CSC America

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TVR
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JohnBWatson wrote: A player Wolfen armed with an omni Tev 9 can destroy many times its cost in stock(dual turbo + NAMI) Wolfens
A surprisingly common misconception.

For the price of one omni TeV9 (60000), one could have 10 NAMI missile launchers, 10 dual turbolasers, and 300 Stilettos (10000 + 35000 + 15000). For each Gusoku segment (8000), one could have 10 heavy plasteel segments. Also consider an SN2500 reactor (60000), to 10 Nova-25 (30000)

1x Wolfen (~3000)
1x Omni-TeV9 (60000)
4x Gusoku segment (32000)
1x SN2500 (60000)
= 155000

10x Wolfen (~30000)
10x NAMI launcher (10000)
10x Dual Turbolaser (35000)
300x KM500 Stiletto (15000)
40x Heavy Plasteel segment (32000)
10x Nova-25 (30000)
= 152000

Rather than simply apply Lanchester's Square Law of Combat, I encourage everyone to directly simulate a battle between one Wolfen armed with the former vs. ten armed with the latter. The results are quite interesting!
Shrike wrote: Reading her lines, it really wasn't at the drop of a hat. After a long campaign, she got given an offer that - to her - seemed legit enough to split with Decker and take a chance to end the war with the Ares. Exactly how that occurred we don't know.
Consider the alternatives:
A) Continue (losing) the war of attrition with the Ares, hoping that the Lamplighter & Britannia change that. (Decker Plan A)
B) Mass the entire fleet for a suicide nuking run at Ares Prime. (Decker Plan B)
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catfighter
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It's certainly strange that we don't see a single station under the command of the Fleet proper, save for Point Juno.
I don't think it's strange at all. The fleet would want all of its resources to be mobile so it can strike quickly before the enemy has time to respond or so it can rush to the defense of a station under siege. If used correctly, carriers could probably completely replace the need for stations. One still wonders about ship manufacture though. It would likely be a lot more efficient in a stationary location.

And speaking of that, would the America have ship-building capabilities? New recruits might join if they hear about the America's successful runs in Ares space, and they'll need something to fly.
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Arkheias
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The Omni-Tev9 has longer range than the dual turbolasers and is omni, thus the dual turbolasers don't count if the super-wolfen keeps its distance, which it can do since it has the same speed as the weaker wolfens and only has to travel in a straight line to escape, whereas the weaker ones have to maneuver to keep from blocking each others shots and can thus never catch up while attacking. If they follow the wolfen perfectly so that it can't escape (i.e. in a straight line), then only the front wolfen can attack, in which case the super-wolfen gets to fire two shots for every one missile.

If the weaker wolfens get initiative, it might be a fair fight. If the super-wolfen gets initiative it should always win.

Also, the described super-wolfen could get by with a 50MW reactor, use the saved money for four barrels of reflective armor coatings and use 2 ICX missile defense turret and it would still be cheaper

Seriously, just 640 credits worth of armor coatings and all laser weapons immediately become worse than useless.

Also, I just checked and the Gusoku armor is 4000 per segment, not 8000. So I got rid of the overpowered reactor, added some ICX devices and redid your calculations.

1x Wolfen (~3000)
1x Omni-TeV9 (60000)
4x Gusoku segment (16000)
4x barrels of reflective armor coating (640)
2x ICX missile defense turrets (10000) [the wiki says 8000 per but the .xml says 5000]
1x targeting program ROM (300)
1x Nova-50 (5500)
= 95440

6x Wolfen (~18000)
6x NAMI launcher (6000)
6x Dual Turbolaser (21000)
264x KM500 Stiletto (13200) [44 per ship]
24x Heavy Plasteel segment (19200)
6x Nova-25 (18000)
= 95400

