future ship changing

[Betelgeuse]

In a "upcoming" version modders will be able to implement ship changing. There are a couple issues related to that I wish to discuss before that happens.

1. Differentiating ships, to make changing ships meaningful they need to play differently. There are several ways of accomplishing this ideally. Devices that can only be installed on certain ships. Ships that have diplomatic privileges. Ships that enhance certain devices. Are there any other ideas on how to make changing ships something that would effect game play?

2. How do you change ships? Boarding parties? Trade in? Can you buy an armada and change ships at will? What about a build your own ship system with ship parts you collect?

[LordSutekh]

I always thought changing ships wouldn't really be all that complicated. At least it doesn't need to be... George once said that the devices were what made a ship more powerful and I always envisioned starting off with a little fighter with device slots for a weapon and maybe a cargo hold and ending up with a cruiser with slots for weapons, missiles, shields, autoloaders, missile defence, etc. Throw in a little bit more variety with cargo holds (so you can't have a battleship AND a freighter), and not only do I think it would fit in with the current dynamics, but it would be a cool addition.

As for HOW you would change ships, we already have a station called a shipyard, why not just make it an actual one?

[george moromisato]

Excellent questions! I'm looking forward to see what people come up with.

Mechanically, a future version (1.02 or 1.03) will add a new function:

(plySetShip gPlayer newShipObj)

Where newShipObj is an already created ship object whose class has a <PlayerSettings> section.

The function itself will transfer all data variables (anything set with objSetData or objSetObjRefData) from the player ship to the new ship.

But all items, etc must be moved separately (by script). Thus you can decide whether you want to move all installed devices and cargo.

If you want to keep the original ship, that's possible too--you can just assign an AI controller to it and have it follow you. Or you can park it at some station. Or you can just destroy it.

[Betelgeuse]

The function itself will transfer all data variables (anything set with objSetData or objSetObjRefData) from the player ship to the new ship.

I see why you would want to do that but sometimes I would like to save that data for later (in case I change that ship back to the AI). I would need a function that transferred all the data to a holding thing (can you get data from ships from different systems?) then back from that holding thing when needed.

One non standard application of ship changing I just thought of is controlled scouts. The player would switch to controlling the scout ship (remotely) and use it to scout out dangerous places. If the scouting ship dies it isn't a big loss. This would need any data on the scout ship to be saved and restored after you are done scouting.

[Betelgeuse]

an idea from Atarlost in irc.

Altered controls for different ships. For example a remote control ship that has a light speed delay from the controller ship. (ie 60 ls away would delay responses by 2 seconds)

I realize that this might be hard to implement.

[Prophet]

Differentiation:
- cap ships should require crew, they could be macro controlled at arms length and function like fuel, where you must have X tons of food and water for them.
- ships with inherent abilities or abilities that cannot be gained by equipment like a built-in jumpdrive, perpetual solar-refuel, or stealth.
- perhaps some gates will only allow a certain type of ship through?
- bring techOrder back?! biological and mechanical ships could be mutually exclusive for installable equipment. Perhaps an Ancient techOrder for the post heretic factions.
- different HUD layouts, people have asked for access to the HUD for a long time and the ability to pilot different ships may require new mechanics. ie. Ships with more armor segments (10+).


As for methods of changing ships, boarding should definitely be an option (shameless plug) as well, salvaging wrecked ships could also be an option. This could add a new dynamic to fighting. If you find an enemy ship that you want to take you must destroy the ship without doing too much structural damage to it and minimize the necessary repairs once it is incapacitated/destroyed. Purchasing ships is probably the easiest method but should be expensive. Default would be a trade (subtract old price from new +/- equipment transfers, labor fees, hidden costs etc.) but if you have an autopilot rom, Auton AI subroutine module, or a suicidal volunteer, you can keep your old ship too. The armada sounds great IF the wingman and auton AI can be improved. I don't want to invest in a multi-million cred fleet only to watch them blast each other away.

That's all I can muster right now...

[george moromisato]

I see why you would want to do that but sometimes I would like to save that data for later (in case I change that ship back to the AI). I would need a function that transferred all the data to a holding thing (can you get data from ships from different systems?) then back from that holding thing when needed.

I don't think I get this. What kind of data are you talking about? And why is my proposal preventing you from doing what you want?

[Betelgeuse]

I see why you would want to do that but sometimes I would like to save that data for later (in case I change that ship back to the AI). I would need a function that transferred all the data to a holding thing (can you get data from ships from different systems?) then back from that holding thing when needed.

