CSC America

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JohnBWatson
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Shrike wrote:
It is a sad fact in vanilla Transcendence that Decker is too cheap/too poor/too poorly supplied to get the standard NAMI launcher. :P The brits use the NM900 pod...which is rubbish (XM900 is bugged against big stuff, and the NM900 has both a small ammo pool, and cannot swap away to the KM550 to do damage against large targets).
My understanding of this is that Brits only have one weapon slot, and thus have to use pods. That wouldn't explain why they haven't fitted some missile pods to Centurions, however.

Yeah, they're too big. I'd definitely love to see them turn up a few times though. Compared with the Ares ships they're not very good (mostly because of that annoying fleet reliance on buggy radius weapons), but they're still really awesome ships.
The omni missile launcher is fairly good when used right. They're able to defeat a Deimos in a 1 to 1 skirmish. I assume they'll be more substantial once something's done to make use of their 2 empty turret slots on the 'wings'.

That said, my understanding of Aquilae is that their primary purpose is defending CSCs against large groups of light ships, such as the patrols and squadrons that the player encounters in missions. The M2 would be very effective for this purpose without the radius glitches, and the Katanas' piercing ability makes them the ideal weapon for destroying the swarms of gunships that the Ares enjoy deploying against CSCs.
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Song
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JohnBWatson wrote:
Shrike wrote:
It is a sad fact in vanilla Transcendence that Decker is too cheap/too poor/too poorly supplied to get the standard NAMI launcher. :P The brits use the NM900 pod...which is rubbish (XM900 is bugged against big stuff, and the NM900 has both a small ammo pool, and cannot swap away to the KM550 to do damage against large targets).
My understanding of this is that Brits only have one weapon slot, and thus have to use pods. That wouldn't explain why they haven't fitted some missile pods to Centurions, however.
Possible. But this does raise the question of exactly how much booster and martian nori went into the designers of the darned thing.....although missile pods (VS more versatile and effective internal launchers) are the sort of bad idea that militaries tend to jump at (or bought to fix the fact that their heavy gunship is useless), building a state-of-the-art heavy gunship with fewer weapon slots than the EI500 is....an interesting decision. Although having some more missile pod options would go a long way towards making the britannia more flexible......and less prone to wiping out their own squad. A KM550 pod in particular.
That said, my understanding of Aquilae is that their primary purpose is defending CSCs against large groups of light ships, such as the patrols and squadrons that the player encounters in missions. The M2 would be very effective for this purpose without the radius glitches, and the Katanas' piercing ability makes them the ideal weapon for destroying the swarms of gunships that the Ares enjoy deploying against CSCs.
This is probably true. The downside being that the CSC defensive guns are the later-game equivelant of Turbolasers.....and can quite easy take on chasms and sandstorms (tundras tend to block incoming fire with their micronukes). And the britannia itself is optimised for swarm-clearing as well (the centurion seems optimised for dying very quickly). It may be that ingame, the fleet is just caught on the back foot....they optimised against small swarms of gunships (and the odd cometfall squad), and then the Ares started using Phobii and they haven't been able to adapt to that yet (except with Lamplighter).


...Speaking of which, Lamplighter would be an awesome endgame weapon for a few units to use, if the timeline allows it. The Aquila in particular since Decker mentions that it's being installed on them.
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JohnBWatson
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Shrike wrote:
Possible. But this does raise the question of exactly how much booster and martian nori went into the designers of the darned thing.....although missile pods (VS more versatile and effective internal launchers) are the sort of bad idea that militaries tend to jump at (or bought to fix the fact that their heavy gunship is useless),
Theoretically, missile pods could be re-loadable, just not at facilities that aren't purpose - built for doing so. There's got to be some reason weapon stations are willing to buy empty ones off you. They could also be quicker to swap out in - universe than reloading an internal launcher, as well as easier to maintain.
building a state-of-the-art heavy gunship with fewer weapon slots than the EI500 is....an interesting decision.
The versatility of the player-ships is somewhat strange no matter how you look at it. I tend to assume that the player is in possession of a heavily modified variant of their ship designed specifically for the pilgrimage, and that the ships seen in use by NPCs are off the line models that are less easy to alter the loadout of.