So the lasers are all reflected, 2/3 of the missiles are shot down (ICX fires twice as fast and is assumed to target different missiles), and the other third could theoretically be shot down by the omni tev-9. So if the super wolfen stands still and acts like a target, it can ignore the shots from four ships due to the missile defense and theoretically block the shots of the other two using the omni-tev-9 indefinitely (or until the weaker wolfens run out of ammo). If instead it focuses on destroying one of them, it can do so in ideally 7 shots to the same location (assume 20 due to missing, alternating between two segments and accidentally targeting other ships because the pilot got bored). Since every other shot blocks a missile it takes twice as many shots, but since the missile launcher fires half as often, the ignored wolfen gets roughly 20 free shots before you destroy your target and get to focus on it. In theory these would be the only shots you get hit by in the entire fight and they would not be enough to get past a single segment of Gusoku armor. By the time you destroy the second ship, the others will be almost out of ammo.

This does not take into account the time it takes for your enemies to realize that their laser shots are being reflected back at them.

The missile defense turrets would still be useful against actual enemies and the armor coatings could be swapped out at a relatively low cost since you're dealing with a single badass ship.
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Atarlost
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A ship that can only win by running away will never accomplish its objectives if its enemies choose not to chase it.
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catfighter
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The enemy AIs are easy to exploit, though, and people do seem to be rather fond of chasing down apparently defenseless targets...
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Arkheias
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Atarlost wrote:A ship that can only win by running away will never accomplish its objectives if its enemies choose not to chase it.
Guerrilla warfare. If your enemies don't even chase you down then that just saves you half the trouble.
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sun1404
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You seriously overestimate the ICX. Given ten, or just four, ships firing missiles at you you'll get hit with at least half the missiles. And Stilettos are still dangerous to Gusoku.

Also guerrilla warfare is a defensive strategy. An attacking force cannot employ it with success. And if you try hit-and-run, You'll surely get hit by missiles.
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JohnBWatson
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Rather than simply apply Lanchester's Square Law of Combat, I encourage everyone to directly simulate a battle between one Wolfen armed with the former vs. ten armed with the latter. The results are quite interesting!
There are factors you did not take into account here. The first is logistical. A fleet of ships will not be able to reliably mass itself against the single gunship, and will present higher refueling and maintenance costs over the long term. Further, unless the faction fielding them is the Luminous or the Ares, the average pilot quality will be greater if fewer gunships are being fielded. The second factor is the fact that the stock ships that the player encounters are not always in armies, with many appearing as station guards or freelance escorts for Korolov. These people are individuals with salaries that presumable care about self preservation, and thus have an incentive to upgrade their ships if it is possible for them to do so. The third factor is that many ships seen in game are cargo vessels, which by nature do not attack in groups, and carry the vast majority of their value as cargo(For example, an EI700 typically carries cargo worth significantly more than its equipment). Were it possible for everyone to easily refit their ships like the player, the light armament of so many of these freighters would, at the very least, be replaced with some salvaged turbolasers.
Consider the alternatives:
A) Continue (losing) the war of attrition with the Ares, hoping that the Lamplighter & Britannia change that. (Decker Plan A)
B) Mass the entire fleet for a suicide nuking run at Ares Prime. (Decker Plan B)
Where did you get your plan B from? I see it nowhere in game.

I don't think it's strange at all. The fleet would want all of its resources to be mobile so it can strike quickly before the enemy has time to respond or so it can rush to the defense of a station under siege. If used correctly, carriers could probably completely replace the need for stations.
That still leaves the question of how the stations got built.
One still wonders about ship manufacture though. It would likely be a lot more efficient in a stationary location.
I think that's explained in CC.
And speaking of that, would the America have ship-building capabilities? New recruits might join if they hear about the America's successful runs in Ares space, and they'll need something to fly.
How would they get there in the first place? :wink:

A ship that can only win by running away will never accomplish its objectives if its enemies choose not to chase it.
A ship that can outrange its enemies will not have to run away unless its enemies chase it, sacrificing their own ability to complete objectives. The worst case scenario is a stalemate.

