Wolfen vs. Sapphire balance

[george moromisato]

I'm thinking of swapping the speed/thrust of the Wolfen and the Sapphire. In other words, I'd like to make the Sapphire fast (.25 c) and make the Wolfen average speed (.20 c).

What do people think? Would this weaken the Wolfen too much?

This might balance the three starting ships better:

Wolfen is well-armed and armored but limited in device slots
Sapphire is fast, but weakly armed and armored
Freighter is slow, but has a large reactor and lots of space

[george moromisato]

Here is another proposal:

Leave the Wolfen and Sapphire speed/thrust as it is.
Boost the Sapphire to a 15MW reactor.
Give the Sapphire 4000-5000 credits to start so that the player can outfit it according to taste.

I think this might add more variety to the starting ships. What do you all think?

[F50]

Interesting... This would probably mean that I would switch to the Sapphire b/c of the speed; that is what most or all Wolfen players have gotten addicted to. I think roles of the Wolfen and Yacht were almost switched entirely. That is, more cargo space for the Wolfen, less for the Yacht. How many weapons does the Yacht get? I have never used more than 3 weapons not including the ICX (usually just two weapons), but that was because I needed at least one for a cargo hold expansion and another for the reactor. I think in this case the stats would be:

Freighter: whatever it is now

Wolfen: max armor per side: 12, whatever amount of device slots it had. Yacht's handling. more cargo space than it had so like: 60-80 max?

Sapphire Yacht: max armor per side: 6, whatever amount of device slots it had. Wolfen's handling. Wolfen's cargo space.

Also I would like the Wolfen's shield to be reduced to the Class I deflector like all the other ships. I don't think it would be like weakening the wolfen as much as making the Sapphire the Wolfen and then replacing the original Wolfen with an entirely new ship.

EDIT: just saw new post. Money is really no object. The money issue is almost done by St K., and done when you get two systems past st K. to the first BMS that you can blow up. It is more how the ships differ late-game, I think.

[george moromisato]

It will be hard to know without play-testing. But my theory is that by the time you reach Sung Space, the difference between the ships narrows significantly.

By then, you generally have devices to compensate for the initial short-comings (e.g., Better weapons/shields for the Sapphire or drive upgrades for the freighter).

I think that the biggest difference is felt at the beginning. With the Wolfen, I almost always get to Rigel Aurelius without dying--the weapons/shields are good enough to survive until you can upgrade. The freighter has a great advantage with the omni-directional laser.

But the Sapphire has a lot of trouble with even weak enemies like the Outlaw Zulus. It's armor and weapons are very weak and it doesn't seem to have too many compensating advantages.

My theory is that adding some early advantages to the Sapphire will allow it to survive until later systems. Giving it more money (instead of more powerful weapons) lets the player choose whether to upgrade its armor or its weapons.

[goat not sheep]

True...but the wolven seems to make me feel good in the end as well.

[F50]

if you don't mind me disagreeing, although the playres are much more the same in sung space due to equalizing devices, and not so many different devices and weapons, turning ratio, lack of device slots, and more weapons than the freighter differ the Wolfen from the other ships late game. The less device slot especially makes this ship proportionately more different the later you go.

The Sapphire is a fair bit slower than the wolfen, but the extra device slot and previously orthosteel armor differs it slightly. This is the ship I would have ultimately replaced with the new Wolfen.

I haven't played the freighter but lesser turning ratio, lots of devices, the possiblility of arming the heaviest armors, and few weapons make this ship the most different in late game; proportionately more different the later you go.

[OddBob]

But the Sapphire has a lot of trouble with even weak enemies like the Outlaw Zulus. It's armor and weapons are very weak and it doesn't seem to have too many compensating advantages.

The sapphire is the only ship that starts with a non-laser weapon. Personally, I think it's the best ship against Zulus and their ceramic armor..but I have problems aiming the dual laser.

I like switching the thrust though...turns the Wolfen into sort of a tank instead of a jet fighter.
The only problem I see with it is it really give the wolfen one role.
Right now, the balance is very interesting:

The wolfen is a great combat ship, and a bad trader because it can't carry much, but a good trader in that it can outrun enemies, making trading safer. Sort of like a smuggler.

The freighter is a good trader, but a bad combat ship because it can't carry many weapons, but it's also a sort of good combat ship if you want to be a battleship with lots of heavy ammunition.

The Sapphire is an okay trader and a pretty good fighter...if you can survive the beginning (and you know you can, that's not a real disadvantage, just a relative one).