I don't think I get this. What kind of data are you talking about? And why is my proposal preventing you from doing what you want?

objSetData data. There are several cases we need to consider.

A: the original ship
B: the ship you are transferring to

Data starts on B and you want to keep it. (ie not overwrite or fill in blanks)
Data starts on B and you want to not keep it. (ie complete overwrite with no original data remaining)
Data starts on B and you want to transfer only the data that isn't already there. (ie only overwrite the nils)
Data starts on A and you want it to be replaced by new data. (the new data can be all nil but in general you don't want multiple copies of playership data running around)

The issues this raises are we don't know what data a given ship has and even if we did we don't know if a separate mod needed to put data on that AI ship but didn't because it was an player ship. One solution to this would be treat A as a brand new ship with the originals equipment and no data, this might cause some odd things to happen as the player might see creation events happen many times and might exploit them (ie a modded ship that sets friendliness relations when created, a perfectly fine mod currently). Another is to save the data with the ability to merge it in later this would require more functions.

[Daedal]

cap ships should require crew, they could be macro controlled at arms length and function like fuel, where you must have X tons of food and water for them

Maybe crew can also function like devices. You can hire an experienced helmsman to help you turn your enormous battleship a bit faster. You can hire an engineer to improve the fire rate / power of your guns. And like devices, unidentified crew might exist where you wouldn't know their abilities until you tried them out. Maybe some of these folks, having spent too much time all alone in a wrecked pod somewhere, would not be quite right in the head...

[speedofsquid]

How about power limits for device slots? The power conduits on a light freighter can only deliver 5MW to the weapon mount, but 50MW to the drive. For a light gunship, the limits are reversed.

In addition to being less maneuverable and using more armor slots, large ships could require more power for shielding. Shield generators would use more power or create weaker fields.

Ship changing could be used to change scales. A cargo ship gates into a system and docks at a station. Then the player controls a shuttle to travel within the station "system" and docks at an office module. Then the player controls a spacesuit to fly through the waiting room to the reception window.

The interiors of ships could be navigable "systems" with crew members fighting boarding parties. Inventory management could involve a tiresome minigame where the player controls a cargo bay worker with a tractor beam manually arranging cargo in zero g. ("My hold is completely full. I should jettison that damaged laser cannon I looted in Eridani. It's in the fore starboard corner behind 50 irregularly shaped chunks of titanium ore and three segments of reactive armor." "I really need to designate an accessible location for the fuel rods instead of just tossing them in whenever I loot them." "Yes, sir, I will surrender that laudanum ampule to customs. Just give me another minute. I'm trying to cooperate, sir, but... calm down, wait!")

[Wraithwynd]

The ability to change ships gives one the ability to change the whole structure of the game.

Currently we start off with one vessel that doesn't change much in appearance, but it appears to have nearly unlimited potential to take on better equipment. It would make more sense that heavier weapons and armors would require a larger vessel.

Instead of starting out in a weak 'yacht' one would start out in a shuttle or 'run-about' something the size of one of the battle autons. A somewhat slow craft, with a blaster or laser, with the ability to use a disposable missile launcher. Maybe a slot that is dedicated to a mining laser and maybe a minor mining cargo extension.

Limited cargo room, say 10 tons. Limited range, no way able to make the trip in a binary system, but able to make it across a single system.

A weight limit on armor, say 2 panels of level 3 armor tops (around 100 HP), a limited shield, say 60-70 HP. Something that makes it possible for you to reach St K's in relative safety.

All in all its a shuttle craft, more suited toward being inside of a larger mid-range and larger craft, designed and built for short 'jumps' in a system, through ingenuity and your obsessive drive to reach the core you are making it do a bit more than it was intended to do.

When you reach St K's you should have looted and mined and earned enough credits to get you something along the size of the wolfen, a modest vessel with 2-3 weapons slots (limited on the weight of the weapon) 4 plates of armor, 50-75 tons of cargo room, 2-3 other device slots.

You earn the right to pilot/operate/own other vessels. Military equipment is already 'earned' via doing a military mission, perhaps part of the missions is to earn the right to own and operate military craft, starting with the wolfen or the yacht.

To own/operate a cargo vessel you have to do missions for the Korolov Corporation.