At the very least, this would explain the fact that AI ships of the same class seem to all use the same set of weapons, even in areas where they're vastly outclassed by the local threats, as well as why Korolov hasn't armed all of its ships with particle beam weapons or flensers for a fraction of what it costs to keep them escorted.

This is probably true. The downside being that the CSC defensive guns are the later-game equivelant of Turbolasers.....and can quite easy take on chasms and sandstorms (tundras tend to block incoming fire with their micronukes).
If you keep the Tev9s firing, micronukes are usually destroyed before they can detonate. It's a useful tactic with all omni weapons, and could probably keep CSCs alive quite a bit longer if they learned to use it.
And the britannia itself is optimised for swarm-clearing as well
They're certainly useful in the anti - Sandstorm mission, but that's partially a side effect of the AI's poor handling of gunships. I'd say their most likely role is as a strike fighter, given their ability to quickly destroy the defenses around Ares Communes, drawing off their fighters with long range weaponry beforehand.
(the centurion seems optimised for dying very quickly).
I'd say that this is more the AI than anything else. Their weapon's range is rather good, and their shields aren't awful. A well piloted squadron of them could probably clear out an Ares or Ranx Outpost.
It may be that ingame, the fleet is just caught on the back foot....they optimised against small swarms of gunships (and the odd cometfall squad), and then the Ares started using Phobii and they haven't been able to adapt to that yet (except with Lamplighter).
The Lamplighter is a rather poor weapon against the Phobos, as I learned somewhat painfully in my Phobos farming run. The Fleet's best weapon against the Ares capital ships is their Katanas, which out-range the lightning turrets, and the missile pods, which can be used for hit and run attacks.
...Speaking of which, Lamplighter would be an awesome endgame weapon for a few units to use, if the timeline allows it. The Aquila in particular since Decker mentions that it's being installed on them.
I agree. It could use a buff in both games, though. In Transcendence, to compare better with the shorter and better rewarding path of protecting the Antarctica. Once part 2 comes out, the Lamplighter will quickly go from a fairly good specialty weapon to outright obsolete, whereas the Gem of Sacrifice will remain a means of easily winning a difficult fight. In CSC America, to give the player a weapon that can serve as a counterpart to the APA, and wouldn't be a downgrade from the Katana or NAMI heavy in too many aspects.
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If the CSC's aren't buffed, it would be incredibly hard to take down any capital ship for the Ares.
Phobos: Will eat the CSC for breakfast, lunch, and dinner. Nothing in the CW's inventory can take it on except Aquilias.
Demois: A wolfpack will absolutely demolish the CSC and its fleet. Aquilias may have a chance.
Cometfalls: Bombardment from long range, CSC is too slow to do anything about it. Tev 9's are pretty good PDW's though. It would be possible to have a squad of Brittanias to destroy it.
Maybe CSC's should get some howitzers, or maybe a fusionfire, or Tritium guns. A lot of armors and shields late game have crazy amounts of resistance to particle and some are even immune. Remember that the fusionfire is "old" and howitzers are built by Human corporations.

According to lore though, Aquilias are experimental Cruisers. (That is why Aquilias aren't seen except during the Antarctica Mission) Therefore, it is reasonable to assume that there are maybe 30 prototypes in active duty.
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Atarlost
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This might be a good time to redo the fleet mix a bit.

The Brit is terrible. Pretty much everyone agrees it's terrible. At one time I discussed switching it to a volley launcher with Wolfy. The ship has something like 18 tubes on the model. 18 Broadswords at a volley is a respectable punch, or even just 9 for the dorsal tubes. Adjust fire rate to suit.

Currently the Brit flat out should not exist. It's in every way inferior to another ship made by the same manufacturer. The Wolfen is faster, more agile, capable of mounting the same or better armor (it can't fit P450, but if P350 or P300 existed it could mount them, and it can handle the P150 the Brit uses with plenty of room to spare) the same or better reactor, the same or better weapon suite, and is lighter and therefore must use less materials in construction. It probably also has less endurance, but it demonstrably has adequate endurance for the carrier strike role. Turning some of the Brit's excessive mass into more cargo than the Wolfen can get, giving it an ammo hog volley launcher, and filling the hold with ammo would give it a reason for existing. The other brit fixes are to give it a better than 8 firerate adjust or swivel or linked/secondary mounts so it can do things the Wolfen can't with the same weapon.