You seriously overestimate the ICX. Given ten, or just four, ships firing missiles at you you'll get hit with at least half the missiles. And Stilettos are still dangerous to Gusoku.
The ICX is ineffective due to a programming error with target acquisition.
Also guerrilla warfare is a defensive strategy. An attacking force cannot employ it with success.
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Last edited by JohnBWatson on Thu Jan 15, 2015 8:31 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Song
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We seem to be a little off-track here. Also, you quoted me for something I didn't say. At all. TVR did. Ask them about it, not me. But we should probably get back to the subject of the actual RTS mechanics and gameplay.


One thing that interests me from a mechanics standpoint is the role of the map view. Transcendence has quite a good system for maps, which would be interesting to see expanded into a strategic overview screen. Being able to scroll around the system in the map and see known enemy bases, mission objectives, and current fleet positions would be useful. Certainly, something is needed.....the star systems ingame are simply too big for the map to not be used extensively. It would need to have a lot of improvements though, starting with being able to show multiple ships at once (either with graphics, or with icons). This could turn out for the better though: the Transcendence map system could take back a few of the smaller improvements (eg. Being able to see your wingmen/autons last known position on the map if you've ordered them to hold position).

The problem is that the map view does not have pretty graphics. So having a suitable balance between being in the map view and being able to command multiple things at once VS tunnel-visioning in fancy-explosions view to ensure the victory of a single squad or unit is going to be tricky. There's a lot of risk of getting stuck in one view and either not commanding a unit effectively, or not commanding the whole fleet under your control effectively because you're not looking at the wider picture.
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JohnBWatson
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Shrike wrote: Also, you quoted me for something I didn't say. At all. TVR did. Ask them about it, not me. But we should probably get back to the subject of the actual RTS mechanics and gameplay.
Ah, my bad. Organizing quote tags gets increasingly difficult as posts get longer.
One thing that interests me from a mechanics standpoint is the role of the map view. Transcendence has quite a good system for maps, which would be interesting to see expanded into a strategic overview screen. Being able to scroll around the system in the map and see known enemy bases, mission objectives, and current fleet positions would be useful.
I like the idea of a variant of the Transcendence map being used.
It would need to have a lot of improvements though, starting with being able to show multiple ships at once (either with graphics, or with icons).
There would likely be enough ships that simply using small green dots, perhaps with larger dots for larger ships, would be the best way to go about that.
The problem is that the map view does not have pretty graphics. So having a suitable balance between being in the map view and being able to command multiple things at once VS tunnel-visioning in fancy-explosions view to ensure the victory of a single squad or unit is going to be tricky. There's a lot of risk of getting stuck in one view and either not commanding a unit effectively, or not commanding the whole fleet under your control effectively because you're not looking at the wider picture.
Many traditional RTS games have a minimap that allows the player to quickly sort out what's going on around the battlefield. A 'planning mode' where the game is paused but orders can be given would also be helpful.
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Song
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JohnBWatson wrote:
It would need to have a lot of improvements though, starting with being able to show multiple ships at once (either with graphics, or with icons).
There would likely be enough ships that simply using small green dots, perhaps with larger dots for larger ships, would be the best way to go about that.
The problem is that the map view does not have pretty graphics. So having a suitable balance between being in the map view and being able to command multiple things at once VS tunnel-visioning in fancy-explosions view to ensure the victory of a single squad or unit is going to be tricky. There's a lot of risk of getting stuck in one view and either not commanding a unit effectively, or not commanding the whole fleet under your control effectively because you're not looking at the wider picture.
Many traditional RTS games have a minimap that allows the player to quickly sort out what's going on around the battlefield. A 'planning mode' where the game is paused but orders can be given would also be helpful.

Icons work, but they would need to enable distinguishing of units effectively.......perhaps either a set of icons, labels, and/or being able to select from a set of icons when launching a wing/formation?