To gain access to other types of vessels you have to defeat faction stations and vessels. Instead of just destroying and looting a station you get the option to sell it to an in system faction (Commonwealth, Corporation, etc) or you can rebuild/re-purpose it to where you gain the experience and technological know-how to say build a wind-slaver or a steel-slaver by rebuilding a slaver station. Once you capture/take over X number of slaver stations/camps you learn enough to build/operate/own a Sung transport, a Earth Slaver, a Dragon Slaver.

Selling it gives you 'kudos' with the faction you sell it too. Thus if you sell it to the Commonwealth the more systems you give them the higher/level ships they trust you with. Maybe the option to 'gift' the station (giving it without profit) will earn you more kudos with the faction.

As for what to do with the older vessels, maybe sell them for a fraction of their worth. After all they are previously owned, maybe the used ship sails man can convince a potential buyer that it was owned by a little old lady who only piloted on Sundays to the Sisters and back thus you have a chance to actually make more off of it, less commission of course.

You can loot it/strip it for stuff you want, we can already add/remove devices, loot/jettison stuff in cargo and from/to other ships thus there should be no problem in moving stuff to your new vessel.

Of course this changes the game somewhat. Instead of basically pillaging and destroying a system, one is actually changing it. Securing it from enemies and improving the lot of allied factions and building your own faction as well.

Maybe in the process one gets the chance to build up fleet(s) of vessels. Say cargo ships that generate an income by automatically traveling between systems you have already 'secured', unable to advance until you secure the next system, each system you secure increases profitability of your cargo fleet. Of course we don't actually need a fleet traveling, perhaps every few minutes or so of 'lapsed time' the game generates a profit based on how many stations you own how many secured systems there are and how many cargo vessels you have built/bought.

I would imagine that Dreadnoughts, Destroyers and World-ships are not cheap to build or maintain, ergo it takes a whole faction to have them. And it should be reasonable to assume that in order to be matched against Urak Destroyer you need a Corporate Cruiser or a Brittania Heavy Gunship, thus you need to be a faction yourself with the stations and personell and fleet of operating ships generation money and materials in order to be the captain of your own cruiser.

The player can choose the type of faction s/he wants to be by holding on to the types of stations that lead to his/her desired ship type. Thus if you wanted a Ranx Dreadnought you would hold on to the Ranx Stations, selling off or 'gifting' other faction stations to your allies.

This opens the doors for secondary and tertiary stations you require to support your faction, farms and cargo ships to move food and goods, mining ships to exploit the mineral resources so you can have the materials to build those larger ships. Patrol ships to keep the 'enemy' from destroying your stations in systems you have 'secured'.

Of course this is all part of Domina's Plan. Not only to get you to the core to do whatever she wants you to do there, but also to get humanity united and on the road to a better society. Thus your obsession to reach the core leaves more than just a string of systems with lots of wrecks and destroyed stations, it leaves behind a better humanity.

[digdug]

i suggest to expand the tonnage limit to devices and not only armors.
In the new system we could also have multiple devices that are virtually the same, and they change only by how much they weight.

An attribute like maxdeviceweight ="xxxx" should be easy to implement and can create ships progressions.

At the end, where does a sapphire mount an Ares plasma cannon ? (that in my opinion is as large as the sapphire itself)

now, the question is: in the future, will be the player oblidged to change ships to reach Heretic (or beyond), or the little Wolfen/sapphire/freighter will be enough for everything ?

[schilcote]

cap ships should require crew, they could be macro controlled at arms length and function like fuel, where you must have X tons of food and water for them

Maybe crew can also function like devices.

That reminds me of a mod idea I had a while ago, inspired by the RTD and that one Repair Bots mod. I was going to mod in Bob, the prototype android, who would randomly enhance/fix/damage/get blasted across the ship something every so often (and make paint).

[george moromisato]

There are several cases we need to consider...

Agreed. Perhaps then, rather than automatically tranferring data, how about the function raises an event, <OnPlayerShipChange>, on all types (not objects). This would allow each particular type to transfer or initialize data appropropriately.

In general, I am also moving away from storing player-specific data on the player ship itself. As a design pattern, I think it is better to store such data elsewhere.

[george moromisato]

now, the question is: in the future, will be the player oblidged to change ships to reach Heretic (or beyond), or the little Wolfen/sapphire/freighter will be enough for everything ?

My current plan is to keep the game as it is: the starting ship class should be enough to get through Heretic. [Of course, it should be possible to change ships, if the player desires.]

But I expect that soon after Heretic the player will be more or less forced to switch to a different ship (one based on Ancient Races technology).