Sticking to one ship is a missed gameplay opportunity

[goduranus]

This bit of Transcendence has always bugged me since I found the game in 2008.

I know it's trivial to text edit saved games file to swap yourself into a frigate or a dreadnaught, but how this game features hundreds of ships but only allows you to pilot 3-4 of them seems like a real big opportunity that was missed. Seems like they'll work fine if the players were allowed to play them too, and it'd satisfy those players who want to work their way to flying dreadnaughts.

What lead to the decision to only make 3 ships flyable, even though there are so many ships in game?

[Watch TV, Do Nothing]

I think that most ships only have something like 24 directional facings rendered whereas the player ships have a lot more. This is an artifact of the early development stages of the game when all ships had reduced rotational frames, including the player ships. Quite a few ship sprites have been in the game since v.0.7, which was 12 years ago! Back then, dial-up was still common and keeping download size small was a priority.

It's pretty frustrating to play a ship with so few facings because fine maneuvering is difficult. George has stated that increasing rotational frames for all ships is a future goal. I believe that George made the 3D models for many ships available a couple years ago and there were a few high-frame ships mods made back then.

[george moromisato]

I've been thinking about adding this (though it won't make the 1.6 release). I'd also like to provide a way to optionally start an adventure in the middle (because sometimes one is tired of doing re-doing the first part). Here's my proposal:

1. Add ship-buying stations at key points in the game. For example, in St. Katharine's Star you could buy new level 5 ships classes. Later on when you reach Point Juno, perhaps you can buy Britannias (or whatever).
2. Once you reach one of these stations, you unlock the ability to start with one of these ships. For example, you could start the next game with a level 5 ship and start in St. Katharine's Star.

[Ihlosi]

More significant differences between the three player ship types would be interesting.

The armor mass limit, for example, is rarely relevant. You can still have a heavily armored Sapphire yacht, and the ability to install 20-ton armor segments on the freighter is hardly relevant once you get past lv 4-5 armors. The most annoying thing about the limit is that I can't repair some of the heavier armor by putting it on the ship first if I'm flying the Sapphire.

One thing that could be done is to add more higher-level freighter-only armor (maybe even a lvl 6-8 version of solar armor?), and maybe add shields that are exclusive to the Sapphire yacht. This way, the Wolfen would excel at speed and firepower (but can't mount the best shields or the best armor), the freighter has interesting armor options (at the expense of firepower, speed and shields), and the Sapphire yacht would have access to the best shields, but be limited in the choice of armor.

[Atarlost]

The problem with making better ships available over time is that it creates another upgrade treadmill. The problem with making them available as new game plus, or almost any new game plus, is that it borks balance.

[george moromisato]

The problem with making better ships available over time is that it creates another upgrade treadmill. The problem with making them available as new game plus, or almost any new game plus, is that it borks balance.

Not sure I get the first problem (upgrade treadmill). What do you mean? And why is it a problem?

And I guess I don't get your second problem either. How does it "bork balance"? [I'm not disagreeing--I'm just not sure which problem you're talking about.]

[JohnBWatson]

I've been thinking about adding this (though it won't make the 1.6 release). I'd also like to provide a way to optionally start an adventure in the middle (because sometimes one is tired of doing re-doing the first part). Here's my proposal:

1. Add ship-buying stations at key points in the game. For example, in St. Katharine's Star you could buy new level 5 ships classes. Later on when you reach Point Juno, perhaps you can buy Britannias (or whatever).
2. Once you reach one of these stations, you unlock the ability to start with one of these ships. For example, you could start the next game with a level 5 ship and start in St. Katharine's Star.

I think both of these are brilliant. A possible addition to this would be to tie Fleet purchases to rank.

In addition, buying IAVs from tinker stations would work quite well and give them a bit more purpose in game.

---

More significant differences between the three player ship types would be interesting.

The armor mass limit, for example, is rarely relevant. You can still have a heavily armored Sapphire yacht, and the ability to install 20-ton armor segments on the freighter is hardly relevant once you get past lv 4-5 armors. The most annoying thing about the limit is that I can't repair some of the heavier armor by putting it on the ship first if I'm flying the Sapphire.

