Reasons for this:
1) not even a residential ring station can get by soley on a 150Mw reactor; factories would need more than a GW reactor (likely assemblies of koshibas or something)
2) balance
Atarlost, shrike & myself all back this proposal. It should be implemented in 1.04.
All reactors should be non-military
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Xephyr
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I agree on the balance part, but stations could potentially use arrays of reactors, or even station-grade reactors that a ship couldn't carry.
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Aury
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Yes, they can, but at the factory level, it becomes uneconomical
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Androgeos
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In that case, maybe a new kind of reactor can be added into the game, much like how Titanium Barricades are used as station armour but can also be mounted on a ship given sufficient provisions. A 10 GW reactor that weighs 60 tons, for instance.
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I would think the game just doesn't mention station grade reactors because they are far to large to fit into the small starships the player uses. Otherwise we are talking the 24th century equivalent of running an industrial district off a car engine...
I am ambivalent about this. The gamer in me says "Yes! Yes! Military tagged reactors are a pain!" On the other hand, within the game world, it makes sense for reactors that can power military-grade items be military only. Then again, this would mean everyone in the Outer Realm would need a military tag because it is far too dangerous traveling there without military hardware. Everyone owning military id in the Outer Realm is silly!
On a marginally-related note, can we have the starting reactors of every playership be at least 25 MW? In terms of NPCs, freighters already have 25 MW, and almost everything else (who is a friend) sports superior equipment than what the players start with, which a 10 or 15 MW reactor cannot support.
On a marginally-related note, can we have the starting reactors of every playership be at least 25 MW? In terms of NPCs, freighters already have 25 MW, and almost everything else (who is a friend) sports superior equipment than what the players start with, which a 10 or 15 MW reactor cannot support.
I would rather see more variants and some competing technologies than to nerf the only military reactor.
This has been discussed many times, and there are plenty of ideas for what those reactors could be.
A line of low mass, high efficiency, very expensive reactors that use higher tech fuel than the standard.
A line of illegal 'dirty' reactors that are big and bulky and sometimes irradiate your ship.
A line of freighter reactors that are large, have massive fuel tanks and cheap.
A line of military reactors that are efficient, low fuel capacity and average cost.
Of course, the standard forced reactor upgrade path would need to be revamped to accomodate the new options, but that's already been modded.
This has been discussed many times, and there are plenty of ideas for what those reactors could be.
A line of low mass, high efficiency, very expensive reactors that use higher tech fuel than the standard.
A line of illegal 'dirty' reactors that are big and bulky and sometimes irradiate your ship.
A line of freighter reactors that are large, have massive fuel tanks and cheap.
A line of military reactors that are efficient, low fuel capacity and average cost.
Of course, the standard forced reactor upgrade path would need to be revamped to accomodate the new options, but that's already been modded.
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Androgeos
- Commonwealth Pilot
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How about a reactor that can utilise any form of fuel possible, but cannot be upgraded in any way and drains fuel much faster than most other reactors?
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This is a place where gameplay needs to trump other concerns.PM wrote:I am ambivalent about this. The gamer in me says "Yes! Yes! Military tagged reactors are a pain!" On the other hand, within the game world, it makes sense for reactors that can power military-grade items be military only. Then again, this would mean everyone in the Outer Realm would need a military tag because it is far too dangerous traveling there without military hardware. Everyone owning military id in the Outer Realm is silly!
On a marginally-related note, can we have the starting reactors of every playership be at least 25 MW? In terms of NPCs, freighters already have 25 MW, and almost everything else (who is a friend) sports superior equipment than what the players start with, which a 10 or 15 MW reactor cannot support.
The real problem is the hyperion. There is no place to get it in the credit economy that sells military goods, and if you have to buy it in the rin economy it's a huge money sink. Right now you can get endgame gear without farming, but it's tight. And farming is a role playing decision in the late game. The only things that can be farmed that get you rins are ferians and ares. Farming ferians is questionably moral. Farming ares if you choose the peaceful side of the fleet arc is downright treacherous.