The Freyr and Manticore are also elite gunship candidates. Both manufacturers have factories in the Outer Realm and both are probably small enough to build in a distributed fashion. A CSC captain left to his or her own resources could procure them if he or she came up with the cash.

In any case I'd expect advanced fleet standard (P150 or new P300-350 hexphase, R5 or 9 deflector, katana, and NAMI or NAMI heavy launcher, cargo hold expansion, and maybe bushido enhancer if it fits the SN2500 energy budget (it will with the R5 but not the R9)) Wolfens to be available as an elite unit from the standard Pacific Defense pipeline.

Some special centurion variants would also add variety. A Ewar ship with stealth armor, a perception enhancing device (especially one powerful enough to penetrate a nebula), and a Heisenmachines with scramble cubes (or a cyberdeck that has the same effect) would be interesting. This could definitely be fitted to a Wolfen, but I think would look better on a Centurion with a dark gray paint job. If a warcraft/starcraft mage unit UI can be practically implemented multiple algorithm types could be implemented.

=====

If pilots have interpret their orders idiomatically it would be interesting to implement lightspeed lag, initiative, loyalty, and trust. The farther a pilot is from your CSC the longer the delay in acting on new orders. The more initiative the more likely they are to make decisions for themselves (and give orders to their subordinates). Loyalty would be built by giving orders in line with a pilot's personality and eroded by giving orders contrary to it. Trust would be a special flag acquired by getting a unit to high loyalty and initiative. A trusted subordinate is one who thinks along the same lines "you" do and can be controlled directly and act as a secondary control nexus for anyone below his rank.

This would allow personality management and micromanagement to coexist. Anyone within about 20-30 light seconds of a trusted unit can be micromanaged pretty well; maybe out to 60 light seconds. If orders are sufficiently contrary to their nature and they have low loyalty they might become insubordinate, but otherwise they'll be usable much like traditional RTS units. The same applies to your CAP since you can obviously be trusted to make the sorts of decisions you would make. You might start with two trusted wing leaders with contrary personalities (maybe one selected and one random that can't be the same as the one selected) and be able to lose the trust flag by losing loyalty. New trusted subordinates could be cultivated that better suit the player's style.
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JohnBWatson
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Atarlost wrote:This might be a good time to redo the fleet mix a bit.

The Brit is terrible. Pretty much everyone agrees it's terrible.
It can beat any Ares fighter in a 1 on 1 skirmish, and fights circles around its Ares counterpart, the Chasm. 3 of them can easily clear out the midsized Ares Commune, and fairly quickly. Furthermore, it can fend off a Xeno worldship, something that's outright impossible for an unescorted CSC.
At one time I discussed switching it to a volley launcher with Wolfy. The ship has something like 18 tubes on the model. 18 Broadswords at a volley is a respectable punch, or even just 9 for the dorsal tubes. Adjust fire rate to suit.
I don't see the benefit to that. It becomes worse at removing Ares defenses, and Broadswords are expensive to the point where throwing them around like that isn't practical.
Currently the Brit flat out should not exist. It's in every way inferior to another ship made by the same manufacturer. The Wolfen is faster, more agile, capable of mounting the same or better armor (it can't fit P450, but if P350 or P300 existed it could mount them, and it can handle the P150 the Brit uses with plenty of room to spare) the same or better reactor, the same or better weapon suite, and is lighter and therefore must use less materials in construction. It probably also has less endurance, but it demonstrably has adequate endurance for the carrier strike role. Turning some of the Brit's excessive mass into more cargo than the Wolfen can get, giving it an ammo hog volley launcher, and filling the hold with ammo would give it a reason for existing. The other brit fixes are to give it a better than 8 firerate adjust or swivel or linked/secondary mounts so it can do things the Wolfen can't with the same weapon.
I agree with you on the swivel, the Britannia is somewhat unwieldy with its primary weapon due to its size, and with a swivel mount the Fleet has a reason to use it over the Centurion X.

