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RPC
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What is the font that you used for the image AP :?
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Atarlost wrote:The modeling is fine, but your textures are primitive. They look okay where they're curved, but most look terribly 2d on flat surfaces.
 Yeah, I know I have texturing issues. The problem is that POV-Ray isn’t exactly the friendliest program out there for either adding a bitmapped texture or for exporting to a format that you could do so in another program. That largely leaves using texture, finishes, and normals that can be generated by its language. It tends to be kind of hit-and-miss, with a distinct lean toward the “miss” side of the equation. Give me something more specific to work from — which ships work better than others, why, and so forth — and I’ll gleefully attack that problem.
RPC wrote:What is the font that you used for the image AP :?
 It isn’t. Each character is a 5x5 block, either hand-drawn or copypasta’d. I was trying to save a the space a real font would use and still be legible, since any real font I tried was either eating up too much real estate or being reduced to indistinct little blobs. Besides, that’s not going to be the final draft of that, anyway. Besides the inevitable retexturing I’ll wind up doing, I’m still reworking Ironground and have plans for at least one more small faction — three, maybe four ships — that’s going to be seeing mission-related duty.
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Atarlost
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AssumedPseudonym wrote:
Atarlost wrote:The modeling is fine, but your textures are primitive. They look okay where they're curved, but most look terribly 2d on flat surfaces.
 Yeah, I know I have texturing issues. The problem is that POV-Ray isn’t exactly the friendliest program out there for either adding a bitmapped texture or for exporting to a format that you could do so in another program. That largely leaves using texture, finishes, and normals that can be generated by its language. It tends to be kind of hit-and-miss, with a distinct lean toward the “miss” side of the equation. Give me something more specific to work from — which ships work better than others, why, and so forth — and I’ll gleefully attack that problem.
Haetenaro and Ironguard are probably the least bad. Possibly AE, though all the textures look less bad on curved surfaces, especially those curved in multiple directions, and AE has nothing but curved surfaces.

The worst textures are the high saturation ones like Legion and the blue on Yatfwan and the obviously repeating ones like Beasts and Lambda use. The cyan streaks on the Lambdas call to mind Tron, which is very much not desirable when doing CGI and makes the Theta and Upsilon look a lot worse than they would with a more sedate color scheme.

Another thing that would help is to not use orthographic rendering. George doesn't and that makes orthographically rendered ships with parallel lines look wrong. Especially if they're large.
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 Okay. That’s helpful, and something I can work with.
Atarlost wrote:Haetenaro and Ironguard are probably the least bad. Possibly AE, though all the textures look less bad on curved surfaces, especially those curved in multiple directions, and AE has nothing but curved surfaces.
 That’s actually reassuring, since those are three of the ones I was most satisfied with.
Atarlost wrote:The worst textures are the high saturation ones like Legion and the blue on Yatfwan and the obviously repeating ones like Beasts and Lambda use.
 Legion is deliberately a high saturation texture. I might tone them down a bit, but they’re meant to be something you notice when they come onscreen (kind of like the orange of Ares). The Beasts actually don’t have a repeating texture, they have a repeating model. It’s not just a flat surface with a texture that look non-flat like the Marauder raid platform. Similar situation for the Lambda Rho.
Atarlost wrote:The cyan streaks on the Lambdas call to mind Tron, which is very much not desirable when doing CGI and makes the Theta and Upsilon look a lot worse than they would with a more sedate color scheme.
 Noted and taken under advisement. …By which I do not mean that I will promptly turn around and ignore it.
Atarlost wrote:Another thing that would help is to not use orthographic rendering. George doesn't and that makes orthographically rendered ships with parallel lines look wrong. Especially if they're large.
 That’s… actually sort of problematic. I’m actually not rendering orthographically. I was in the earliest incarnations of the ships (well before starting on The Backroads), and specifically turned that option off because I didn’t like the results. On the other hand, I do (finally) have something I can use to view and export the vanilla models with. I think it’s most noticeable on the Nomad, so if I use that and play with the camera settings until I get something that has about the same angles as the sprite, that should work.
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The Rho is rectangular. The lines on the central box are perfectly vertical, not even antaliased. I can see a pixel of convergence on other parts, but you have way too little foreshortening. That contributes to making things look flat, I think.
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 They aren’t quite vertical, there’s a two pixel difference between fore and aft. Definitely not enough, though, no argument there. I need to get the perspective straightened out and closer to what George’s is. The lack of antialiasing is almost certainly a result of conversion to GIF (since a JPEG was too big to post here); it’s readily visible in the source image.

EDIT: Well kack. Apparently the program I was using earlier this summer to view the vanilla models suddenly decided no SCN/COB import for you, the import plug-in I found for Blender won’t work on the current version, and the only online converter I could find spat out an error message. Even downloading an older version of Blender which comes with the import plug-in included only imports a collection of random shapes that in no way resemble the Nomad. And before anyone suggests it, I’ve already (unsuccessfully) tried running Caligari Truespace via WINE. I am now officially aggravated.