One thing that could be done is to add more higher-level freighter-only armor (maybe even a lvl 6-8 version of solar armor?), and maybe add shields that are exclusive to the Sapphire yacht. This way, the Wolfen would excel at speed and firepower (but can't mount the best shields or the best armor), the freighter has interesting armor options (at the expense of firepower, speed and shields), and the Sapphire yacht would have access to the best shields, but be limited in the choice of armor.

I like the idea of making ships more differentiated, but making items restricted to individual ships violates the KISS principal and is somewhat contrived. What's been done with the Freyr, Constellation, and Manticore is much more interesting and more fitting to the game.

---

The problem with making better ships available over time is that it creates another upgrade treadmill. The problem with making them available as new game plus, or almost any new game plus, is that it borks balance.

I disagree. Combat in Transcendence is largely derived from Star Control 2, with particular relation to each ship having individual strengths and weaknesses. An 'upgrade treadmill' implies that we would need to keep perfectly updated ships to stay ahead, and that's frankly not true. While a Britannia would be useful for bearing heavy weaponry and armor, a Wolfen is more capable of evading things like an APA, and the standard EI500 would still serve as a reliable freighter. While some ships might have advantages over others in some areas, this would not detract from being able to create your own strategy. Indeed, it would add a host of new ones, and perhaps some alternatives to the more tired setups. Similarly to how some players forgo shields to build up their armor, or keep a Flenser well into midgame, players could bring the specialties of ships into the equation, making a host of new playstyles viable. Taking a more specialized ship could allow me to set up an optimal build for the game, only to be forced to improvise should a station or item not show up, bringing back some of the fun of Nethack.

As for balance, I would argue that adding additional ships would improve it. Right now, out of necessity, the playerships must be jacks of all trades, and to some degree strengths and weaknesses must be downplayed. Wolfens must be able to haul massive howitzers typically fitted on battleships, EI500s must fit military grade engines, and Sapphires must hold military grade superreactors. With more ships available, these vessels could diversify much more, making the player put thought into their strategy and skill into their combat. Heavier weapons could be limited to dedicated attack ships, in a manner similar to how armor plating is limited now. Freighters could be given omnidirectional turrets, but at the expense of not being able to load on that Petranacium megadrive and outrun Sandstorms with ease. The Wolfen would no longer be able to fit capital ship armor, but its maneuverability could serve as a substitute for that.

The addition of some ships as starting vessels might cause some balance issues, but the idea of adding 'classes' with successive playthroughs is a tried and true concept for RPGs, especially roguelikes. My (perhaps a bit conservative) suggestion would be to limit the starters gained to a 'baseline' ship of any given archetype. For example, players could be able to unlock Centurions but not Britannias, and Antares IIs but not Vs.

[Atarlost]

The problem with making better ships available over time is that it creates another upgrade treadmill. The problem with making them available as new game plus, or almost any new game plus, is that it borks balance.

Not sure I get the first problem (upgrade treadmill). What do you mean? And why is it a problem?

And I guess I don't get your second problem either. How does it "bork balance"? [I'm not disagreeing--I'm just not sure which problem you're talking about.]

It's another thing the player has to change out to keep up with the difficulty curve. There's no point in putting in late game ships that aren't better than early game ships. To keep the difficulty curve on track either the late game content needs to become too difficult with the early game ships or they need to have something taken away from them to give the late game ships an advantage to justify their existence and late access.

And new game plus, unless it's either just cosmetic or harder difficulty modes, creates a positive feedback loop in which the more a player demonstrates they don't need advantages the more advantages they're given. The challenge goes down just when the player needs it to go up.

[Song]

Eh...there are ways to prevent being forced to get upgrades. First up: Specialisation.


Currently, playerships aren't actually that specialised. We have armor mass limits that....don't really matter because armors tend to have the same mass. We have acceleration and performance stats, which do make a difference...and we have device slot limits, which are a pretty good thing. The trick then is to give things robust specialisations: Device power limits, device mass limits (anyone else find it odd that the giant APA weighs 10t and can be put on a yacht?), bonuses or penalties to function depending on the manufacturer, particular types of weapons or damage types that the ship excels in, maximum reactor power levels, an increased boost to cargo space when you install an external hold..... That sort of thing.

