Commonwealth v. Ares, Who Would Win?

[sun1404]

1 on 1 an optimally piloted Aquila should be able to kill an optimally piloted Phobos. They can generate tangential velocity to dodge the archcannon while still having a Katana bear on the Phobos and are faster and should therefore be able to keep between 81 and 120 light seconds away.

The games AI is not that good, but light capital ships with long range turreted weapons are just better than larger, slower ships with shorter ranged turrets and spinal guns.

Additionally, the Commonwealth probably has at least one super-heavy combat design available but not yet implemented in game. Anton Nasser's ship is proof that CW aligned corporations have the shipyard capacity. It probably didn't come from the same yards as the CSCs either since they're EI and it's Makayev.

You know, Actually I've tried that experiment before. Using PSD and it's ship spawning function, I spawned one Aquila and one Phobos. After several rounds of many scenarios, the results are as follow:

Scene 1: AI Aquila vs AI Phobos. --> The orange nightmare won by a biiiigggg chunk. The Aquila barely have enough time to get the Phobos's shield down before it ate several Archcannons full across it's front and go boom. I didn't bother many rounds for this one, I figured scratch damage vs boom is not gonna have a turn of the tides.

Scene 2: AI Aquila vs Me in the Phobos. --> Actually, I know the outcome even before the start. No strategies involved, I flew right at the Aquila spewing big yellow snot-like plasma of death, and occasionally rains of ionic doom just for the completeness, and the poor Aquila got retired in no time. YOU ARE HEREBY RELEASED FROM DUTY. I tried many rounds of this, trying this and that strategies, like trying to keep distance, trying to fly like a drunk man, trying to fly in a circle, but if I don't suicide, I wouldn't lose.

Scene 3: Me in Aquila vs AI Phobos. --> Well, according to your opinion, I'm pretty embarrassed on this, but I only managed to kill the Phobos like one time from five or so. It's much harder to evade the Archcannon than you might think, and even more so in a big slow cruiser. And the Aquila's weaponries only cover the side they're on and straight front, so I can't get all the weapons firing at once except when I'm EXACTLY south or north of the Phobos, and straightly facing it. That doesn't leave much chance for dodging. Most of the time I still get pwned by the Phobes even when trying the safe method, flying far and trying to dodge as much as I can. The Aquila simply can't turn and accelerate fast enough.

I'd like to try an Aquila - Phobos fight between two players, but that's impossible. Anyway, the results are pretty much against the Aquila. Even if it's slightly faster, and got more range, it still largely lose to the Phobos.

Also, I've tried a fight against the ICS with the big ships too. Turns out all of them except the CSC can take out the Command Ship. With much less effort than that needed for killing a Phobos. If I'm piloting them, that is. They tend to ram the ICS when left on AI, and gets incinerated by the Avalanche. I've seen a Phobos getting disintegrated as well.

[RPC]

Scene 3: Me in Aquila vs AI Phobos.

The cheap way would be to drift south while being ~90 ls away from the Phobos and bashing it to death with all four starcannons

[robotarozum]

Scene 3: Me in Aquila vs AI Phobos.

The cheap way would be to drift south while being ~90 ls away from the Phobos and bashing it to death with all four starcannons

I haven't tried it, but I feel like it wouldn't work for these reasons:

1. The Aquila and Phobos have the same top speed (.16c). If the Aquila has to even slightly change perpendicular position to avoid archcannon shots (which outrange the Katana), it necessarily has to let the Phobos catch up (however slightly). Certainly once the Phobos closes to lightning turret range it's over.

2. To my eyes, the Aquila is wider than the Phobos in a chase scenario: I estimate 116 to 98 pixels. This makes it easier for the Phobos to line up the Aquila, not vice versa.

3. The launcher is a wild card, especially if it can be used to push the Phobos back, but the limited nature of its ammunition seems catastrophic in long term engagements like these.

4. And in the context of a pitched battle, there's no reason for the Phobos to chase the Aquila in the first place. Rather, it would wade through any Fleet forces that did not or could not flee and surely annihilate them. If I were the Ares commander, I think I would send one Tundra and one Chasm (each with max speed .20c) after any fleeing Aquila. In my experience even homing missiles don't work when fired 180º from the right direction. Thus the Aquila can't flee and fight, and facing those two ships would prove disastrous as well - checkmate. Compare this to sending a squadron of Centurion Xs against a Phobos... a fine recipe for Centurion soup, but not Fleet victory.

Lastly, I ran TransData to see what it thought. I used the /shiptable /balance switch to output its evaluation of combat power for each ship class:

These values are really interesting, but surely that CSC value must be the CSC Terra? It's hard to imagine how 4 omni TeV 9s could stack up with even 2 Ares lightning turrets, let alone the archcannon.