RE-EDIT: Apparently the camera George uses is closer than mine, with a wider FoV angle. With this in mind, I did the following:

 1) Devised Plan B.
 2) Approximated the Nomad.
 3) Fiddled with location/direction vectors.
 4) Succeeded.
 5) Gave Wings3D and Blender the finger. >.<

 My results aren’t perfect (nor did I expect them to be), but they’re a fair sight closer to vanilla. I think it should be get-away-with-able at this point.
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Atarlost
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Try png. Gif invalidates almost all feedback except the field of view.

The way gif constructs its palettes could cause any of the texture problems except possibly the Lambda and Beasts.
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 Good thought, that, and one I should have had myself, but no go. Just tried it. It’s still double the max size allowed for an attachment. When I get around to updating the image (which should be sometime over the weekend), I’ll probably put a PNG up elsewhere and embed it over here.
 To be honest, though, the GIF isn’t far enough off the source image to invalidate texture concerns. Not even close. The colors carried over with barely any issues at all. If they hadn’t, I probably would have gone the host/embed route from the start.
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 Update of the (insert random time period here): I’ve done a few minor texture adjustments, tweaked a model here and there, and added another faction for good measure. The FoV issue should be generally dealt with. Also, Ironground still has a rework in the works (especially since three of their ships are either used or are the basis of ships in other factions) and Ryudsew Iler may get a repaint (I’m not sure on that bright purple), so this still isn’t might not be the final draft of this. So without further ado, lemme try this again:

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[IMAGE MOVED TO FIRST POST]
 As before, everything is to scale as it would appear in game, with the Charon and Marauder ships used to provide a frame of reference.
Last edited by AssumedPseudonym on Wed Jan 07, 2015 12:09 pm, edited 6 times in total.
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Wow, that's a very impressive line up! very nice artwork.

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I am also surprised at how large the Avinity is, but I love your textures.
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Atarlost
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Lambda looks better except the Rho. Theta and Upsilon look best and are now my favorite non-AE ships. Tau, Sigma, and Psi are small enough to be a little indistinct. Kappa and Mu are harder edged but if there's a real reason like significantly different vintage they're okay. I think you should reconceptualize the Rho because I'm not sure it's salvageable. The tower looks like it belongs on a station not a ship and the box is just boxy and completely at odds with all other Lambda designs.

Beasts horizontal surfaces still look like waffles.

Trinity still looks like they're wearing dummy textures.

Ryudsew Iler also look untextured, though darker colors aren't as obvious about it as those Trinity uses. The cyan windows in particular look bad.

Legion still look oversaturated.

Yatfwan look loads better.

AE is still gorgeous except a couple models that I think just aren't to my taste.

Haetenaro still looks pretty good. The warship looks like it's not self-shadowing, but other models lie the Peacemaker, Rho, Avianity, and PI are.

Bane just look busy. The bright yellow bits don't look good, nor do the orange bits at the tail of the Entropy, but other than that they're okay.

Ironguard you say you're planning to redo anyways.

Self-illuminated windows seem to be a recurring problem. AE's and Lambda's (excxept the Mu, possibly because the normals are closer to the camera than on the others) look good and Beasts and don't seem to have them, but on most of the other factions they're the worst texture.
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 First off, I want to say thanks to people for the feedback on the graphics. It’s both appreciated and encouraging. With that out of the way, let me address Atarlost’s post, since it has some meat on it for me to sink my teeth into:
Atarlost wrote:Lambda looks better except the Rho. Theta and Upsilon look best and are now my favorite non-AE ships. Tau, Sigma, and Psi are small enough to be a little indistinct. Kappa and Mu are harder edged but if there's a real reason like significantly different vintage they're okay. I think you should reconceptualize the Rho because I'm not sure it's salvageable. The tower looks like it belongs on a station not a ship and the box is just boxy and completely at odds with all other Lambda designs.

Beasts horizontal surfaces still look like waffles.

Trinity still looks like they're wearing dummy textures.

Ryudsew Iler also look untextured, though darker colors aren't as obvious about it as those Trinity uses. The cyan windows in particular look bad.

Legion still look oversaturated.

Yatfwan look loads better.

AE is still gorgeous except a couple models that I think just aren't to my taste.

Haetenaro still looks pretty good. The warship looks like it's not self-shadowing, but other models lie the Peacemaker, Rho, Avianity, and PI are.

Bane just look busy. The bright yellow bits don't look good, nor do the orange bits at the tail of the Entropy, but other than that they're okay.

Ironguard you say you're planning to redo anyways.

Self-illuminated windows seem to be a recurring problem. AE's and Lambda's (excxept the Mu, possibly because the normals are closer to the camera than on the others) look good and Beasts and don't seem to have them, but on most of the other factions they're the worst texture.
 The Rho is likely going to be overhauled, yes. The more I look at it, the less I like it, and it was never really my favorite from the start. It’s going to keep a certain amount of asymmetry to its design, though. It’s also going to keep a sizable flat surface, unlike the rest of Lambda, because (also unlike the rest of Lambda) it’s a carrier. Regarding the Mu and Kappa, I think the big thing there is that they have distinct and prominent points on them, where most of the rest of the Lambda ships (except for the Sigma) don’t. The Psi and Sigma may get their stripes broadened a bit to make them more visible. I’m not sure the Upsilon won’t get tweaked/reworked/overhauled-from-the-ground-up — I keep looking at the thing and thinking it basically looks like an oversize AE Panther — but the Theta has been one of my favorites since I first coded it.

