Sisters of Domina = Easy money?

[Blitz]

This is continuation of discussion on this topic.

http://neurohack.com/transcendence/foru ... .php?t=743

I wrote

Also, what do you think of having Domina protect the Sisters if you choose to attack their shrine? I think there should be more serious consequences if you destroy one. Maybe you should have Domina heal them the first time. If you keep attacking them, then you can have Domina destroy your installed weapon or something of that sort. Also, you'll lose all the invoke powers you had. Maybe you can also have other factions (even those who are at war with each other) target you if you try to destroy one.

to which FAD replied

This one has bothered me in the past. I accidently destroyed a Domina station while sniping with a Howitzer. The guard ships didn't even bother to come after me but instead, just gated out. Afterwards, I was able to dock with any other Domina stations as if nothing had ever happened and found that to be odd, but assumed it was just an oversight.

I think there should be some form of punishment and I like the idea of losing any Domina powers you may have had. Also think you should be banned from getting those powers again...or maybe if you try to make amends, they would reconsider.
As for repeated attacks, having Domina destroy your weapon is favorable I think.

I feel this is a serious bug in the game. However, I don't think the punishment should be simple imprisonment. Rather, it should be like the alternatives suggested above. Opinions and suggestions please.

[Betelgeuse]

the items it gives you for killing it are low level so I don't think there should be a punishment. Their ships still attack you if you attack the station and haven't killed it yet.

If there was a punishment there needs to be a reward worth being punished for. It doesn't have to be obvious like getting attacked by the corp cruiser is a great reward often far overshadowing the worth of the station killed such as fuel stations and corp enclaves in games where I get millions of credits this is how I do it. (I stopped for a bit when the trading stations where good but they where nerfed to death. It just goes to show that balance it tricky.)

[Blitz]

the items it gives you for killing it are low level so I don't think there should be a punishment. Their ships still attack you if you attack the station and haven't killed it yet.

If there was a punishment there needs to be a reward worth being punished for. It doesn't have to be obvious like getting attacked by the corp cruiser is a great reward often far overshadowing the worth of the station killed such as fuel stations and corp enclaves in games where I get millions of credits this is how I do it. (I stopped for a bit when the trading stations where good but they where nerfed to death. It just goes to show that balance it tricky.)

Regarding the ships which defend the shrines,
Take a look at this bit of code -

Code: Select all

<Ships>
<Table>
<Ship chance="50"	count="1d4"	class="&scRoninB;"		orders="guard"/>
<Group chance="40">
<Ship			count="1d2"	class="&scSapphireYacht;"	orders="guard"/>
<Ship			count="1"	class="&scEI100;	"	orders="gate"/>
</Group>
<Ship chance="10"	count="1d2"	class="&scEI100;"		orders="gate"/>
</Table>
</Ships>

As you can see, most the shrines are defended by Ronins and Sapphire Yachts out of which the ronins have a 50% chance and the yachts have a 40%. This isn't what you'd call "heavily defended". It is very easy to destroy the one by simply flying onto one and shooting it. It is even possible with the yacht (it takes a bit of time but can be nullified to an extent by using Autopilot) and the Wolfen with their starting configurations. Taking out the defenses isn't a big problem either. It isn't impossible to handle four Ronin B's with a standard Wolfen.

Also, there doesn't need to be a reward worth getting punished for. Dry Docks and residentials do not have any items on them but you still get imprisoned. You're simply not supposed to destroy friendly stations and I can't see why the Sister's shrine is an exception to that rule.

The items you can find there aren't entirely worthless. You can find a wide variety of items. Some of these are consumables like fuel, armor enhancing coatings and ROMs and a lot more which are quite useful. You can also find find expensive commodities. AND you are able to do this for nothing more than the fuel it costs. In other words, the game is giving you extra money for no reason at all.

Besides, doesn't it strike you strange that you are allowed to destroy a shrine full of harmless sisters who are helping the poor? That'd go down very badly with most people. It doesn't make you any better that a Pirate. And then there's Domina, who's (almost) all powerful and who favors the Sisters. Why doesn't she interfere? And why do the sisters still let you dock after you destroy done of their shrines? To top it all off you are still allowed to invoke Domina's powers as if nothing happened. Why?