Since it has been decided that the sn2500 and koshiba being military implies the hyperion being military it follows that all reactors need to be demilitarized. That this can be justified based on the power needs of civilian stations is icing on the cake. That the justification does not stand careful scrutiny does not obviate the gameplay issue. Lots of things don't withstand careful scrutiny, among them x-ray lasers doing a different type of damage from nukes, ion beams being harder to deflect than neutral particle beams, nukes and neutron beams not irradiating their targets, and projectiles that travel at 40% C doing so little damage that adding explosives isn't like putting spikes on a nuke.
Now, there are other solutions. Letting CSCs install hyperions would solve the problem just fine, or letting an enemy drop them. Perhaps a different reason could be found for making the sn2500 military since it's designed specifically for the Centurion, but I don't think one can very well justify the koshiba being military. To support enough population to be genetically sustainable salvager nomads pretty much have to use koshibas, even if they don't appear in loot for balance reasons. Long term life support is a real energy hog. Just the grow lights in their hydroponics bays would overload a civilian starship reactor.
(To Androgeos) Reactors consume fuel too quickly already. I do not want one that drains fuel even faster. If anything, fuel consumption should be slower. One day, I will time how long it takes fuel to go from full to empty for a reactor running at maximum power.
Edit - The only reason I see for fuel draining as fast as it does is because players can get hungry quickly in Nethack. Transcendence is said to be a fusion of Nethack and Star Control.
Edit - The only reason I see for fuel draining as fast as it does is because players can get hungry quickly in Nethack. Transcendence is said to be a fusion of Nethack and Star Control.
(To Atarlost) You can raise rin by selling weapons to Teratons too. They pay well for level X weapons. Fabricator abuse is great for this. This does not diminish the fact that a military Hyperion can be impossible to get should the RNG decides to spite you. No Ringer shipyard in the game? Sucks to be you. Want to get Hyperion from the fabricator? Sorry, you will get nothing but megadrives.
As for farming Ferians, that is downright evil. However, getting in the way of mining and slowing down the game makes them a scrappy; and I am all too eager to make it stop by eradicating the bugs.
As for farming Ares? I have seen the Ares in Heretic as a group who are in dubious standing with the rest of their organization (i.e., they want peace, the leadership may still want to kill all humans). Whoever the Ares in Heretic are, if the Iocrym slag their station, all you have left are the hostile Ares, no matter who you sided with in the "fleet arc".
As for farming Ferians, that is downright evil. However, getting in the way of mining and slowing down the game makes them a scrappy; and I am all too eager to make it stop by eradicating the bugs.
As for farming Ares? I have seen the Ares in Heretic as a group who are in dubious standing with the rest of their organization (i.e., they want peace, the leadership may still want to kill all humans). Whoever the Ares in Heretic are, if the Iocrym slag their station, all you have left are the hostile Ares, no matter who you sided with in the "fleet arc".
Do you think I don't play the game? The Teratons pay peanuts for level X weapons compared to their and ringer sell prices. If you don't farm Ares you barely get enough from weapon sales. You know what you get from installed devices? 10%. 10% of stuff is intact. 20% is damaged. The rest isn't there at all. Kill 20 chasms and you can expect to sell just two positron cannons to the Teratons. There's about an order of magnitude price jump from level 8 to 10 weapons and the buy sell gap is unspecified, but IIRC is at least a factor of two. To get one typical piece of level 10 gear you can expect to have to kill 60 chasms or Diemoses, not counting those that fail to leave wrecks or whose wrecks get destroyed. Or 17 Phoboses. Or 100 Tundras. Armor's destroyed even more. You can kill a 32 segment ship through one or two segments and have it not unusal to not see a single piece of even damaged armor so the fabricator isn't going to do you all that much good unless you're already playing farm town. Or mining, which is frankly just farming stuff that doesn't shoot back.PM wrote:(To Atarlost) You can raise rin by selling weapons to Teratons too. They pay well for level X weapons.
I know you (Atarlost) play the game, but if one does not sell ores to the Ringers, where else can he get rin?