 The Beasts ships are modular constructions. The “waffle” appearance will make more sense with more context.

 Trinity actually look better closer up. The problem there is that… we’re not closer up.

 Ryudsew Iler is still something of a work in progress. They’ll remain dark, but they do need a little work.

 Legion will continue to look oversaturated, too. I know you hate it, but that one’s not getting changed.

 I think I’m happy with Yatfwan now. …Or at least for now.

 Avian Enterprises mostly works because of either its general lack of flat surfaces or its surface finish, I think. I may wind up using that on the other factions since everyone seems to agree that it’s working so well. (I’m curious which ones you don’t like, though.)

 I’m not sure what’s up with the Haetenaro Warship. It should shadow like anything else. I’ll investigate, but I think it may be the surface normal on the wings. I kinda got exotic with it.

 Bane sort of live up to their name. They take forever to render.

 Ironground’s texturing is unlikely to change, but the only three ships that are finalized are the Halberd, Naginata, and Tepoztopilli. Use those as a basis for the faction.

 Afus, I went with a fairly generic-ish white (with green trim because I’ve used just about every other color elsewhere already).

 Lit windows do cause me no end of trouble, you’re right on that. I have yet to actually come up with one that I’m honestly happy with — including AE and Lambda. Those are the ones I’m probably going to be taking inspiration from, though.

EDIT: Textures tweaked for Ryudsew Iler, Bane, Haetenaro, and significantly adjusted Trinity. Ironground redesign complete. Updated image posted.
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Atarlost
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I still don't like the waffling on the Beasts. Particularly on the wings of the Leviathan and to a lesser extend the Hydras where it's not parallel to the edges.

Ironguard textures are probably fine.

Trinity just don't look unified. The textures are still a little flat as well.

Ryudsew Iler may just be too dark to make out the textures without making them more extreme.

For the Rho what I'd suggest is
1) drop the criss cross pattern on the deck for actual deck markings.
2) make the deck not rectangular. An ellipse or elongated hexagon or irregular polygon like an actual carrier deck or anything to get rid of the squareness.
3) make the rest of the solid that the flight deck is the top of rounded.
4) make the vertical cylinder dome topped to match the horizontal cylinder.

On the Mu the thing that makes it look not quite a match are less the points of the cones than the hard line between the cylinders and the cones. The Kappa stands out less, but with them all together it's apparent it has more kindred with the Mu than the others. The Kappa just looks like it might be older. The Mu looks like a civilian freighter next to war ships.

The Afus look a bit flat. Somehow they manage to look flatter than George's stuff. I think that's probably a modeling thing more than a texture thing. Come to that the Yatfwan Denebola looks flat in the same way. Somehow George makes ships that are flatter than a lentil look like spheres or half cylinders.
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Atarlost wrote:Trinity just don't look unified.
 Neither is Trinity. They’re separate subsovereigns of the same faction. I’m sort of trying to represent that to some extent by giving them the same base texture, but different secondary textures.
Atarlost wrote:Ryudsew Iler may just be too dark to make out the textures without making them more extreme.
 Possibly, possibly not. I’ll see how they look in-game once they get sprited up and go from there.
Atarlost wrote:For the Rho what I'd suggest is
1) drop the criss cross pattern on the deck for actual deck markings.
2) make the deck not rectangular. An ellipse or elongated hexagon or irregular polygon like an actual carrier deck or anything to get rid of the squareness.
3) make the rest of the solid that the flight deck is the top of rounded.
4) make the vertical cylinder dome topped to match the horizontal cylinder.
 I’m more tempted to just scuttle the thing and start from scratch, honestly.
EDIT: …And so I did.
Atarlost wrote:On the Mu the thing that makes it look not quite a match are less the points of the cones than the hard line between the cylinders and the cones. The Kappa stands out less, but with them all together it's apparent it has more kindred with the Mu than the others. The Kappa just looks like it might be older.
 …Which is amusing, since the Kappa is the one I made most recently out of Lambda. I may call it a different vintage than the rest, though, whether newer or older.
Atarlost wrote:The Mu looks like a civilian freighter next to war ships.
 My work here is done. ^.~
Atarlost wrote:The Afus look a bit flat. Somehow they manage to look flatter than George's stuff. I think that's probably a modeling thing more than a texture thing. Come to that the Yatfwan Denebola looks flat in the same way. Somehow George makes ships that are flatter than a lentil look like spheres or half cylinders.
 The three Afus ships have to highly flattened cones as their base. They’re generally flat. The Denebola is flat, though, and there’s no getting around it. There probably isn’t enough room to stand up straight between the cockpit and the ring. As a gunship, though, it was designed with neither comfort nor long-range flights in mind.
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