The ability to mount other things on the Wolfen is something I'm unsure of for the reason I mentioned earlier. A lot of things fall apart in - universe if other entities can upgrade their ships as easily as the player can.
The Freyr and Manticore are also elite gunship candidates. Both manufacturers have factories in the Outer Realm and both are probably small enough to build in a distributed fashion. A CSC captain left to his or her own resources could procure them if he or she came up with the cash.
I believe that's already being considered for the game. The Manticore, however, is something I'd disagree on. Given that the Fleet is outclassed at the moment, a slow ship, especially as a gunship, would be a liability.
Some special centurion variants would also add variety. A Ewar ship with stealth armor, a perception enhancing device (especially one powerful enough to penetrate a nebula), and a Heisenmachines with scramble cubes (or a cyberdeck that has the same effect) would be interesting. This could definitely be fitted to a Wolfen, but I think would look better on a Centurion with a dark gray paint job. If a warcraft/starcraft mage unit UI can be practically implemented multiple algorithm types could be implemented.
I've always thought that different Centurion variants would be cool. At the very least, the Centurion X could use some aesthetic differences to indicate its status, perhaps based off of the traditional US markings for squadron leaders.
If pilots have interpret their orders idiomatically it would be interesting to implement lightspeed lag, initiative, loyalty, and trust. The farther a pilot is from your CSC the longer the delay in acting on new orders.
Depending on how advanced communication technology is in - universe, this would be nice to see in Transcendence as well.
The more initiative the more likely they are to make decisions for themselves (and give orders to their subordinates). Loyalty would be built by giving orders in line with a pilot's personality and eroded by giving orders contrary to it. Trust would be a special flag acquired by getting a unit to high loyalty and initiative. A trusted subordinate is one who thinks along the same lines "you" do and can be controlled directly and act as a secondary control nexus for anyone below his rank.
I like the idea of a 'trusted' pilot being controllable. It'd make use of the Transcendence engine and give America another edge over traditional RTSes.
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Song
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JohnBWatson wrote:
Atarlost wrote:This might be a good time to redo the fleet mix a bit.

The Brit is terrible. Pretty much everyone agrees it's terrible.
It can beat any Ares fighter in a 1 on 1 skirmish, and fights circles around its Ares counterpart, the Chasm. 3 of them can easily clear out the midsized Ares Commune, and fairly quickly. Furthermore, it can fend off a Xeno worldship, something that's outright impossible for an unescorted CSC.
Xenos worry me from the perspective of a carrier taskforce. Sure, the britannia can kill them....but only with the starcannon, since the radius fragments usually won't even scratch a worldship because of the shape. Their AI lets them down a lot, but if they're launching from the carrier when a mothership is nearby, they have very little chance of being able to do much before losing their shields.....at which point they start to retreat. Worse still, the katana doesn't (I think, may be wrong here) outrange xenophobe weapons.....although on the other hand, xenos always aim at the closest targets. And literally nothing else in a normal taskforce (not counting the CSC Terra or Aquilas) can hurt them, unless there's a hidden docked Aurochs minelayer which happens to be carrying CRM500's (which suck).

