CSC America: Athena class gunship

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CSC America will introduce a couple of new Fleet ship classes, and I'd like to solicit some ideas for one of them.

The top of the tech tree is going to be the Athena class. It's an experimental ship (low production numbers) and is designed to be better than the Britannia. I'd love to hear some ideas for what it might be like (in terms of weapons, capabilities, etc.).

Some constraints/ideas:

* The Athena was rushed into production after the recent Ares attacks, so it probably brings together existing weapons/devices rather than starting from scratch.

* CSC America takes place before the Lamplighter was conceived, so the Athena should not have anti-matter weapons (or at least, they can't be better than a Lamplighter).

* I'd like the Athena to be more powerful than a Britannia against the Ares, but perhaps it should have some glaring weakness.

* Since the Athena is the top of the tech tree, it should be desirable to the player--that is, it needs to be emotionally cool in addition to having decent stats.

I'd love to hear ideas.
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A missileship would fit fairly well into the Fleet, and could provide a means of taking on groups of capital ships in the late game.

I'd arm it with a NAMI heavy loaded with tracking thermo missiles that have about 1.2x the range of a Katana and slightly higher damage than the M5, though with less of a damage radius. For closer range engagements, an omnidirectional dual Tev9 would work well. If possible, give it the ability to switch between these weapons rather than using both simultaneously.

If the use of an ammo compatible with other launchers would cause balance issues, the missile launcher could be replaced by a tracking energy weapon of similar stats, or by another launcher.

It could use the same armor as the Aquila, and an 'R10' shield generator with high ion and positron resist. In addition, it should be able to almost keep pace with a Phobos.
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One thing that would make the ship fun to fight with is use weapons in ways standard playerships cannot. For example, wide swivel or omni, or linked-fire weapon slots.

It should be at least as fast as the Wolfen, if it is simply a fighter craft (instead of a destroyer or bigger).

It should not be bigger than the Sapphire or Wolfen unless it needs to be big enough to carry a bunch of missiles or needs space to put extra linked-fire weapons. Large size for no good reason is a liability unless your purpose is to tank hits meant for other ships.

It needs defenses that can stand up to the Ares positron cannon, whether it is a shield that strongly resists ion or positron damage or simply uses very tough heavy armor akin to worldship plate or better.

Its defenses need to be tough enough to survive one hit from the plasma archcannon most of the time.

If ship is meant to counter capitals, it needs WMD and/or any weapon with maximum fire rate. Plasma cannon is good for this. Actually, plasma cannon outperforms Lamplighter against everything except Iocrym Command Ship. Lucifers used by Britannias do not count because large objects (mostly) ignore small radius effects due to flawed collision detection.

Nothing screams top-of-the-line than level 10 items, especially tier 4+ weapons (i.e., positron/plasma or better), but that would probably be limited to the main gun, and could cost too much power, especially if they do not have 1 GW.
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JohnBWatson wrote:A missileship would fit fairly well into the Fleet, and could provide a means of taking on groups of capital ships in the late game.

I'd arm it with a NAMI heavy loaded with tracking thermo missiles that have about 1.2x the range of a Katana and slightly higher damage than the M5, though with less of a damage radius.
Keep in mind that if that's using radius fragments, it's not going to do damage if it hits a large ship...unless it hits very close to the center of mass (eg: into the side of a phobos, or between the 'arms' of a CSC). Balance will also be an issue: the M5 is a level 10 weapon (I think), and in order to have more damage *and* be tracking it would need a very low rate of fire.


Personally, I'd make it a missileship and outfit it with the NAMI heavy firing the M2, or a tracking varient thereof. Not M5's: those should have absurd power but require a risky strategy to get close enough to hit with them. The M2 also suffers from radius bugs, but it's still an effective weapon for the fleet, and they don't need to spend time developing anything new for them. The weakness should be against close-range attackers: if this thing only has light (or no) short-range defenses and its missiles have failsafes, then it's going to have problems against tundras that stick to it like glue and spam micronukes.