Sapphire Yacht: max armor per side: 6, whatever amount of device slots it had. Wolfen's handling. Wolfen's cargo space.

I don't like giving the sapphire the Wolfen's current (pathetic) cargospace.
Basically, now you've just switched the Sapphire and Wolfen except for devices.

[(name here)]

i liked it best in .95. the sapphire should be the middle of the road and the wolfen should be a fighter jet. the freighter is the uber battleship of doom in the late game, but handles like an M-1 Abrams in mud.

[Betelgeuse]

I think having more money at the begining of the game would be interesting. The problems with the sapphire now is that the other ships do things better. If you want devices you go freighter if you want speed you go wolfen. The sapphire has nothing that would make people pick it over the others.
Something like an easier begining game or cheaper items from commonweath stations would get more people to pick it.

[FAD]

Instead of swapping speeds, why not just make an omnidirectional recoilless cannon for the Sapphire? I believe it would balance that ship out for early game play. Otherwise, by making the ship faster (as was first suggested) will only make hitting enemies even harder if only having a standard recoiless.
The Wolfen being the fastest ship (currently), having a duel laser and as fast as the ship is, you can still hit your target with at least one of the lasers anyway.

I guess that's the main reason why the Sapphire is my last choice of the 3 ships-I rely on omni weapons as I can hardly hit what I'm supposed to without one. Begads if the ship is to be even faster, I'll be seeing a lot more resurrections than I will kills!

[darksider]

Greetings, everyone!

Well, now I've played 0.97 and 0.97a (not finished) and here are my thoughts;

My opinion on 3 ships in 0.97

Wolfen: the ship I liked the most, very fast and comfortable travel, and good at fighting too, though the limiting cargo is something annoying.
Even if I don't like the starting equipment, with some luck I can sell them and have something I prefer.

Sapphire: was just an inferior version of Wolfen, inferior starting equipment,
inferior speed, armor, and a bit more of cargo hold means nothing if it slows rotation so badly!
But once I get used to it is still have good speed and maneuverability so it's enough playable.
Although incapability to have good armor like heavy orthosteel or heavy Tharsis plate was sometimes irritating, two of level X armors are useful anyway and it's not a big deal.
Rather than that, the limiting cargo and encumbrance was the biggest problem playing Sapphire.

the freighter: I think I can understand its pros, but the speed is just too annoying.
Great starting equipment and vast cargo hold and many devices and
heavy armor are all good things to have, indeed, but it is S-L-O-W and
I just couldn't live with it. Or, getting killed by wind slavers 3 times in a row
in the system just passed the arena was just too frastrating.
And it's biggest of the three, meaning it's easiest to get hit.
I don't like that either. I'd recommend it to newbies, though.


So, I suppose, in 0.97 Sapphire was just a weaker version of Wolfen,
but now that "encumbrance" has been reduced, I think it is very well balanced.
And slowing down Wolfen is very unattracting to me.

Wolfen is a ship dedicated to battle, and in 0.97
I can dodge all the shots from Ventari destroyers playing Wolfen,
but with Sapphire I sometimes get shot from them
("omnidirectional TeV 9 blaster damaged" moment. Ouch!) and
Sapphire seems to be slightly inferior in combat indeed, which is not a bad thing.
So slowing down Wolfen will considerably cap it's advantage.

Wolfen doesn't need more speed but can't live without the cargo hold expansion, and the freighter has enough space to carry things but needs some sort of propulsion upgrade severely, but now Sapphire can be very flexibly customized.
So, if you ask me, instead of swapping their speed, I'd give slightly more cargo hold capacity to Sapphire (+15t or so maybe), and it could be jack-of-all-trades or master of none.
Isn't that fun?

And, talking about starting equipment... how about letting Sapphire have a DM600 missle rack?

[(name here)]

i liked the sapphire in .95 alot. i think it should be more middle of the road instead of having advantages and disadvantages involving less armor, less fuel consuption less speed and such. the sapphire should be better armored than the wolfen instead of faster.

[F50]

I think Darksider is on the right track. I suggest that he sapphire Yacht get an extra device slot in return for it keeping its inferior armor and maneuverability.

This would make the sapphire a bit less middle of the road, but I think it would make it more of a new ship, A ship with reasonable speed and room for devices while having light armor for decent maneuverability,

you can hit with the recoilless just fine, but a heavy recoilless would be nice.