Plot "bugs" [SPOILERS]

[george moromisato]

Let's use this thread to discuss Transcendence plot issues: confusing points, parts that strain credulity, cliched plot twists, and anything about the Transcendence story that could use help.

Below is a quick summary of the plot in Part I (up until Heretic):

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A dream (or some kind of experience) convinces the player that he/she has been chosen by Domina to join her at the Galactic Core. The player leaves his or her former life behind to meet Domina at the Galactic Core. [Revealed in the initial text crawl]

Domina is an entity that can somehow communicate (mentally) with humans. She is worshipped by some (many? most?), particularly the Sisters of Domina who have formed an entire religion around Her. [Revealed on the first visit to a Sisters of Domina station]

Others are called to the Core by Domina. None have so far succeeded and nobody know why Domina wants them to go.

Oracus is Domina's main adversary and is portrayed as evil incarnate by the Sisters. The Penitents have some kind of relationship with Oracus. [Revealed in text about the Penitents]

On the way to the Core, the player reaches St. Katharine's Star and learns about the Iocrym. More than 50 years ago ships from the Iocrym visited humans in St. Katharine's Star--the first contact ever with an alien race. The Iocrym promised to return, but haven't yet. [Revealed in First Contact Monument.]

From other conversations at the First Contact Monument, the player learns that the Iocrym have blocked the way to the Core.

In the Huaramarca system, the player meets Apotamo, a high-priest of the Huari. The Huari have a religion based on the worship of "The Light". Apotamo tells the player about a dream in which he forsees that the player will somehow cause the destruction of all Human Space.

When the player finally reaches Heretic, the path is indeed blocked and the Iocrym have no problems attacking and killing anyone who tries to leave. The player hacks an Iocrym AI (using technology provided by the Sisters) and the AI reveals the Iocrym's plan: The Iocrym are trying to protect the galaxy from Oracus. Apparently Oracus is awakening (or something) and somehow humans can help Him. The Iocrym are so worried that they are planning to destroy all of Human Space. And apparently all of this is Domina's idea.
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SOME QUESTIONS

1. Is all of the above plot info available to the player from game content alone?

2. Is there other game content that conflicts with (or confuses) the plot summary above?

3. Are there additional areas of plot that should be expanded in Part I?

4. Is there anything else about the main storyline that doesn't work for you?

[Atarlost]

The player hacks an Iocrym AI (using technology provided by the Sisters) and the AI reveals the Iocrym's plan: The Iocrym are trying to protect the galaxy from Oracus. Apparently Oracus is awakening (or something) and somehow humans can help Him. The Iocrym are so worried that they are planning to destroy all of Human Space. And apparently all of this is Domina's idea.

This bit of plot is very easy to miss right now. Hacking the AI is difficult at least without the quantum CPU, and the quantum CPU has been pretty much a useless waste of a slot up until Heretic. The Domina station is also the station most easily wiped out by the Iocrym and the station most likely to lock you out for reducing a puny sapphire yacht to space dust while trying to rescue it from the Iocrym lobster-drones. If this information is important it needs to be harder to fail to get, or it will need to be repeated early in Part II of the game.

[Aury]

Others are called to the Core by Domina. None have so far succeeded and nobody know why Domina wants them to go.

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If so, where are all the ships? Do the sentinels occasionally clean out Heretic? Can't be the disintigrator cannon, since nobody got past the event horizon to encounter the command ship. Not every pilgrim must have necessarily died or given up/sold their ships... I'm having fun with this in TX2...

Oracus is Domina's main adversary and is portrayed as evil incarnate by the Sisters. The Penitents have some kind of relationship with Oracus. [Revealed in text about the Penitents]

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Info on Oracus and the Penitents are still rather vague and limited: the info you posted ages ago back on the UTF was that the Penitents were also originally a voluntary extinction movement, that later became mandatory (ie, they kill others prior to themselves). In that case, why arn't they more aggressive and attack all enemies near them? In any case, the Penitents just seem to have too much of a back seat in all of this to me...

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It also reminds me of how the Ares govt. is supposedly doing all their stuff in the name of Domina as well (same UTF post I think). Any chance of that getting expanded upon or is it dropped altogether?

When the player finally reaches Heretic, the path is indeed blocked and the Iocrym have no problems attacking and killing anyone who tries to leave. The player hacks an Iocrym AI (using technology provided by the Sisters) and the AI reveals the Iocrym's plan: The Iocrym are trying to protect the galaxy from Oracus. Apparently Oracus is awakening (or something) and somehow humans can help Him. The Iocrym are so worried that they are planning to destroy all of Human Space. And apparently all of this is Domina's idea.