-----------------

In terms of primary gunship weapons....the guns have to be secondary to the missile payload. So katana and exotic guns are probably out. Maybe a dual TeV-9?
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Shrike wrote:In terms of primary gunship weapons....the guns have to be secondary to the missile payload. So katana and exotic guns are probably out. Maybe a dual TeV-9?
No, particle damage is obsolete. Xenophobes and Gaians are completely immune, and everyone and their dog, including Ares, resists particle damage too much. This is a top-of-the-line possibly elite/super prototype ship, not a Centurion++. Katana and exotic guns is what I expect. I would like something like a Kytryn blaster or something similar as my main gun.
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PM wrote:One thing that would make the ship fun to fight with is use weapons in ways standard playerships cannot. For example, wide swivel or omni, or linked-fire weapon slots.
Interesting. That's what appeals to me about commanding the Aquila.
It should be at least as fast as the Wolfen, if it is simply a fighter craft (instead of a destroyer or bigger).
It is a gunship, which has a rather wide meaning in the Transcendence universe. Gunships can be anything from pure fighters to attack craft to outright bombers.
It should not be bigger than the Sapphire or Wolfen unless it needs to be big enough to carry a bunch of missiles or needs space to put extra linked-fire weapons. Large size for no good reason is a liability unless your purpose is to tank hits meant for other ships.
The Wolfen and Sapphire are on the extreme low end of ship size, and smaller than anything fielded by the fleet. While a gunship shouldn't be too big, the ship that ends off the tech tree ought to look impressive. I'd say the Centurion's size should be an absolute minimum, with the Britannia's size being about right.
It needs defenses that can stand up to the Ares positron cannon, whether it is a shield that strongly resists ion or positron damage or simply uses very tough heavy armor akin to worldship plate or better.
I most certainly agree. Perhaps a shield that resists the extra shield damage of the APC, or some manner of unique armor.
Its defenses need to be tough enough to survive one hit from the plasma archcannon most of the time.
Indeed.
If ship is meant to counter capitals, it needs WMD and/or any weapon with maximum fire rate. Plasma cannon is good for this. Actually, plasma cannon outperforms Lamplighter against everything except Iocrym Command Ship.
Short range weapons are a death sentence against the Ares Capital ships, which block projectiles with their turrets and have massive DPS from their front cannons.

Keep in mind that if that's using radius fragments, it's not going to do damage if it hits a large ship...unless it hits very close to the center of mass (eg: into the side of a phobos, or between the 'arms' of a CSC). Balance will also be an issue: the M5 is a level 10 weapon (I think), and in order to have more damage *and* be tracking it would need a very low rate of fire.
I'd prefer it rely mainly on a flat impact damage, given that it wouldn't be intended as a swarm buster(that's what the M2 is for).
Personally, I'd make it a missileship and outfit it with the NAMI heavy firing the M2, or a tracking varient thereof. Not M5's: those should have absurd power but require a risky strategy to get close enough to hit with them. The M2 also suffers from radius bugs, but it's still an effective weapon for the fleet, and they don't need to spend time developing anything new for them. The weakness should be against close-range attackers: if this thing only has light (or no) short-range defenses and its missiles have failsafes, then it's going to have problems against tundras that stick to it like glue and spam micronukes.
That creates a gunship with many weaknesses but few strengths. If it can't be a fighter and it can't stay reasonably safe on bombing runs(keep in mind that this is an expensive top - tier ship, and the Fleet doesn't even consider Centurions all that expendable) it's effectively without any real use.
In terms of primary gunship weapons....the guns have to be secondary to the missile payload. So katana and exotic guns are probably out. Maybe a dual TeV-9?
I agree. If not outright omnidirectional, it should have a 30 degree swivel. That's enough to handle any Ares gunship short of a Chasm, and those are large and rare enough that missiles can handle them well.

Alternatively, two separate omnidirectional Tev9s would have a similar effect but look quite a bit cooler.

No, particle damage is obsolete. Xenophobes and Gaians are completely immune, and everyone and their dog, including Ares, resists particle damage too much. This is a top-of-the-line possibly elite/super prototype ship, not a Centurion++. Katana and exotic guns is what I expect. I would like something like a Kytryn blaster or something similar as my main gun.
Xenophobe Worldships could easily be destroyed by missile fire, and Brits can take on their lesser ships without a problem. Gaian Processors are capital ships with no long range attack capability, and thus ideal targets for the missiles.

The threats a missileship would face at close range are Sandstorms and Tundras, both of which are vulnerable enough to Tev9s. In addition, endgame ships would likely operate with escorts.
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The Commonwealth is carrier focused, rather than dreadnought focused.