I also don't see how the Britannia and Centurion X can have the same att values: same max speed and maneuverability, each have a Katana, then the Britannia has an NM900 pod.

Economics is also an interesting point I hadn't considered. We know the Commonwealth has a variety of stations (generic, agricultural, medical, mining) that posit a broad economic base, but it's plausible the visually indistinguishable Ares Outposts would have similar diversity. In any event, my analysis only favors the Ares if they can match the Commonwealth ship for ship. If they are at a numeric disadvantage, things become more interesting for sure.

[Aury]

The Ares use cloned soldiers/pilots/crew - the Phobos is common enough that they are not named, and the game is coded to allow an infinite stream of them to be produced. At least until the number of wrecks causes the system to exceed the maximum active objects threshold and prevent the spawning of new ships. Thus a numeric advantage for the Ares can be assumed simply from existing lore and game code. (Exiting lore being dialogue within the game already).

In Lore (The in-dev, in-flux stuff George mentioned) it is generally accepted that the Ares have a significant numeric advantage. The Stars Beyond delves into the Ares war, and illustrates the various factions within the CW Fleet and what they are trying to do in response to the Ares.

[sun1404]

IF the Ares has both technological advantage (No debating here I think. Even the Lamplighter can't match the Archcannon in raw damage, especially for the CW and Ares ships who doesn't have resistances to both plasma and antimatter. And it was just finished when the player's about to break QZ.) and numerical advantage, then I can't see anyway for the Fleet to win, except if the Ares home world gets a supernova or the Ancient Races decide they hate red and orange or something like that happen...

[Aury]

Theres more I'd like to say on the subject regarding official lore, but its just not quite finalized enough. However, I can paint a general picture:

The Ares managed to use the last lull in the war to advance their technology and build up their fleet, while the CW was crippled by red tape and lowered support. When the Ares started attacking again in force the CW fleet suffered massive casualties. The CW response however has been a multi-headed one. Where the heads attack each other. Effectively two (possibly more) factions of the fleet's admiralty are vying for R&D & production funds for completely different types of projects (Such as the Britannia's development, or lamplight, both from Decker's camp), meanwhile the citizens of the CW back in the New Beyond and Near Stars are calling more and more in favor for a complete withdraw from the Outer Realm.

The picture that the extended universe (kinda hard to define, but basically all the official canon that is created for mods that aren't D&O centric - such as TSB) paints of the CW fleet is more extensive and includes a larger variety of ship classes, both in service and experimental. In reality, the war is a lot less lopsided looking when including these ships in the mix (including a missile ship, a monitor, and an EI plasma-cannon equipped heavy gunship, as well as some more spoilery things that wont be revealed yet), but it is still stacked in the favor of the Ares. Its just not a cakewalk for them as it would appear to be now.

[Atarlost]

Also note that the in lore Ares build rates are not as high as portrayed in game any more than physical projectiles stop existing after 40-80s seconds.

Pacifica's Gunsan complex is many times larger than a dozen Ares shipyards and it's not unique. Gunsan, if you haven't seen it, is about the size of St. Kat's Arcology and scaling is not linear. It's the largest PDC shipyard, not the largest Corporate Hierarchy or Commonwealth shipyard. There's at least one larger shipyard complex, probably the EI yard in the Near Stars that built the CSCs.

Makayev and NAMI also seem to have large yards as seen by the prevalence of Antares and Scarab class freighters. Makayev has apparently recently rolled out a Phobos peer. They don't seem to be in Fleet hands yet, but at least one CH troubleshooter is commanding one as of CC. The Commonwealth is the most likely customer for a battleship that size.

[sun1404]

It's not very unreasonable in game's term that we only pass systems where the Fleet is in need of assistance. It'd be rather pointless to meet a whole lot of CSCs that say 'We don't need any privateers screwing up right now' to you. And making all the CSCs we ever meet in need of help is much easier and more efficient. Yet, It'd be good to see at least one or two systems where the CSC is at equal, or even at an advantage to the Ares.

[TVR]

* CSC India, Pacifica, America, Asia, Atlantica, Terra, Antarctica are combat CSCs, Sahara and Arctica are medical CSCs.

* I estimate CW Fleet size as 9 CSCs, 2 of which are medical, no more than 30 Aquilas, no more than 50 Aurochs, no more than 1000 Centurions, and no more than 100 Britannias.

* I estimate the Ares Fleet size as 10-20 Dreadnoughts, 100-120 Destroyers, 3000-5000 gunships, 95% Sandstorm-class.

* The Ares Fleet doctrine appears to be massive fleet-to-fleet battles, dominated by the supermassive Dreadnoughts with Destroyer support, with massed micronuke barrages and other attacks of opportunity by Tundras, all screened by endless waves of Sandstorms.