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So is it really just 'apparently'? But the major discrepancy here is the issue that why would Domina bother making the Iocrym blockade in the first place, if she wanted people to break through?

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Another Heretic system discrepency highlighted by Atarlosts post - why do the Iocrym attack other followers of domina? (The sisters)

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SOME QUESTIONS

1. Is all of the above plot info available to the player from game content alone?

2. Is there other game content that conflicts with (or confuses) the plot summary above?

3. Are there additional areas of plot that should be expanded in Part I?

4. Is there anything else about the main storyline that doesn't work for you?

[Betelgeuse]

SOME QUESTIONS

1. Is all of the above plot info available to the player from game content alone?

2. Is there other game content that conflicts with (or confuses) the plot summary above?

3. Are there additional areas of plot that should be expanded in Part I?

4. Is there anything else about the main storyline that doesn't work for you?

1. Oracus isn't mentioned beyond some stuff at by the AI except one line by the sisters. There needs to be more.
3. We have no reason to like Domina or dislike Oracus but we have reasons to dislike Domina.
4. Right now it`s a bit shallow. A change I would like to see is make it more of a Prometheus type story. (where Oracus is Prometheus) That way Oracus could have done stuff that isn't obvious that the player would like. (such as messed with our dna) Domina would see Oracus as a criminal disrupting the laws that they have set forth.

[Aury]

From IRC: the OoP should be scarier too. Their station area damage thing is something to keep on your toes as you whiz around w/ autopilot, but their ships are very weak.
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IRC posts so far:

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[17:19]	<Azar_Wolf>	[SPOILERS] === http://www.neurohack.com/transcendence/forums/viewtopic.php?t=2463 <- george post
[17:23]	|<--	Prophet has left chat.freenode.net (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out))
[17:23]	<Atarlost>	I see.
[17:24]	<Taben>	a bit shallower than I thought :P
[17:25]	<Taben>	I really think he should go with a Prometheus like plot line he could keep most of the current stuff as is and make a real decision for the player
[17:27]	-->|	Prophet ([email protected]) has joined ##transcendence
[17:27]	-->|	jamesmtechy ([email protected]) has joined ##transcendence
[17:28]	<Atarlost>	With Oracus as prometheus?
[17:28]	<Taben>	yes
[17:29]	<Atarlost>	I just hope to have the opportunity to kill Domina and drive the ancient races to a much quicker extinction than a million years.
[17:29]	<Taben>	you could even make it so Oracus mess with humans dna
[17:29]	<Taben>	to give even more interesting choices
[17:29]	<Atarlost>	You'd have to change the penitants.
[17:29]	<Taben>	yes
[17:30]	<Taben>	but they don't say anything ingame
[17:30]	<Atarlost>	They're also hopelessly lame.
[17:30]	<Atarlost>	The Sapiens are scarier.
[17:30]	<Taben>	only the AI and the sisters say anything about Oracus
[17:32]	<Azar_Wolf>	bbl
[17:34]	<Atarlost>	see ya
[17:50]	<Azar_Wolf>	penitants REALLY need some more interestingness
[17:55]	<Taben>	that depends on Oracus
[17:55]	<Taben>	and how George wants to go
[17:58]	<Atarlost>	I'd also like for whoever's talking in Apotomo's dreams to be an unreliable narrator.
[18:04]	<Atarlost>	I'd prefer to not be a pawn of prophecy.
[18:08]	<Taben>	I don't care about the prophecy as much as real choices
[18:09]	<Taben>	that reasonable people would disagree on
[18:09]	<d1gdug>	as soon as i can choose to follow a prophecy or not to follow it, then i'm ok
[18:09]	<Atarlost>	It's hard to have choice if you're railroaded into a prophecy.
[18:10]	<Taben>	I really doubt that we will have no choice
[18:10]	<Atarlost>	I'd perfectly happlily sacrifice the ancient races to horrible deaths to prevent that prophecy.
[18:11]	<Atarlost>	Actually, I'd perfectly happliy sacrifice the ancient races out of spite for breaking up my charachter's marriage, but I'd even more happily sacrifice them to prevent the prophecy.
[18:11]	<d1gdug>	ah, Taben , I nearly forgot, the mod I uploaded makes very fast to calculate all the shield adj, so if George is going to change them again, we can calculate them in a few minutes
[18:12]	<Atarlost>	I hate the idea of transcendant races in general. I don't believe in that sort of thing.
[18:13]	<Atarlost>	But if I have them I'd like to prove them to be unfit for the great Darwinian game.
[18:14]	<Taben>	personally I could care less about the prophecy if it goes the way I would choose anyway so be it :D
[18:16]	<Taben>	but as it is going now I can't see myself choosing to help Domina and that isn't a choice to reasonable people
[18:16]	<Taben>	eer
[18:17]	<Taben>	I don't see helping Domina as being a reasonable choice yet
[18:17]	<Taben>	:D
[18:17]	<Azar_Wolf>	Problem is that we're given too much to look for, and too little to work with.
[18:18]	<d1gdug>	Azar_Wolf, what about the competition mods ?
[18:18]	<Azar_Wolf>	Moar plot is alwayse good, but when you end up with Questions>Answers...
[18:19]	<Azar_Wolf>	D: So soon to being done w/ all this work!
[18:19]	<Azar_Wolf>	How do we even know how transcendant they are?

