranx DN has no such compunctions; It doesn't need a critical weakness just to be balanced- In fact, it is highly flawed BECAUSE of said weakeness, making it effectively weaker than nearly any other combat-oriented ship available to the enemy, at the appropriate system (zone) level. I do not want the Ranx DN to be something like a Suoperdreadnought in power- that's what, well, Superdreadnoughts are for. i just want the glaring flaw in their -only- weapon resolved, or secondary weapons for point defense added, either of which -make sense from a logical and balance standpoint-. It doesn't need to entirely equal other ships of its class, but as it is curently, it is weak enough that it doesn't hold a candle to other ships in its class. The power fluctuation is -too- high, and that is what needs to be rectified.


RPC: Excellent mod. Thank you.

First off, I was taking your own logic to the most logical conclusion. And you just confirmed my point, with the Death Star argument. It would be dull, because it would be too powerful. That is what you are trying to do to the ranx. You are trying to fix a fatal flaw which is needed so they are not fled from at all times. For the hornet, exactly! They are not meant to be extremely powerful. Nor it the Ranx DN.

For the Iocrym, check. Their main weapons are barely longer than their own ship, but again, I was using your own logic to reach a 'logical' conclusion of the Iocrym capabilities. As you say, the ICS is not that weak. Nor is the Ranx DN. If you really want to make it seem tougher, stop exploiting the AI. Virtually everything ever built had a critical weakness. For the Ranx, that is short range attack. For the Death Star, it was a low shielded reactor vent. If we took the time to fix all the weaknesses in the game, we would end up with a very dull game because the player would be steamrolled by everything.

BTW, sequitur is not a word.

[RPC]

Let's pretend I quoted the whole thread.

We should really rename this thread the "turning into Atarlost Thread".
Drako: Non sequitur
Amariithynar: Don't turn into Atarlost! We don't need 4 (Drako, me, you, and the normal one) of them on the forums, one is enough! I've already upgraded the Ranx, so there shouldn't be any more discussion (unless you want it canon, then take it up to George).

Now, for the neglected part of the OP, the Gaians use Worldship Plate. Is this intentional? They don't shoot back at the player, and when they do, they pretty much are sitting ducks. Not only that, but they also could be lured into a Ringer station. I don't know how to fix that as the AI behavior for it is probably hard-coded, but it seems like a good ticket.

[Amariithynar]

There's a difference between a character flaw, ie; something that defines something but is otherwise not a heavy consequence, and a fatal flaw, ie; something that cripples to the point of making the subject effectively useless. This is a fatal flaw, which RPC's mod has fixed. It should still remain a character mod, which i'll be toying around with and tweaking numbers to see if i can't find that balance, but it is better than the base DN.

RPC: hey now. no need to be insulting. I was replying with counterarguments to the attacks upon what i was saying. i don't mind if there's a counterargument, but I do mind when someone takes what I said and then triesrunning with it just to prove their point/make me look stupid with it, even when I never said that. ie; I hate when words are put in my mouth.

That said: Worldship Plate that is frustratingly hard to actually hit. honestly, the processors are so big and tough to do ANYTHING to that I really don't see there being much of a problem with that. The mindless AI though, should be resolved; Why would anything move towards something that shoots it? That should be fixed. Who ARE the Gaians, storywise, anyways?

[Drako Slyith]

I was replying with counterarguments to the attacks upon what i was saying. i don't mind if there's a counterargument, but I do mind when someone takes what I said and then triesrunning with it just to prove their point/make me look stupid with it, even when I never said that. ie; I hate when words are put in my mouth.

Was this barb directed at me?

If so, I wasn't putting words into your mouth. I was taking your logic to its inevitable conclusions. Only by expanding and enlarging view points can you really see the valid or invalid arguments clearly. And if taking your own logic takes proves my point, then that shows flaws in the argument. I wasn't trying to make you look stupid, I was arguing your point.

And if you consider my arguments as "attacks upon what [you were] saying", then that just proves you are placing way too much importance on this free-debate. Debates are fun, but you shouldn't take counterarguments as attacks.

[RPC]

It should still remain a character mod, which i'll be toying around with and tweaking numbers

I see you've taken the first step to modding

A really gimmicky solution to stop the Gaians from killing themselves would be installing an event handler, but I think it is something George needs to fix through the game engine.

[Amariithynar]

An event handler that basically reads (I'm not going to try to write it in transLISP) that the Gaian, when attacked by something that can damage it, will retaliate and move away, avoiding that space, perhaps?