Currently, the game has a declining set of options as you go through it. Adding some specialist ships (think 'prestige classes', since ships in T are basically our character class) could widen options a bit. However they'd need to be accompanied with a general rebalance of armor and other gear so that there's reasons to stay in your current ship, and also reasons to get new ones.



In short, if ships are a simple bundle of stats, then it's very easy to just choose "the best", and either ignore the new ones or be forced to upgrade. But if ships have more variables, and more specialised roles.....then later-game ships are prestige classes, rather than Win Buttons.

Edit: Offering them under certain conditions would also help: Eg. Requiring rank or reputation. You could rank up in the BM and get the molotok, or brave the terrors of the Ares War to have the privilege of flying the mighty Britannia (...ok, bad example.).

[george moromisato]

It's another thing the player has to change out to keep up with the difficulty curve. There's no point in putting in late game ships that aren't better than early game ships. To keep the difficulty curve on track either the late game content needs to become too difficult with the early game ships or they need to have something taken away from them to give the late game ships an advantage to justify their existence and late access.

And new game plus, unless it's either just cosmetic or harder difficulty modes, creates a positive feedback loop in which the more a player demonstrates they don't need advantages the more advantages they're given. The challenge goes down just when the player needs it to go up.

Got it--thanks.

Isn't it possible to introduce ships in the mid-game that are balanced? Imagine that in St Kats you can trade in your ship for a different one (presumably for some price). The player has a choice: get the new ship, which has some set of capabilities (and limitations), or use the money to upgrade their current ship.

Ideally, this should not be a forced choice. That is, both paths should be viable. [To me this is the same as introducing new player weapons/devices in the game. They need to be balanced against equivalent weapons.]

As for starting in the middle of an adventure, my goal is simply to give players more chances to experience the mid- and late-games. This is just like the permadeath conduct. If you want to honor it, then your accomplishment should be acknowledged in the game record. But if you don't want to honor it, that's OK. In the same way, starting at level 1 and getting to Heretic counts as a "full game". But if you want to play a half-game by starting at St Kats with a level 5 ship, I think you should be allowed to.

BTW: I think these two ideas are orthogonal. We could do one without the other. [And in any case, neither is getting done for the next version.]

p.s.: I didn't see Shrike's post before I wrote mine, but I agree with everything they said.

[Song]

And new game plus, unless it's either just cosmetic or harder difficulty modes, creates a positive feedback loop in which the more a player demonstrates they don't need advantages the more advantages they're given. The challenge goes down just when the player needs it to go up.

New Game -

Start with centauri raider, demolished reputation, a dozen crimes to your name and a microsaur continuously biting your character's ear, then have to fight your old endgame ship at the end of the game.


But yes, I do agree....New Game + is a difficult thing to work with. It is *possible*, but it should buff the content, rather than letting the player smash all before them. We do that enough anyway.

As for starting in the middle of an adventure, my goal is simply to give players more chances to experience the mid- and late-games. This is just like the permadeath conduct. If you want to honor it, then your accomplishment should be acknowledged in the game record. But if you don't want to honor it, that's OK. In the same way, starting at level 1 and getting to Heretic counts as a "full game". But if you want to play a half-game by starting at St Kats with a level 5 ship, I think you should be allowed to.

I agree with this system! A lot of current players I see in IRC and around the forums have never seen the ICS. Or the phobos. Or a lot of the endgame content. It's surprisingly common for people to get stuck, or get bored, and go download mods and screw around in the early game rather than actually finishing it. This is a legitmate playstyle, but it does waste half the game. Giving a shorter campaign for them to use would get more people playing lategame content....this means more bugs and problems get found, which means the endgame can be uniformly improved for everyone. And people get to get killed b-.....I mean....get to see and appreciate the majesty of things like the Phobos. And Pteravores. And the ventari.

[JohnBWatson]

Eh...there are ways to prevent being forced to get upgrades. First up: Specialisation.


Currently, playerships aren't actually that specialised. We have armor mass limits that....don't really matter because armors tend to have the same mass. We have acceleration and performance stats, which do make a difference...and we have device slot limits, which are a pretty good thing. The trick then is to give things robust specialisations: Device power limits, device mass limits (anyone else find it odd that the giant APA weighs 10t and can be put on a yacht?), bonuses or penalties to function depending on the manufacturer, particular types of weapons or damage types that the ship excels in, maximum reactor power levels, an increased boost to cargo space when you install an external hold..... That sort of thing.

