damage type problem

[Betelgeuse]

The problem with damage types is that we are running out of them (we need more for future games).
Adding more would be tons of work so oddbob and me came up with a different system for damage types. (we did this so there can be lots of different ways a weapon can be, it is very limited now)

A weapon would have four types shot composition, shot speed, shot mass, shot area.

composition would be a simplified version of what we have now things like matter, anti matter, ion, light

speed is obvious

mass is because its easier to resist an ice cube going fast than a ton of ice going fast so that implies difference in resistance.

area is how much area it covers like piecing (point) weapons are different than slicing weapons are different than explosions.

damage would still be in there but now shields and armor have four different things to consider when finding the damage. That will make for a much more differentiated system than just types.

[OddBob]

Ok we have revised it. EDIT: A few times

There are now six modifiers:

composition
What the weapon consists of.
Can be matter, antimatter, EM, graviton, dark, nano, or chemical

speed
How fast it is going. Some shields/armors may be effective against slower or faster things.
Speeds can be 0, low, m/s, km/s, .001c , near c, and c.

mass
How massive it is. Again, somethings might be effective against different masses.
Can be massless, particle-sized, light, medium, heavy, supermassive

area
how wide an area it effects on the target ship (note that this is only for on the target ship not shock waves or things).

Can be point, microscopic, small, large, spread, and shipwide/massive

Spread is either an explosion or many small particles. Shipwide/massive is so large that it covers then entire ship regardless of the size of the ship (a very wide beam or shockwave generally).

charge
If the weapon is charged (i.e. a charged particle beam is ineffective against a shield with a like charge but devastating to one with an opposite charge)
Can be negative, neutral or positive

frequency
Mostly for EM to differentiate the different types of radiation but coudl be used for a vibrating weapon or something.
Expressed in Hz.
Can be 0, 10^3 (Khz), 10^6 (Mhz), 10^9 (GHz), 10^12 (Thz), 10^15 (Phz), 10^18 (Ehz), 10^21 (gamma rays. No one know those prefixes anyway )

[Fossaman]

This is an interesting idea. I agree that the current system could use some re-working to make it more versatile.

I find the idea of weapons having a charge kind of interesting; what about a weapon that has both a positive and negative charge? How would that be handled? Neutrally charged particles? Can we finally get rid of the difference between positrons and antimatter?

I'm not certain what sort of applications 'area' would have. I can't really see it being that useful unless some sort of layering system for individual armor segments is implemented, so that weapons with a small area were more likely to punch through while larger area weapons would simply damage the top layer of the armor.

[OddBob]

Note that it has changed fossa since you replied to it . Took awhile to hash out the details.

As for ares, for examply you could have a shield which is very powerful but can only "protect" a small area at a time so large area weapons would get through.

[Betelgeuse]

there are 42336 possible combinations
some are not realistic but still that is alot of combinations.

For shields and armor they would just have a list of resistances for each modifier. Then you just multiply them together to get the total resistance for that damage.

Absorb was a cool idea but wasn't practical (it grew with the damage types). It would easier to say a shield allows certain modifiers to pass through.

[Betelgeuse]

just a personal revision (wanted most of the combinations to make sence) of them any thoughts? anything you don't think belongs?, anything you think is missing?

composition
What the weapon consists of.
Can be atoms, microwave, visible, X ray, gamma, graviton, dark, ions

damage action
How the damage is done.
Can be impact, nuclear, radiation, chemical, shear, heat, distortion, electrical

damage shape
what shape of an area it effects on the target ship
Can be inverted cone, crater, flat, line, random, progressive (ie uses the target ship to damage the target ship)

damage size
what size of area the damage effects
minimal, small, large, shipwide

charge
If the weapon is charged (i.e. a charged particle beam is ineffective against a shield with a like charge but devastating to one with an opposite charge)
Can be negative, neutral or positive