Yes, the Teratons pay less than what they sell for. I do not buy level X weapons - they are too expensive no matter where they are sold. I fabricate most of my high level equipment (and spares to sell); the rest come as loot. I usually have plenty of resources to burn by the time I find a fabricator. Of course, I spend a generous amount of time hauling stuff around as I loot everything (so it can be considered a form of grinding). I do not need to farm Ares ships for resources (unless I am looking for Ares tech to equip such as a lightning turret or Hecates), although I gladly take their loot from any ship I encounter and blast along the way. Also, until my last few games, I have not farmed Ferians at all (because it is evil... and dangerous to weaker ships), and mining for high level ores in the midgame with Ferians crawling everywhere is suicide (plus mining is grind-tastic in general, something I do only as a last resort), so I had nothing to sell to the Ringers except the occasional Ringer valuable here and there.
Another reason I have not bothered selling resources to Ringers is because I assumed they would have buying limits like credit using stations. When I first played the game, I sold stuff as I found them. Buy back prices kept getting smaller and smaller until I get the "We are not interested...". This took me by surprise - no other game I played rejected vendor trash as you sold it. I was also hurting from fuel draining all the time, and my credits slowly draining with no way to replenish them (because stations refused to buy vendor trash and habitats stopped giving missions). This is why I use solar equipment and loot everything until I can use or sell them in bulk. I recently discovered the Ringers do not have buying limits, and I no longer have an aversion to killing Ferians (after I got fed up with them), so I may try things differently the next time I play.
Yes, the Teratons pay less than what they sell for. I do not buy level X weapons - they are too expensive no matter where they are sold. I fabricate most of my high level equipment (and spares to sell); the rest come as loot. I usually have plenty of resources to burn by the time I find a fabricator. Of course, I spend a generous amount of time hauling stuff around as I loot everything (so it can be considered a form of grinding). I do not need to farm Ares ships for resources (unless I am looking for Ares tech to equip such as a lightning turret or Hecates), although I gladly take their loot from any ship I encounter and blast along the way. Also, until my last few games, I have not farmed Ferians at all (because it is evil... and dangerous to weaker ships), and mining for high level ores in the midgame with Ferians crawling everywhere is suicide (plus mining is grind-tastic in general, something I do only as a last resort), so I had nothing to sell to the Ringers except the occasional Ringer valuable here and there.
Another reason I have not bothered selling resources to Ringers is because I assumed they would have buying limits like credit using stations. When I first played the game, I sold stuff as I found them. Buy back prices kept getting smaller and smaller until I get the "We are not interested...". This took me by surprise - no other game I played rejected vendor trash as you sold it. I was also hurting from fuel draining all the time, and my credits slowly draining with no way to replenish them (because stations refused to buy vendor trash and habitats stopped giving missions). This is why I use solar equipment and loot everything until I can use or sell them in bulk. I recently discovered the Ringers do not have buying limits, and I no longer have an aversion to killing Ferians (after I got fed up with them), so I may try things differently the next time I play.
One more reason for reactors to be non-military: The Black Market.
My favorite way of raising credits is to stockpile military reactors and sell them in bulk to the Black Market in Rigel. After such a transaction, I no longer need credits for the rest of the game.
P.S. To clarify, not only Black Markets pay more than Commonwealth stations for military reactors, but they also have unlimited credits to buy as many reactors from the player as he can sell at once, provided the reactor is not worth more than 100000 credits. In other words, Black Market cannot buy Hyperion reactors, but 250 and 500 MW reactors are fair game. Black Markets will refuse to buy reactors if they have too many, so selling strategies for maximizing profit apply here.
My favorite way of raising credits is to stockpile military reactors and sell them in bulk to the Black Market in Rigel. After such a transaction, I no longer need credits for the rest of the game.
P.S. To clarify, not only Black Markets pay more than Commonwealth stations for military reactors, but they also have unlimited credits to buy as many reactors from the player as he can sell at once, provided the reactor is not worth more than 100000 credits. In other words, Black Market cannot buy Hyperion reactors, but 250 and 500 MW reactors are fair game. Black Markets will refuse to buy reactors if they have too many, so selling strategies for maximizing profit apply here.