[Prophet]

I think we need small episodes of plot missions/events at certain intervals.

Starting in Eridani, there should be something that spills out the choices the player has, to provide motivation towards a cause. The decision does not have to have any further effect on the player besides psychologically choosing a side. There should also be hints as to where more plot elements could be.

Rigel Aurelius - We meet Kate Morgental who returns in heretic but there is no mention of the quarantine, Domina, Oracus or any other plot element.

St. Katherine's - There is a fair bit of plot information snippets that can be picked up here and would be a great place to have a quasi mission, speaking with characters that will motivate the player to either change sides, reinforce their choice, or give them a chance to make a choice if none was made in Eridani. By the end of the mission there should be more hints for future plot elements to watch for.

Sanctuary - This is the next static system and could use some tenderness. It would be a great place to have a little plot boost.

Shortly after this we get drawn into the Ares war which is a more local matter that could easily be tied into the main plot. It does have historical significance with the original attack being orchestrated by either Domina or Oracus.
The Antarctica mission line is another opportunity to expand the plot. This mission chain could have more main plot elements added and some kinc of conclusion beyond saving/destroying the CSC. Without any psychological involvement with the characters these sorts of missions will get shaved down into which choice provides the best material reward rather than emotional/ethical descisions.

Elysium - There is obviously something planned for this and it would be great to see some plot here with easier access at some point.

Heretic - I love the new additions. I look forward to the next update as currently it is broken. The player is kept moving too much and focused on fighting Iocrym sentinels to be bothered by the plot.

The OoP is the obvious Antagonists with Oracus leading/controlling which should be more obvious. A recurring boss is sometimes cheesy, but is a great tool to inject plot into otherwise boring/monotonous runs. Best case scenario the player would have the opportunity to join the OoP as a gesture of opposition to Domina. This could be a great place to insert Prophecy where the player WILL fulfill prophecy for their own reasons based on decisions made throughout the game.


Domina and Oracus are described as Trascendent intelligences, not gods so the ability to see beyond time may not be available to them. I'm sure they could calculate odds and probabilities with complete mastery of mathematics but the human mind and emotions are much more complex and difficult to model. They cannot be too far beyond human abilities otherwise they would have no need or interest in us. We would be like paramecium to them. Domina is actively calling pilgrims to the center of the galaxy, implying she needs them. Having a Need shows there is something she doesn't have, thereby excluding her from omnipotent status and "transcendent" implies she came from something, she evolved from something. Human, neo-human, an ancient race? This is another one of those big plot questions.

[F50]

Important point about Apotamo's prophecy:
He doesn't say: You will cause the destruction of humanity.

He says: if you succeed (in your quest, as given to you by domina) you will cause the destruction of humanity. I took this as saying that: You must fail Domina.

Here in this post it says that human space is destroyed, not humanity itself (it may just migrage). This is slightly different from wha Apotamo says. This also makes sense given what we know about the sterilization device.


Certain parts of the plot makes it clear that either the Iocrym or the Sisters are unreliable. This means that all the in-game text about penetents and/or oracus is potentially unreliable. Essentially, the player doesn't know what to believe. I don't think this lack of information in necessarily bad, in fact the plot looks as if it was made to leave the player in the dark for now.

[Prophet]

1. Is all of the above plot info available to the player from game content alone?

Some of the content is difficult to encounter (mainly Huari) and alot pops up in such small pieces it is dismissed as relevant plot ( the small snippets in info terminals or convos at stations)
So my answer would be Yes, it is all available IF you know where to look and understand it's importance.

2. Is there other game content that conflicts with (or confuses) the plot summary above?

The Apotamo prophecy leads the player to believe that they will destroy humanity, either directly or indirectly. This is an excellent plot twist but is not elaborated on or even mentioned anywhere else, which reduces it to a confusing story element.
Having the AI in heretic explain that Domina is involved with the planned destruction of the quarantine zone is another example of this. IF there is something later on that explains these, great. As it stands now, it looks like Domina should be stopped.