The britannia is good for volley-firing its nukes, and bugging out before any real opposition appears. If it doesn't fire its nukes into its wingmen and severely damage them (I have seen a wing literally blow itself apart before)...against stations it's fantastic, and it handles the annoying little turrets quite nicely. The chasm...I think is more a counterpart to the Centurion/X (which is not apparently a fleet standard, but a Ringer refit of the vessel), but it's outfought while the britannia has missiles (because it's a small target). The ares positron gun is fantastic though, so if it's given time to land some hits, it will start knocking down the shield on the britannia (and forcing a retreat) very quickly indeed. Also, when launching from a CSC against enemies nearby, there's no cooldown on the AI: it will immediately fire its missiles, which will immediately detonate on the carrier, and do full damage because they're actually hitting the center of rotation (which would normally be impossible). It's not *much* damage, but it's certainly not helpful.
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Xenos worry me from the perspective of a carrier taskforce. Sure, the britannia can kill them....but only with the starcannon, since the radius fragments usually won't even scratch a worldship because of the shape. Their AI lets them down a lot, but if they're launching from the carrier when a mothership is nearby, they have very little chance of being able to do much before losing their shields.....at which point they start to retreat. Worse still, the katana doesn't (I think, may be wrong here) outrange xenophobe weapons.....although on the other hand, xenos always aim at the closest targets.
An AI that allows for squadron coordination would do wonders here. Imagine a group of gunships covering each other and setting up their attacks so that the most undamaged gunships could lead the wing and absorb most of the fire. It'd also help with the friendly fire issue.
Shrike wrote:The chasm...I think is more a counterpart to the Centurion/X (which is not apparently a fleet standard, but a Ringer refit of the vessel),
The 250MW reactor is designed for the Centurion X according to the current flavor text, so I think the Ringer refit canon might be outdated. Can I ask where you heard that?
Also, when launching from a CSC against enemies nearby, there's no cooldown on the AI: it will immediately fire its missiles, which will immediately detonate on the carrier, and do full damage because they're actually hitting the center of rotation (which would normally be impossible). It's not *much* damage, but it's certainly not helpful.
Yeah, that needs to be fixed. The current AI appears to work by correcting its aim if its last shot hit something friendly. Perhaps it could fire an invisible, non - damaging "dummy round" for its first shot against a target, and use that to determine its aim instead?
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Song
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JohnBWatson wrote:
Shrike wrote:The chasm...I think is more a counterpart to the Centurion/X (which is not apparently a fleet standard, but a Ringer refit of the vessel),
The 250MW reactor is designed for the Centurion X according to the current flavor text, so I think the Ringer refit canon might be outdated. Can I ask where you heard that?

IRC, so I'm not sure of the validity of it. It's the main argument I've heard against my "All the centurion/X's defected" argument for why the Britannia might exist.
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Shrike wrote: IRC, so I'm not sure of the validity of it. It's the main argument I've heard against my "All the centurion/X's defected" argument for why the Britannia might exist.
The Centurion/X is identical to the Britannia, with the exception of the missilepod. Rama pilots a Centurion/X, noted to be a Centurion with heavy modifications. The Britannia appears to be a production version of the Centurion/X refit.

Ship customization is a must: With the obsolescence of the stock Centurion, one won't get far without making their own Centurion/X variants.

For example, if Fleet intelligence says the Ares Base is inside a nebula, the player could expect short-range combat and equip heavy armor and plasma cannons. Likewise, if it isn't, one could substitute Mark I howitzers instead. If the pilots lack experience, the player could decide to fit omni weapons. If an operation requires heavy fire support, one could convert some Centurions to missileships.

Speaking of the Britannia, it would be nice to have a tech tree consisting of all the possible Fleet research projects, such that the player could direct research into perhaps improved missiles (Guided, nuclear-shaped charge, thermo:300 missile counterpart of APA) or R11 shield generators instead of Project 262 (Lamplighter) or the Britannia.
Shrike wrote: Also, when launching from a CSC against enemies nearby, there's no cooldown on the AI: it will immediately fire its missiles, which will immediately detonate on the carrier, and do full damage because they're actually hitting the center of rotation
Omni+ can ported over to fix this, though the damage is caused by direct impact, as radius weapons won't detonate on impact. In terms of lore, this can be explained as the tactical thermonukes detonating at >1 km distance - too far away to damage heavily shielded or armored ships.
Shrike wrote: The ares positron gun is fantastic though
All the better to salvage and used to refit Centurions.
Atarlost wrote:...
it would be interesting to implement lightspeed lag, initiative, loyalty, and trust. The farther a pilot is from your CSC the longer the delay in acting on new orders.
Canonically, there would be no noticeable lightspeed lag, since each realtime second is 60 ingame seconds, and the acceleration ratios set combat firmly in the realtime second range.
JohnBWatson wrote: The ability to mount other things on the Wolfen is something I'm unsure of for the reason I mentioned earlier. A lot of things fall apart in - universe if other entities can upgrade their ships as easily as the player can.
The advanced gunship loadouts used by pilgrims are useless when compared to a proper fleet, even though they likely cost the same amount. It is trivial to destroy a gunship, no matter how advanced it is.