* The Ares can afford war by attrition due to their homefield advantage, as well as mass cloning.

* The Phobos appears to be designed for one thing: Smashing through everything. Stand-off attacks are really pointless, as the Phobos cannot be outrun. Once in melee range, it is impossible to dodge the APA and it is game over for any capital ship in the game.

* Nothing in the CW Fleet can handle a Phobos. Absolutely nothing can resist the APA. Many captains have had to learn how powerful plasma:24d24; WMD7 is the hard way.

* In a straight up fleet battle, CW loses handily. None of their gunships are designed to engage capital ships, and the anti-capital-NAMI-Heavy-Launching Aquila-class Cruiser actually loses 1v1 against the Deimos-class Destroyer, and obviously the CSCs aren't designed for direct engagements.

* The XM900 Lucifer is a horrifically ineffective anti-ship missile, as the default fragment (detonation) distance is too far to damage a large sprite (ship) due to the implementation (nature) of radius-type weapons.

* Ares Nuclear Weapons Technology is superior to NAMI's, just compare the M2 and M5 to the micronuke and Warhammer.

* Attempting to mass the 9 remaining CSCs would quickly see them wiped out in one fell stroke by an Ares Attack Fleet of 4-5 Dreadnoughts.

* The CW Fleet appears to have resorted to unconventional warfare in response to both the introduction of the Phobos Dreadnought and Ares Fleet doctrine in general.

* Unconventional warfare requires an intelligence advantage, which the CW appears to possess.

* CSCs must be very stealthy, as being revealed would attract an unstoppable Phobos. They appear to succe1sfully maintain their stealth by destroying incoming Sandstorm patrols.

* CSCs operate as mobile hidden bases, rather than carriers.

* Unconventional warfare consists of hit-and-run attacks combined with raiding enemy population centers. Guided by superior navigation and detection systems, a single squadron of 6 Centurions from several systems away could evade Ares Fleets and strike directly at Outposts or even Communes, the latter by bombarding away with the superior range of the TeV 9.

* This kind of raiding is where the Centurion shines, since the Ares only seem to deploy Sandstorms in defence of Outposts, against which the Centurion achieves a 3:1 kill ratio.

* The Centurion is not a fighter, or even a strike fighter, it is a gunship. This is a crucial distinction that separates a CSC from an aircraft carrier. Unlike a fighter, the Centurion-class Heavy Gunship is designed to operate away from a base for an extended period of time, though it can still receive repairs, refueling, and intelligence from CSCs as necessary.

* The Britannia appears to be a space-superiority gunship, it excels at destroying gunships, but its anti-capital ability is lacking due to the operation of its missiles.

* If the location of a CSC is discovered, this would likely be the only time a ship like the Aquila would be deployed. Acting as a reserve, the entire fleet of Aquilas could be mobilized into a system to draw off the Ares Attack Fleet and hopefully, cover the escape of the CSC.

* In this respect, the Lamplighter is a dead-end and Admiral Decker is foolish for pursuing the development of a Wunderwaffe like it. There is a reason that the Fleet has never deployed the very similar EI Plasma Cannon, and it has to do with range. The Ares have no guided weapon systems or missile defense, reflecting their focus on massive fleet battles dominated by battleships, destroyers and torpedo boats.

* Attempting to engage them as they have prepared their fleet for is suicide. The Lamplighter does not solve the problem of Aquilas being 2-3 shotted by the APA, nor entire Centurion and Britannia gunship formations being annihilated by micronuke barrages.

* What the Fleet would really need is a long range missile packing a single-target anti-ship nuclear shaped charge. This would actually give the Aquila enough stand-off firepower to snipe Ares capital ships at a distance, while remaining clear of their howitzers.

[sun1404]

Actually, combining the Lamplighter with stealth ships could be very effective for crippling a an Ares fleet. The Lamplighter would destroy a Sandstorm in one shot, and Tundra and Chasm won't stand for long against sustained fire. It is also far more effective against the Deimos and Phobos than any other CW weaponries. A squadron of six Centurions or Britannias armed with Lamplighters and equipped with Advanced Stealth armors and a good Ion Deflector would be disastrous to an Ares fleet consisting of, for example, a Phobos, three Deimoses, five Tundras, ten Chasms, and a whole lot of Sandstorms, if the squadron can get a surprise attack. The Lamplighter is not slow, it can dish out enough shots to kill at least five times Sandstorms that of the number of the Archcannons, in the time needed to get from it's maximum range to dogfighting range. With stealth armor the Lamplighter can be in range before the squadron is seen, and they could destroy much of the fleet and maybe even survive. The Phobos would likely survive, but it'll be very damaged at least.

