Weapon Appreciation Thread

[PM]

The main problem with missile defense is that many incoming missiles either have low interaction or too many hitPoints. Missile defense shots either have no interaction (ICX laser) or little (Longreach). This means the opposing missile must have at or near 100 interaction and no more than about 10 hitPoints. Otherwise, the missiles either passthrough each other or the incoming missile eats the missile defense shot. Another problem is the detection range (10) is too short. Missile defense should activate within range 15.

[Song]

Yeah...can we change detection range, incidentally?

Anyway, back to weapons. Anyone use the PK25? I've been tempted to try it a few times post-0.99c, but never found one without there being something better (like a lancer or x-ray) right next to it.

[WillyTheSquid]

Yeah, I use it for anti-station in the early-mid game. Lots of particles = death by a thousand cuts.

[PM]

I used to like the PK25, but not anymore because it is prone to collateral damage. I had more than one game end due to the PK25 angering a friendly station's guards.

[Watch TV, Do Nothing]

What are peoples' feelings w/r/t the slam cannon and heavy slam cannon? They are fine as an enemy weapon, but I find them frustrating to use myself because of the slow firing rate and small projective.

[RPC]

I don't like the slam cannon. At all. Personally, I've skipped over it many times in favor for the Moskva 33 or the lancer cannon. It's at least possible to shoot down projectiles with an enhanced +fast moskva, and the lancer's range is unbeatable.

[PM]

Slam cannon sucks, unless the alternative is a recoilless cannon. It is slow, feels weak (when used by the playership), and a poor basebuster. Heavy slam cannon is a bit better, but I would rather use a Moskva 33 or a mark I howitzer.

[Watch TV, Do Nothing]

I have similar feelings about the thermo and omni thermo cannons. They seem like they're positioned to be the natural successor to the Akan series (same firing rates and projectile speed, ammo-fed, better damage type), but in practice they're very disappointing:

-Akan shells are non-military, ubiquitous, and drop from a common enemy (Ranx). Thermo cannon shells are uncommon, only sold at military equippers (you can't get them at Commonwealth settlements or Thor's Wondrous Devices), expensive, heavy, and I'm not aware of any enemy that uses the thermo cannon. As such, it's extremely hard to keep these fast-firing weapons fed.

-it's easy to get the Akan series to +150% because hexagene boosters are available in packs of three by mail order and you can get an enhanced Akan 600 from Dvalin really easily; it's very hard to get a thermo cannon up above more than +50% or so.

-the Akan series get +50% from the Rasiermesser enhancer, but the Bushido enhancer does not enhance thermo weapons for some reason.

-the thermo cannons do not do appreciable station damage, so you will probably need something else for basecracking, and that something will probably be a thermo howitzer or missiles. If you already have other thermo weapons mounted, it's hard to make a case for adding another one instead of a particle, ion, or positron weapon that will give you a different damage type. This isn't as much of a problem for the Akan weapons because blast damage has an extremely high window in which it's useful, as discussed previously. Akans also make lousy basecrackers, but they're so useful against ships and defense satellites that you can get away with having an all-blast-damage loadout for many, many systems.

So all in all, an unenhanced thermo cannon seems to be a small step up from an Akan 30 in terms of raw damage, but Akan weapons are much easier to enhance beyond what a stock thermo cannon can do while still being cheaper to keep fed that it really doesn't seem to ever make sense to use thermo cannons.

Has anyone ever had an experience with the thermo cannon series that runs against this? They just seem pointless as of now because they are a bad choice for the player, and no enemy uses them. If they did twice their current damage with a correspondingly slower firing rate, or if they did fragmentation damage like the kiloton cannon, I feel that would make them a lot more attractive. For example, I would happily mount an omnidirectional or swivel kiloton cannon.

[Watch TV, Do Nothing]

Slam cannon sucks, unless the alternative is a recoilless cannon. It is slow, feels weak (when used by the playership), and a poor basebuster. Heavy slam cannon is a bit better, but I would rather use a Moskva 33 or a mark I howitzer.

What you say about "feeling weak" is really important. The heavy slam cannon and Moskva 33 do similar DPS, but the heavy slam cannon feels weak because it has no special effect of any kind, while the Moskva's multiple impacts make it intimidating(ex: accidentally flying over an outlaw mining colony with 4 turrets). The same is true when comparing the thermo cannon with the kiloton cannon; the kiloton cannon is much more satisfying to fire because it makes huge, terrifying explosions while the thermo cannon makes dinky little poofs. Weapon effects upon firing and hitting should not be overlooked, even when they're mostly cosmetic.

Other weapons that feel satisfying for the player or intimidating when used by the enemy are the fast-fire laser and laser cannon array, smartcannon, Flenser, Starburst, Urak Howitzer, PK25, actinide waste cannon, some of the more powerful MAGs, lancer cannon, Lucifer, plasma torch, cnidocyst launcher, HARASS power, Katana, Ares lighting turret, Ares Micronuke/Warhammer, Rasiermesser and Nami Heavy launchers, Lamplighter, and Avalanche.