The Commonwealth is running low on pilots -- too many Britannias have been shot down implementing their standard

The Commonwealth is tolerant of neo-humans, or virtual humans, such as the citizens of Eternity Port, for instance.

Is it a surprise then that they introduced the "Athena" class of ships? Just consider the name behind the class, "Athena" being the deity of "wisdom, courage, inspiration, civilization, law and justice, strategic war, mathematics, strength, strategy, the arts, crafts, and skill".

The Athena class of ships doesn't have living quarters for a crew, because it doesn't need a living crew. To the layman's eye, its remotely controlled but the better word would be..."virtually" controlled.

An Aquila class ship [or some other suitable class] can always be found some distance behind a group of Athenas. It is on this Aquila that the virtual crews of that group of Athenas reside. Crews who made the ultimate soldier's sacrifice: they sacrificed their bodies, so that they were nothing more than a human consciousness stored on shard.

You see, virtcons (virtual consciousnesses) are easier to transmit accurately over a distance than a full human consciousness that is still integrating data from its real environment -- there is just less information to transmit. Virtcon crews truly *inhabit* their ships -- various ship sensors almost take the place of what would have been their real senses, and pain is an important sense: pain allows one to flinch faster than they can think.

This way, Athenas are more than the simple remote controlled (by actual human) ships that had been tested before. Their crews could grow and learn to use their disposable bodies in ways that actual humans simply could not. Their crews could execute tactics with cohesion that real human crews simply could not match. Their crews could integrate ship sensor information in a way that real human crews, overwhelmed by blinking lights and blaring alarms simply could not.

If you destroy an Athena, its crew could still be transferred to work with another Athena. The part of the crew that survived, that is. Some data loss during emergency transfer back to the host Aquila during destruction is inevitable, although the Fleet is becoming better and better at recovering crews. There is still no cure for a consciousness that simply seems to go mad...sick from the pain of battle, or even worse, sick from pure rage. Sometimes, it seemed impossible to fuse together a virtcon who had split into two little pieces...each one broken because it was missing the other, but still somehow convinced that it was not the other. Sometimes, it seemed impossible to de-fuse two (or more) virtcons who had become *so*...cohesive...that they *were* one consciousness.

So, Athenas seemed to become even more effective with time, as they learned to be an Athena, remembering what it was that helped them destroy that last Phobos...or the one before, or the one before that.

The only way to really kill Athenas was to ensure that there were no suitably equipped ships nearby who could receive their signals upon their destruction.

All virtcons hoped to one day be integrated into a virtual city such as Eternity Port, so that they could once again have something like a human life. Or, as the virtcon Fleet ads would say...enjoy a life that is *more* than just human. Why, where do you think they get the crew from? Real denizens of Eternity Port couldn't care less about the Fleet's battles but , there was always that bullied technician who grew up reading comic books, wanting to be a superhero...willing to make a superhero's sacrifice. Or sometimes, there's that medal studded pilot, so completely dedicated to the Commonwealth cause, they are willing to make an even greater sacrifice. Or sometimes, after a court martial, the guilty could choose between a dishonourable death, or Athena service. Or sometimes, you could come across a nutjob, born convinced that they were more than just human.

Athena...the chassis itself was durable, if not spectacular, but still, disposable...to some extent. Its weaponry is novel, if not exquisite. Its crew?

Spectacular.

[I really like the idea of a long range missile ship.]

[While powerful, the Athena is limited because it needs to be close to an Aquila class ship. Destroying the host Aquila can either disable the Athenas, or perhaps just means that if Athenas are destroyed after the host Aquila is destroyed, then you lose the crew entirely? Something along those lines]

[Athenas become progressively more powerful as they see more battles, at the same rate as normal crews, but experience bonuses are much stronger?]

[Athenas maybe can learn and practice special strategies? I don't know.]

[Athenas will require crew who are willing to be virtualized -- or perhaps, *forced* to be virtualized.]

[While Athenas are difficult to produce, they might be cheaper to produce?]