3. Are there additional areas of plot that should be expanded in Part I?

More info regarding Domina and Oracus, maybe some mythologies or folk tales. This would help the player identify with one of the sides (Domina or Oracus) Some sort of historical account of a clash between the two, or a prophecy of the return of Oracus. I would assume that The Sisters and the OoP both have their respective religious texts, filled with accounts of persons with direct contact with their Deities. Historical accounts of divine intervention, explanations of their afterlife beliefs, and their prophecies. These would make wonderful ROMs for the player to find as loot and still propel the story.

4. Is there anything else about the main storyline that doesn't work for you?

Right now, the story sits in the background and is almost completely avoidable. The player has only one goal, "get to the core", and there is no good reason as to why, beyond the initial dream.
If the Iocrym are preparing to begin the sterilization, and Oracus is beginning to awaken, there should be some foreshadowing peppered in the rumours. Vague reports of odd behaviour, weird sightings and such.

While I believe the story should be unobtrusive to maintain the roguelike nature of the game, there is not enough information for the player to make an accurate assumption as to what is happening around them. We don't know who Oracus is or what he will do if he is Awakened so we don't really care. We don't know why Domina wants us to go to the core, but we do it anyway to get all the shiny toys.
We must assume that Domina is the Protagonist and Oracus is the antagonist although some story elements seem to contradict that.

[Aury]

we do it anyway to get all the shiny toys.

That about sums it up.

[schilcote]

Oh boy, another dreaming god about to awaken and destroy humanity. Let me get my nuke and my radio transmitter. Do I get a working gun this time? Those headless get annoying.

(You win the internets if you know what game I am referring to)

[Viperion]

I personally did not get the part about the Iocrym AI and the sisters because I didn't do the Sisters mission. Maybe Kate could suggest you visit the sisters somewhere in the text briefing after she gets on the Iocrym command center?

I think it is indeterminate whether Domina or Oracus sent the player on their journey, and I think this uncertainty adds a whole new dimension to the plot. I also have a hard time saying if all of the plot information is available to the player, because I have played through Transcendence probably 20 times and do have all the information, but I didn't discover, for example, the Huari missions until at least my 5th play-through. (And that by accident) So while I like how the story is revealed, I think it may not necessarily be the easiest for first-time players to grasp.

I also like how some things in the game are basically unexplained (I may have missed an explanation about the Gaians, but I don't think so.) I don't think the game needs to explain everything.

I'm going to applaud how you haven't tied everything into the main plot. The Arena, Korolov, the Sung/Huari conflict, I appreciate how it doesn't just all fit in somehow. Please, please resist the urge to do this. I would not suggest, for example, making the Charon Pirates anything other than Pirates. Don't tie them into Oracus somehow. Even a transcendent intelligence is not going to control everything.

I have some other semi-unrelated plot issues that I wonder about.

First, the only difference I see between letting the Antarctica live and killing it is if I kill it I get a Lamplighter. Maybe, with the new Heretic changes, if I let it live, it makes its way to the Heretic system and helps protect, say, the Ares or Commonwealth stations against the Sentinels? That way, there is a beneficial player tradeoff to the Antarctica mission - kill and get lamplighter, let live and get help in Heretic?

The Huari missions don't have any way in other than accidental discovery. For me, it was having a lot of Sung bases before seeing a Huari fortress and then seeing a fortress change from Red to Green after killing a citadel, and having not taken on any Huari. On about my 5th play-through. Could you somehow work into late a Korolov mission something about how Huari won't bother pirates unless they are slavers, too? Or maybe something in St. K's in one of the Arcology Quarters?

Overall, I like the fleshing out that the story has done in RC1.

[Aury]

certainly it would be silly to tie everything into the main plotline. somethings need to ne though, like the penitents. other stuff, like the charon, sure, they could have their own plot line to the side, but it would be kind of ridiculous to tie in all the stuff.

[Aury]

what if this turns out to be a very portal-esq scenario, where domina is glados and is promising cake at the core but its really just a platform going into a fire pit and the cake is a lie? ... random thought that popped into my head...

[Aeonic]

The game ends when you reach the core - which is a black hole. Domina just didn't like you.

[Retroactive]

Oh boy, another dreaming god about to awaken and destroy humanity. Let me get my nuke and my radio transmitter. Do I get a working gun this time? Those headless get annoying.

(You win the internets if you know what game I am referring to)

Well, the cedar box would sure make using the Krytryn launcher and QAC a lot more attractive.