As of now, the timeframe of CSC America seems to be set in the period after the destruction of Europa but before the desertion of the Antarctica. Any specific plot details that should be covered?
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JohnBWatson
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Shrike wrote: IRC, so I'm not sure of the validity of it. It's the main argument I've heard against my "All the centurion/X's defected" argument for why the Britannia might exist.
Centurion X gunships might be upgrades of the Centurion.

TVR wrote:
Speaking of the Britannia, it would be nice to have a tech tree consisting of all the possible Fleet research projects, such that the player could direct research into perhaps improved missiles (Guided, nuclear-shaped charge, thermo:300 missile counterpart of APA) or R11 shield generators instead of Project 262 (Lamplighter) or the Britannia.
I like this idea. It might be nice to be able to upgrade existing weapons as well. For example, adding a small amount of guidance to the M2, or improving the piercing ability of the Katana.
JohnBWatson wrote: The advanced gunship loadouts used by pilgrims are useless when compared to a proper fleet, even though they likely cost the same amount. It is trivial to destroy a gunship, no matter how advanced it is.
I don't follow. A player Wolfen armed with an omni Tev 9 can destroy many times its cost in stock(dual turbo + NAMI) Wolfens, and the cost of outfitting the freighters with decent armor and weaponry pales in comparison to the money that would be saved in cargo.
As of now, the timeframe of CSC America seems to be set in the period after the destruction of Europa but before the desertion of the Antarctica. Any specific plot details that should be covered?
The personality of the Antarctica's captain would be interesting to explore. It's strange that she managed to make captain despite the fact that she was willing to abandon the Fleet at the drop of a hat, perhaps there's a degree of corruption somewhere in the system(civilian or military) that would justify this.
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JohnBWatson wrote:
The personality of the Antarctica's captain would be interesting to explore. It's strange that she managed to make captain despite the fact that she was willing to abandon the Fleet at the drop of a hat, perhaps there's a degree of corruption somewhere in the system(civilian or military) that would justify this.
Reading her lines, it really wasn't at the drop of a hat. After a long campaign, she got given an offer that - to her - seemed legit enough to split with Decker and take a chance to end the war with the Ares. Exactly how that occurred we don't know.

But given that the Rogue Fleet is possibly larger than the real fleet at this point, there's definitely a serious morale issue.
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Shrike wrote:Reading her lines, it really wasn't at the drop of a hat. After a long campaign, she got given an offer that - to her - seemed legit enough to split with Decker and take a chance to end the war with the Ares. Exactly how that occurred we don't know.
The fact that she was the only captain to defect implies that she's somewhat less loyal to the cause than the rest of them.
But given that the Rogue Fleet is possibly larger than the real fleet at this point, there's definitely a serious morale issue.
I think that's just conservation of detail. Just like Charon doesn't canonically have the military might to overrun St. Kat's, the Rogue Fleet isn't canonically larger than the entire carrier task force. Still, I'd like to know how all of the Caches and other structures under Rogue Fleet control came into being. The small structures could have been constructed on the spot, the C - type stations could be captured commonwealth settlements, but the large structures armed with Katanas aren't seen anywhere else in the game.
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JohnBWatson wrote:
Shrike wrote:Reading her lines, it really wasn't at the drop of a hat. After a long campaign, she got given an offer that - to her - seemed legit enough to split with Decker and take a chance to end the war with the Ares. Exactly how that occurred we don't know.
The fact that she was the only captain to defect implies that she's somewhat less loyal to the cause than the rest of them.
But she wasn't. The rogue fleet is really big at this point. She just happens to be a carrier captain. Plus, in order to defect she'd either have to spend years setting it up....or else the entire crew decided to go along with her plan. One captain dropping the flag and trying to broker peace is unusual. An entire carrier crew going rogue indicates that people are very, very unhappy. All it would take is a reasonably sized contingent of the Antarctica's crew being loyal to Decker, and the ship would be consumed with infighting. If enough command people are in favor of staying with the fleet, they'd either need to be executed/imprisoned (hard to manage on a whim), or they'd probably try to relieve Helios or broadcast what was happening.