Momentum
How much momentum the weapon has.
Can be trivial, small, medium, massive

[Bobby]

for momentum- how about the game multiply the projectile's mass by it's speed(mass must be added for projectiles)? using the kinetic energy formula of course.


what about being able to specify more than one damaage type? for example, a thin superheated rod at 50% lightspeed would do impact AND heat damage. if the rod was fuel it may also go thermo on impact. with the impact being a small area, but the thermo being less concentrated(unless it embedded deep in the armor before exploding, armor thickness may need to be added).

this is a VERY complex system.

how about for charge, if the particles and shield are the same, the particles turn away from the ship, if different they are attracted to the ship and turn towards it. the closer it gets the more it turns.

woudn't very small area weapons just coast clean through some armors? it's an instakill unless the hull heals itself from small holes, then the projectile could damage devices, what if it hits the reactor?

[Betelgeuse]

you are making this way more complex than it needs to be Bobby, you need to be able to calculate resistance. That is why we split everything into categories so it would be possible to have resistances for every category.

for example, a thin superheated rod at 50% lightspeed would do impact AND heat damage.

would be in my system (the speed and heat are not major components of damage for the weapon you described this only cares about how damage is resisted once the full effect is done)

composition="atoms"
action="shear"
shape="crater" (you didn't describe an interesting shape )
size="large"
charge="neutral" (thermo explosions are neutral)
Momentum="massive" (embedded explosions don't get resistance well)

The exact grade and the minor damage from impact can just be done with damage or if you want to get fancy just have the explosion as a fragment then you can model them separately.

[Periculi]

This strikes me as an extremely difficult alteration of the game engine. To make the changes you suggest here would require a major overhaul of the existing combat system, and while being interesting in theory it seems to me that the actuality of changing the system this much is never going to happen in this game engine.

[Betelgeuse]

the problem is that we don't have enough damage types for three games and using them for two would be very constraining. What do we do in this case?
A different reason why this is needed because damage type is one of the few interesting differences between weapons (configuration being the other) because it isn't linear (choices between two weapons with the same stats except one linear stat isn't a real choice just choose the better one, some linear stats are cost, rate of fire, and damage). So with so few damage types it narrows down the choices we make (for example choosing between a dual turbo laser and a slam cannon is a very interesting choice choosing between a dual laser and a dual turbo laser is not.)

[Periculi]

The problem really is not the number of damage types. It is the way that the damage types are being used. If more of the damage types were effective for more of the game levels then it wouldn't be a problem. Allowing the damage to become completely useless at certain levels is the real difficulty.

[Betelgeuse]

so then why change damage types at all then? (with a backup in case of immune enemies?)
You can get very far with just lasers right now just think if they where viable throughout the game. I would never have to change damage types. That doesn't seem to be a good thing.

[Periculi]

You would have to change damage types if you wanted (or received) better / more efficient equipment. You would have more options, in that sense. You would be able to go through the game with different equipment, as per stated desire. And it wouldn't need a rewrite of the combat damage system. Just some re-organizing in the XML from the modders, a much more likely to happen scenario.

With damage types being phased out in preference of better ones, the equipment selection is narrowed down and thus the options. How do you get more optional ship builds without designing a new game?

[Betelgeuse]

ok in the current system I never use kinetic weapons they basically have the same lifetime as laser and I like laser weapons more. If everything was like that I wouldn't change damage types at all.
This thread is about getting people to try out items you wouldn't normally, I think making damage types viable throughout the game a step in the opposite way. At least now when I am force to change damage types I can't play the way I have been playing.

[Ttech]

ok in the current system I never use kinetic weapons they basically have the same lifetime as laser and I like laser weapons more. If everything was like that I wouldn't change damage types at all.
This thread is about getting people to try out items you wouldn't normally, I think making damage types viable throughout the game a step in the opposite way. At least now when I am force to change damage types I can't play the way I have been playing.

I like the particle weapons.