Exactly what I was thinking. Mass limited weapon slots would be particularly important for turrets - an EI700 with an *omnidirectional Fusionfire truly would be gamebreaking.

Currently, the game has a declining set of options as you go through it. Adding some specialist ships (think 'prestige classes', since ships in T are basically our character class) could widen options a bit. However they'd need to be accompanied with a general rebalance of armor and other gear so that there's reasons to stay in your current ship, and also reasons to get new ones.

Indeed. You may have more insight into this by virtue of having looked through the source code, but here's how I view this working out:

Possible starter = bold

Fighter
Fast moving, small ships that have medium armor weight capacity(perhaps with less towards the back), medium weapon weight capacity, low device space, and low cargo space.
-Wolfen
-Ronin
-Light IAV

Strike fighter
Heavily armed and armored gunships. >4 armor segments, heavy armor capacity, heavy weapon capacity, medium speed, low cargo space. Low if any device space; dedicated military ships. Larger than the other classes of ship, and thus a bigger target.
-Centurion
-Heavy IAV
-Britannia
-Molotok
-Manticore

Logistical/Civillian
Light - moderate armament, medium armor capacity, moderate speed, medium - high cargo space, high device capacity. Low - moderate size, and higher than average maneuverability. Possible omnidirectional slot.
-Sapphire
-Medium IAV
-Aurochs

Merchant vessel
Moderate speed, armor capacity, device capacity, and armament. High cargo capacity, moderate - high size.
-EI500
-EI100
-T31
-Borer(II) Gunship

Dedicated Freighter
Low - Moderate speed, heavy armor capacity, moderate *omnidirectional weapon capacity. Very high cargo space. Large size, and less maneuverability than other ship classes.
-Antares I
-Antares series
-Upper EI series
-Scarab
-T55

In short, if ships are a simple bundle of stats, then it's very easy to just choose "the best", and either ignore the new ones or be forced to upgrade. But if ships have more variables, and more specialised roles.....then later-game ships are prestige classes, rather than Win Buttons.

Exactly.

Edit: Offering them under certain conditions would also help: Eg. Requiring rank or reputation. You could rank up in the BM and get the molotok, or brave the terrors of the Ares War to have the privilege of flying the mighty Britannia (...ok, bad example.).

Agree. I'd like to see that expanded to a manner of achievement system for unlocking a new starting ship after a permadeath game. Earn an Antares I by reaching "legend" the hard way. A Centurion by maxing Fleet rank and completing the Lamplighter questline.

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As for starting in the middle of an adventure, my goal is simply to give players more chances to experience the mid- and late-games. This is just like the permadeath conduct. If you want to honor it, then your accomplishment should be acknowledged in the game record. But if you don't want to honor it, that's OK. In the same way, starting at level 1 and getting to Heretic counts as a "full game". But if you want to play a half-game by starting at St Kats with a level 5 ship, I think you should be allowed to.

I'd like that. Starting at Kat's, Maximus, or Point Juno would be a new way through the storyline. Similarly to how the EI500 starts out with an ROM and the Sapphire with credits, Centurions could start out with Fleet ranks.

[neogoliath]

Not having played too much, so I'm probably not familiar with the intentions of the community or the developer

But I had hoped to play in a Charon frigate or Tripoli Destroyer, cuz those look cool

[sun1404]

If we're going to have multiple starting points, I think they should not be made available from the start. One must meet some kind of requirement, before the other starting points becomes available. The rules might be like this:

- Play to the end, and all starting points become available.
- Play without dying to a starting point, and that starting point becomes available.

And then, maybe we can add some 'special' starting points or starting options, as reward for some achievements, for example:

- Starting in the Hurin system with a special Huari ship (Maybe the cruiser, or maybe something else) after beating the Huari storyline without dying.
- Start in a late system with a weak ship, after beating the game, or reaching a certain system, without dying.
- Start without a weapon or shield, and no money, but with extra Domina powers unlocked (maybe to Circle of Wrath) after reaching the Patriarch level.
- etc.

[Song]

Eh, simple way to do it with startpoints would just be "If you can reach it, you can start from it".