[EditorRUS]

Oh...
Yesterday one CSC DID DESTROYED a phobos. To be accurate not the CSC itself, but his fleet. That was epic battle.

Well, i had weapon extended on hard mode on with random weapons...

I was lagging as hell, even laggier than Space Station 13 when the singularity was lost.

[PM]

Commonwealth has one advantage over Ares. Commonwealth employs or otherwise relies on adventurers, affectionately known as murder-hobos, to kill Ares that get in their way. Like in other CRPGs, adventurers, at least those who survive, appear hypercompetent when measured against their employers.

In a straight-up fight, with stock configurations, Commonwealth has no answer against the Phobos. In 1.2, Lamplighter is weaker than EI plasma cannon against everything except the final (Iocrym) boss.

[EditorRUS]

Well, let's make it bright.

First of all - the commonwealth is far more common, than Ares. Commonwealth's stations can be seen in approximate of 2/3 of the human space. That means they have far more big amount of humans, therefore huge production, but it seems like they have poor research. Moreover - they have good relation with the corporation, which are far more powerful, than commonwealth. So, the corporation have good technology and many items, the commonwealth have huge amount of factories. Being together they even can destroy Ares.

Ares have huge scientific potencial, but it seems like their production is poor. Moreover - they live in dangerous region, where Ranx, Dwarg, the Xenophobes live too. Ranx have big production (just look at their fortresses - usually, there're 10-15 dreadnoughts). Their power is similar to corporation, so, corporation will be negated, if Ares and Ranx join together in war againsts commonwealth. Dwarg can be easily destroyed by anyone who have enough level. Be sure that xenophobes is one of the dangerous race. Their armor can withstand agaists particle and blast weapons, which are being used widely by the commonwealth. Although they usually use particle weapons, but not the xenophobe arc. Xenophobe arc is a superweapon of the Xenophobes. We sure these arcs are dangerous as phobos, but a little more weaker. BUT. They have one tactical advantage - their particle weapon are laser-like, so, they can easily destroy missiles.

Let's make a table of powers:
Name # Rarity # Usual damage type # Usual level of armor # Production # !!Science!! # Friends # Enemies # Backbone # Superweapon

Commonwealth # Common (2/3 of human space) # ion, particle # 7-8 # Huge # Poor # Corporation, Ringers # All other # Centurion # CSC
Corporation # Everywhere # thermo, ion # 8-10 # Huge # Extremaly huge (ramissier, makayev...) # Commonwealth, # Ringers(?) # Neutral # Corporate cruiser? # Corporate cruiser?
Sung # Rare (1/2 of human space) # particle # 5-6 # Poor # Poor # ? # Neutral # Sung slaves # Their ship
Dwarg # Rare # Ion/EMP, Blast # 5-7 # ? # ? # ? # ? # ?# Behemoth?
Urak # Common at 1 part # Blast # 7-8 # Medium # Nope # ? # Everyone
Ringers # Uncommon # Plasma # 8-10 # ? # Huge # Commonwealth # Ares

Urak can easily survive in second part of the human space. They are hard target to destroy and they are the ones who usually destroy commonwealth/corporate stations.

So, total power:
1. Corporation/Ringers
2. Urak/Commonwealth
Urak is less common than commonwealth, but stronger.

Now, another side
Ares # Rare (1/3 of human space) # positron, ion # 7-10 # Medium # Huge # ? # Commonwealth, ringers # All other
Ranx # Common (3/5 of human space) # Ion, thermo # 8 - 10 # High # ? # ? # Ares, all other
Huari ?

So, if first and second ones make a war they will be equal by power.
But commonwealth vs ares is pure suicide to commonwealth.

My yesterday battle:


And some classic Ares vs CSC

[Aury]

Not entirely related, but I was playing around with TSB, testing out the new ships & stations for the Shards of the Domain

I planted a siconiuum, domain, coalition and shard station down next to an ares shipyard & commune and luminous assembler - much fighting ensued.

The fighting raged on for a good half hour before 3 phobii suddenly popped out at once and took out every station and enemy ship except for the assembler - because it cant shoot, so the AI cant target it. The Ares and luminous ships kept fighting for another couple minutes until a random group of roaming cerrai flew by and decimated everyone.

While no CW ships were involved, I figured I might mention it because it goes to show just how absurdly powerful a handful of spammed phobii are - and how they occur much more often in-game than lore suggests. (It also shows the absurdly powerful might of a cerrai colonyship, but thats a story for another thread, another time)

TSB does have ships for the coalition (komodo battleships, mostly due to their heavy use of PD) and domain (nodeship - far rarer and more expensive than a phobos) that can defeat a phobos, but they show up much less frequently than a phobos will, so its certainly possible to get them to spawn at a lower rate.

[sun1404]

The AI cannot target objects that cannot fire?