[Destroyed Athenas, if not vapourized, could be used to repair damaged Athenas?]
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In terms of keeping the thing alive around ares positron weapons....the Nephren X1 might work. The shieldbusting on the ares positron gun makes it absurdly good at present, but with some buffs the X1 could probably handle it. One downside being that it is vulnerable to thermonuclear weapons....and plasma will cut right through it.
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JohnBWatson wrote:The Wolfen and Sapphire are on the extreme low end of ship size, and smaller than anything fielded by the fleet. While a gunship shouldn't be too big, the ship that ends off the tech tree ought to look impressive. I'd say the Centurion's size should be an absolute minimum, with the Britannia's size being about right.
I think the Athena-class should be a little bit bigger than the Centurions and be a sleek gunship. A fast missileship that can run lightning strikes on Ares capital ships while being fast enough to avoid archcannons would be extremely helpful (not to mention looking speedy and high-tech).
Shrike wrote:Personally, I'd make it a missileship and outfit it with the NAMI heavy firing the M2, or a tracking varient thereof. Not M5's: those should have absurd power but require a risky strategy to get close enough to hit with them. The M2 also suffers from radius bugs, but it's still an effective weapon for the fleet, and they don't need to spend time developing anything new for them. The weakness should be against close-range attackers: if this thing only has light (or no) short-range defenses and its missiles have failsafes, then it's going to have problems against tundras that stick to it like glue and spam micronukes.
I think it needs a long-range launcher with impact-damage oriented missiles and a short-range energy weapon for defense/emergencies (definitely needs to be better than particle damage though). However, since the ship is small, light, and fast, its fatal flaw is that it can only carry so many missiles and is mostly defenseless until it can run back to a CSC to restock. It would have to use the short-range weapon to fend off tundras and the like or need protection from an escort.
Shrike wrote:In terms of keeping the thing alive around ares positron weapons....the Nephren X1 might work. The shieldbusting on the ares positron gun makes it absurdly good at present, but with some buffs the X1 could probably handle it. One downside being that it is vulnerable to thermonuclear weapons....and plasma will cut right through it.
As long as the ship is fast and agile enough to dodge the big/slow matter weapons, an energy-resistant shield would suit it just fine. Also, if the shield resists energy then the armor should resist matter (or the other way around).
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Extremely interesting choice of name. I would have suspected Greek names to be Ares only, in contrast with the Roman ones of the Commonwealth.

Athena-class Heavy Fire Support System / Superheavy Assault Gunship

4x Thermo Cannon, fixed forward mount
1000x Thermo Cannon cartridge

Designed on the principle that the best defense is a good offense, this gunship features the heaviest sustained firepower available to the Commonwealth Fleet. Quadruple-linked fixed-forward Thermo Cannons shred all ships caught on the receiving end, gunship and dreadnought alike, while also handily intercepting incoming projectiles.

-Extreme anti-capital firepower
-4 linked weapon slots
-Maneuvers like a brick
-No backup weapons

Or

Athena-class Experimental Assault Gunship:

Lazarus or Ion Reflector

Or

Advanced Stealth Gunship:
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Lazarus, at its current stats, would not work. It requires 900 MW to use, leaving no room for anything else except ammo weapons. Lazarus is also ineffective against Ares positron cannons. One or two hits, and the shield is down for at least a second. Lazarus is poor defense against huge explosions that other shields can absorb.
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A very interesting thing that could be added to the Athena is [noFriendlyFire = "true"]. In universe, only stations or its defense turrets have that attribute.

If added then the Athena can be protected from a Phobo's Archcannon by sacrificing Centurions to screen it, allowing you to destroy the Phobos while losing crew and morale in the process.

In universe, it can be explained that by utilizing advanced supercomputers and new targeting algorithms the Athena can fire at near maximum fire rate without collateral damage to its allies.
Multiple Athenas can be very devastating due to the fact that their firepower would stack but this should be solved with the limited number of Athenas available (You won't be the only carrier captain requesting them)

A weakness of the Athena could be a very weak shield due to utilizing most of its reactors energy output for its weapons.
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Unless the Athena is to be the only new gunship and all the existing gunships are to be unmodified there's not much that can be said. And I really hope the Britannia gets modified into something that is not strictly inferior to a Wolfen carrying the same loadout. Also into something that doesn't use radius fragment missiles unless they get fixed.

The obvious weapon choice for a top of tech tree ship is EI's Plasma Cannon. The weapon is flawed (it either needs to not interact or needs HP comparable to its damage) but properly fixed is the most powerful weapon produced by a Commonwealth associated manufacturer.