[PM]

I wrote the slam cannon feels weak, not the heavy slam cannon. That said, heavy slam cannon is not that great either, but at least the shots travel fast and the range is decent. Moskva 33 DPS (67.5) is higher than heavy slam cannon DPS (52.5). It better be due to the Moskva's slow shot speed and poor range.

[Watch TV, Do Nothing]

I wrote the slam cannon feels weak, not the heavy slam cannon. That said, heavy slam cannon is not that great either, but at least the shots travel fast and the range is decent. Moskva 33 DPS (67.5) is higher than heavy slam cannon DPS (52.5). It better be due to the Moskva's slow shot speed and poor range.

That's true, and the Heavy Slam Cannon is unpleasant in the hands of the Huari because the Hurin mounts so many of them. Moskva's effective DPS is probably lower against many enemies due to shot spread, although this is reversed against weak, hard-to-hit enemies like Wind Slavers and Corsairs where only a few shots need to connect.

[PM]

Hurin destroyers are armed with six regular slam cannons.

[Watch TV, Do Nothing]

Hurin destroyers are armed with six regular slam cannons.

Wow, I hadn't realized. Getting attacked by a Hurin feels much more intimidating than getting attacked by a swarm of Meth Enforcers.

[Atarlost]

I have similar feelings about the thermo and omni thermo cannons. They seem like they're positioned to be the natural successor to the Akan series (same firing rates and projectile speed, ammo-fed, better damage type), but in practice they're very disappointing:

-Akan shells are non-military, ubiquitous, and drop from a common enemy (Ranx). Thermo cannon shells are uncommon, only sold at military equippers (you can't get them at Commonwealth settlements or Thor's Wondrous Devices), expensive, heavy, and I'm not aware of any enemy that uses the thermo cannon. As such, it's extremely hard to keep these fast-firing weapons fed.

Military ammo is available for purchase from the CW stations with the turrets around them. Ammo is available in limitless quantities and at that point in the game there isn't much else to spend credits on. If you're having ammo problems with the thermocannon you're switching too soon. Thermocannon shells are also available in significant quantities from Gaian Processors. A single such encounter can have thousands of shells.

-it's easy to get the Akan series to +150% because hexagene boosters are available in packs of three by mail order and you can get an enhanced Akan 600 from Dvalin really easily; it's very hard to get a thermo cannon up above more than +50% or so.

Thermo enhancers are also available in packs of three by mail order. It's only ion enhancers that aren't. Enhancing a single thermo weapon to >+100% is no great hardship and if you're farming stuff for Dvalin on a routine basis you're more patient than most players. If you do get Dvalin's Akan it's adequately enhanced and you can save corporate outpost orders for thermo enhancers for later use on a Bushido omni thermocannon, Taikon TM-7, or NAMI advanced tritium cannon.

-the Akan series get +50% from the Rasiermesser enhancer, but the Bushido enhancer does not enhance thermo weapons for some reason.

That is a bit of a dissappointment, but the Bushido thermocannon still makes one of the best omnis in the game.

-the thermo cannons do not do appreciable station damage, so you will probably need something else for basecracking, and that something will probably be a thermo howitzer or missiles. If you already have other thermo weapons mounted, it's hard to make a case for adding another one instead of a particle, ion, or positron weapon that will give you a different damage type. This isn't as much of a problem for the Akan weapons because blast damage has an extremely high window in which it's useful, as discussed previously. Akans also make lousy basecrackers, but they're so useful against ships and defense satellites that you can get away with having an all-blast-damage loadout for many, many systems.

You don't actually need dedicated basecrackers in the late game. All stations in level 7-9 systems are defenseless apart from external turrets which the Omni Thermocannon (or, yes, the Akan 600) are perfect for dealing with, being able to target them with greater precision than quantized ship rotation allows from beyond their own range. Using a poor man's basebuster like the Xenophobe Lancer or a short range skirmish/basebuster, like any plasma weapon, is perfectly adequate.

So all in all, an unenhanced thermo cannon seems to be a small step up from an Akan 30 in terms of raw damage, but Akan weapons are much easier to enhance beyond what a stock thermo cannon can do while still being cheaper to keep fed that it really doesn't seem to ever make sense to use thermo cannons.

The conclusion doesn't stand with the support refuted.

Has anyone ever had an experience with the thermo cannon series that runs against this? They just seem pointless as of now because they are a bad choice for the player, and no enemy uses them. If they did twice their current damage with a correspondingly slower firing rate, or if they did fragmentation damage like the kiloton cannon, I feel that would make them a lot more attractive. For example, I would happily mount an omnidirectional or swivel kiloton cannon.

I find them a perfectly good weapon as they are. Well, the omni anyhow. It's harder to justify using a high rate of fire ammo weapon that isn't omni.

[Watch TV, Do Nothing]

stuff

Watch 'n learn, folks; this is how you systematically demolish an argument. I didn't know any of that stuff about thermo enhancers or Gaian processors. I guess I stand corrected.

EDit- it makes sense that thermo enhancers would be easier to get from corporate trading posts, since there's no thermo equivalent of a longzhu sphere.