A minimap is hard because of the scale involved, which is why I think the map view may be tricky to balance. Possibly a communications feed + alert tones for various actions (unit engagin, unit under attack, carrier under attack, etc) could help.

The system used by the Gem of Contrition could be adapted into a "live pause" system where you can queue up orders and then resume the game after a while (or after a certain period of time, depending on whether talking is a free action).
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JohnBWatson
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Shrike wrote:
Icons work, but they would need to enable distinguishing of units effectively.......perhaps either a set of icons, labels, and/or being able to select from a set of icons when launching a wing/formation?
Not sure how that would work, given how little we know about how we'll be commanding our units. It's stated that pilots will persist across missions, so it's likely we'll be commanding individual units rather than squadrons(though we'll probably be able to group them together, like in any other RTS).
A minimap is hard because of the scale involved, which is why I think the map view may be tricky to balance. Possibly a communications feed + alert tones for various actions (unit engagin, unit under attack, carrier under attack, etc) could help.
I like this. Similar to C&C Generals?
The system used by the Gem of Contrition could be adapted into a "live pause" system where you can queue up orders and then resume the game after a while (or after a certain period of time, depending on whether talking is a free action).
Time is sped up 60x in game(IIRC), so I'd assume that giving orders should be a free action. 1/60th of the time it takes to issue a command in real time is practically nothing, so it makes sense to let the player do so while paused.

Give me a second and I'll post a mockup of a map.
Last edited by JohnBWatson on Fri Jan 16, 2015 1:12 am, edited 1 time in total.
JohnBWatson
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Map mockup attached. This look about right? I'm assuming 'fog of war' or a similar mechanism will be present, and showing the ships' scanner range. Large dots are capital ships, small dots are gunships, the plus shape is a CSC. Clicking a point on the map could bring the camera to that location.
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Song
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Looks good to me. A label on each formation would also help, especially if we're able to set it ourselves. But apart from that, basically what I had in mind. Depending on how advanced the sensor mechanic gets, it would be interesting to have stations be detected in phases: Eg: first you know it's a station, then you know if it's hostile/friendly/neutral (based on transmissions from it/IFF/whatever), then you know what it is and roughly what the defenses are. Each phase/layer of ID would require either better scanners for the same range, or a closer range to target for the same scanner.

As for ships, it would basically be Unidentified Target (ala the missions we get from CSCs), then knowing how big it is (might be the same layer as original ID, but knowing if it's one big thing or lots of little things takes a better scan), then what it actually is.

Passive and active scanning would also be interesting, but complex to put in....turning sensors to full-active would give excellent coverage for your full sensor range....but your presence would be broadcast out to well beyond that range, making it a risky tactic to use. If mouse-over is implemented then mousing over the command to change scanner mode would give the scanning and detection ranges of the active mode before you turn it on. otherwise, it might need a permanent dotted-ring indicator or something, or a separate key to toggle the view. This gets complex fast, unfortunately.
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JohnBWatson
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Shrike wrote:Looks good to me. A label on each formation would also help, especially if we're able to set it ourselves. But apart from that, basically what I had in mind.
How would 'formations' work in your view? In every RTS I've ever played, units have functioned individually, with unit groupings simply being keybinds.

It seems like something that would be interesting to have, but I'm not sure how it would work, or whether it would take too much control away from the player.
Depending on how advanced the sensor mechanic gets, it would be interesting to have stations be detected in phases: Eg: first you know it's a station, then you know if it's hostile/friendly/neutral (based on transmissions from it/IFF/whatever), then you know what it is and roughly what the defenses are. Each phase/layer of ID would require either better scanners for the same range, or a closer range to target for the same scanner.

As for ships, it would basically be Unidentified Target (ala the missions we get from CSCs), then knowing how big it is (might be the same layer as original ID, but knowing if it's one big thing or lots of little things takes a better scan), then what it actually is.
That'd be nice to have in the vanilla game as well.
Last edited by JohnBWatson on Fri Jan 16, 2015 3:02 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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