I'd suggest the Ion Reflector as its shield if Ares ships are stock (no eg. micronuke or APC broadside Phobos variants). That makes it a Deimos/Phobos counter, but lousy against other advanced gunships.
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Atarlost wrote:Unless the Athena is to be the only new gunship and all the existing gunships are to be unmodified there's not much that can be said. And I really hope the Britannia gets modified into something that is not strictly inferior to a Wolfen carrying the same loadout. Also into something that doesn't use radius fragment missiles unless they get fixed.

The obvious weapon choice for a top of tech tree ship is EI's Plasma Cannon. The weapon is flawed (it either needs to not interact or needs HP comparable to its damage) but properly fixed is the most powerful weapon produced by a Commonwealth associated manufacturer.

I'd suggest the Ion Reflector as its shield if Ares ships are stock (no eg. micronuke or APC broadside Phobos variants). That makes it a Deimos/Phobos counter, but lousy against other advanced gunships.
Thinking back over the ideas of this ship....I think I agree...if it's going to be a gunship rather than a missileship, then this is the right way to go...the EI plasma cannon is a short-range weapon that is the best bet against those heavy capital ships. It is rare and expensive, but it's commercial technology from a trusted supplier....and potentially even reverse-engineered from the APA. So a good thing for a limited-run super-high damage ship. One problem the ion reflector does have is a high vulnerability to positron and thermonuclear stuff because of the relatively low hitpoint total....but it's certainly worth testing. If we have to fight the rogue fleet however there will be issues with the "reflecting passthrough weapons multiply" bug. One thing that may be worth trying out on it is putting ion-reflective coatings on the armor segments, particularly at the back. If the Athena will retreat from battle, then that may keep it alive long enough to survive an ALT blast or three and get out of range...unless the AI is improved such that it can dodge incoming fire.

This potentially puts all four main gunships into set roles: Centurions as scouts and cannon-fodder (although the wolfen would make a better scout), the Centurion/X as a defensive fighter and counter to the chasm, the Britannia as a swarm-buster (which wouldn't even need a fix for the radius bug...just an increase on the damage area of the NM900), and the Athena as a ship for busting heavy armor.

We could use a missile-ship tree however....maybe use the Aurochs as a starting point, or take the Sigin from Corporate Command? They're the same ship underneath, so it should work. The Aquila is currently a heavy missile boat, although if it regains the extra katanas then that will change dramatically.


(And yes to buffing the HP of plasma cannons. The Baidu, NAMI and APA cannons have low shot HP as a major issue.....shot HP for this sort of weapon should reflect the damage that the weapon can do. One thing that would be cool, but possibly impractical to code, is to have shot HP and damage linked: shooting a plasma bolt may not kill it, but will reduce the damage it does when it hits. That's more something for another thread, at another time though.)
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TVR wrote:Extremely interesting choice of name. I would have suspected Greek names to be Ares only, in contrast with the Roman ones of the Commonwealth.

Athena-class Heavy Fire Support System / Superheavy Assault Gunship

4x Thermo Cannon, fixed forward mount
1000x Thermo Cannon cartridge

Designed on the principle that the best defense is a good offense, this gunship features the heaviest sustained firepower available to the Commonwealth Fleet. Quadruple-linked fixed-forward Thermo Cannons shred all ships caught on the receiving end, gunship and dreadnought alike, while also handily intercepting incoming projectiles.

-Extreme anti-capital firepower
-4 linked weapon slots
-Maneuvers like a brick
-No backup weapons
I really like that idea, it's a simple yet fitting answer to the criteria: No new devices, no super weapons, yet spectacularly strong, and probably very cool to see. And a glaring weakness: Slow to maneuver, like a weapon platform. I'd suggest have it's weapons on swivel, so it can effective aim at long range. It would probably do fine against anything coming from long range, but if anything gets too close then problems arise.

I like this because: 1. It's a relatively simple choice. 2. The weakness would be a tactical weakness, and not straight-up weakness against something (Ex. Not just 'this ship is weak against fighters/against Thermo weapons/etc.' But 'Only effective at long range.') You can strife to keep the enemies at long range, and use the ship to it's full potential. I think it'll promote more strategy and critical thinking than just 'only deploy this against Sandstorms.' The player must try to control battlefield in order to maximize Athena's effectiveness, maybe by sending Centurions into the enemies' rank, making them stop coming close and instead fight with the Centurions, and be shredded by the Athena's firepower.
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