Of course, it could be that Helios had everyone rounded up and shot if they didn't agree with the plan.....but I don't think this would inspire much confidence in the rest of the crew. She doesn't even have the player killed if they do the "yup, gonna kill you" line.
But given that the Rogue Fleet is possibly larger than the real fleet at this point, there's definitely a serious morale issue.
I think that's just conservation of detail. Just like Charon doesn't canonically have the military might to overrun St. Kat's, the Rogue Fleet isn't canonically larger than the entire carrier task force. Still, I'd like to know how all of the Caches and other structures under Rogue Fleet control came into being. The small structures could have been constructed on the spot, the C - type stations could be captured commonwealth settlements, but the large structures armed with Katanas aren't seen anywhere else in the game.
I've thought about that before as well....the question is whether a "rogue fleet outpost" is a outpost of the rogue fleet, or a fleet outpost that has gone rogue. The larger ones are clearly based on the C-class station, but armored....it could be a ringer upgrade, or it could be that these were built as stations for squadrons of Centurions and the like to operate out of and they then went rogue.
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Shrike wrote: But she wasn't. The rogue fleet is really big at this point. She just happens to be a carrier captain.
My bad - wording error. Space - ranks confuse me to this day, what with even the grunts being 'captains'.
Plus, in order to defect she'd either have to spend years setting it up....or else the entire crew decided to go along with her plan.
Not necessarily. Her wing was deployed at the time, and we don't know for a fact that they all returned. The Antarctica is only fielding a single wing of Centurions when the pilgrim encounters her.
One captain dropping the flag and trying to broker peace is unusual. An entire carrier crew going rogue indicates that people are very, very unhappy. All it would take is a reasonably sized contingent of the Antarctica's crew being loyal to Decker, and the ship would be consumed with infighting.
That's something CSC America would have to address. Communication in Transcendence is established as unreliable, and Fleet crew members tend to be unaware of higher orders(the Point Juno staff will gladly install a prototype weapon on your vessel). A Red October gambit isn't impossible.
If enough command people are in favor of staying with the fleet, they'd either need to be executed/imprisoned (hard to manage on a whim), or they'd probably try to relieve Helios or broadcast what was happening.
The Fleet is known to have a problem with traitors outside of the Rogue Fleet, as shown by the mission in which a Superfreighter makes a suicide run on a CSC(We know that this is ideological in nature due to the fact that the Rogue Fleet's modus operandi is piracy, not terrorism, and they have no interest in aiding the Ares war effort, being hostile to them). The measures that Fleet CSCs use to counteract this and prevent saboteurs from revealing their position could easily be repurposed by the Antarctica.
Of course, it could be that Helios had everyone rounded up and shot if they didn't agree with the plan.....but I don't think this would inspire much confidence in the rest of the crew. She doesn't even have the player killed if they do the "yup, gonna kill you" line.
That's fairly hard to explain no matter how its examined. She'll boot the player into space and immediately open fire with lethal intent, but she won't just imprison them?

My personal canon here is that she's gone a bit off the edge due to the war, and having to bear the stress of having the lives of an entire carrier crew, implied to be thousands of people, depend on her judgement gave her a messiah complex. It'd certainly explain a lot about her decision making and the way she communicates.
I've thought about that before as well....the question is whether a "rogue fleet outpost" is a outpost of the rogue fleet, or a fleet outpost that has gone rogue. The larger ones are clearly based on the C-class station, but armored....it could be a ringer upgrade, or it could be that these were built as stations for squadrons of Centurions and the like to operate out of and they then went rogue.
It's certainly strange that we don't see a single station under the command of the Fleet proper, save for Point Juno.
Last edited by JohnBWatson on Thu Jan 15, 2015 1:24 am, edited 3 times in total.
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