EDIT - Yaaay hundred posts at last. 8)

[george moromisato]

Back in version 0.7 (or so) there was no penalty for killing a friendly stations. As people found various exploits that would yield lots of money, I started adding penalties.

I fully expect (in the future) to add "consequences" for destroying a Sisters' shrine. But I haven't thought about what that might be. I like FAD and Blitz's idea that it should be something other than imprisonment.

Let's speculate. I think there are four different "sovereigns" that will care:

1. The Commonwealth: In today's world, burning down a church gets you a pretty long prison sentence. I think it would be the same in Transcendence. If you are caught, you should be imprisoned. Perhaps, though, you might get a trial of some sort and be able to argue that you did it accidentally. Depending on whether there were other enemy ships in the area at the time, you might be able to get off. [This might be cool for all cases of destroying stations.]

Another thing is that many people in the Commonwealth (and certainly in that system) will view you with suspicion whether you get off or not. Perhaps some stations stop trading with you because they think you are "anti-Domina"

2. The Penitent Order: The Penitents hate the Sisters. Perhaps they will look favorably on you? Definitely not for 1.0, but maybe something to think about for later.

3. The Sisters: Obviously, the Sisters will be very upset about what you've done. But they believe in forgiveness and redemption, so maybe they set up a way for you to atone. Perhaps they might give you a particularly dangerous quest. If you succeed, you might be better off. If you fail, you might be dead.

4. Domina: This is a tricky issue. It's true that in Transcendence, Domina and her powers are real (they have real effect on the game). But Domina's intentions and goals are not clear. Does Domina care if a shrine gets destroyed? The Sisters believe that Domina cares (obviously) but that's not the same thing. [My only point is that there are ways to explain why Domina would not interfere.]

I don't think I'll do very much in this area for 1.0, but it's definitely interesting to think about. Thanks for posting!

[OddBob]

Perhaps, though, you might get a trial of some sort and be able to argue that you did it accidentally. Depending on whether there were other enemy ships in the area at the time, you might be able to get off. [This might be cool for all cases of destroying stations.]

I really like this. Perhaps if you have insurance you could be provided with a lawyer and get a chance of reduced/no sentence (or pay for your own lawyer).

[Betelgeuse]

crime insurance would be cool. Set aside some money to bribe your way through the courts. (the commonwealth doesn't seem all that stable and the corporation is a business they would want to find ways of making profits)

Remember this is a game if you don't want sisters stations to be destroyed make them invincible don't overly punish the player for wanting to play a different way.

I like the corp destruction penalty atm. There is a high risk and high reward for each corp station. But with commonwealth stations it is an even higher risk for a low reward. This is brought about by the fact that early equipping is nearly all done by the commonwealth. Maybe the corp penalty should stay the same (instant game over) but the commonwealth would be more complicated such as taking into account your standing with them and how much you have donated to them beforehand (I would love to be able to donate to any friendly I want).

[FAD]

2. The Penitent Order: The Penitents hate the Sisters. Perhaps they will look favorably on you? Definitely not for 1.0, but maybe something to think about for later.

3. The Sisters: Obviously, the Sisters will be very upset about what you've done. But they believe in forgiveness and redemption, so maybe they set up a way for you to atone. Perhaps they might give you a particularly dangerous quest. If you succeed, you might be better off. If you fail, you might be dead.

These two alone could make for an interesting scenario after destroying a Sisters' Shrine... The "dangerous quest" could be one that has the player going to a Penitent Shrine (or any enemy station for that matter) to have a look-around, retrieve an abducted Sister or whatever. The Penitents, learning of your destroying a station of their enemy welcomes you in (allowing you to dock), whereupon, sets you on a quest to transport the "Sister in question" to another Penitent Shrine, where she's slated to undergo further extremities...

This would leave the player in a situation where they'll have to choose. Take the Sister back to the Domina's or deliver her to the Penitents? Doing either one will be rewarding, but will also set off serious repercussions.
Bear in mind, had it not been for the wrong doings in the first place, the player would have never found themselves in this situation.

[Blitz]

That'll be neat but we still don't know what we are going to the galactic core for. And it's been suggested a lot of times that we could be allowed to choose between Oracus and Domina. If we are going to the galactic core for some purpose purely on Dominas behalf, that kind of mission could screw up the story. However, if we have a choice of some sort... then, it'll be great. Politics in transcendence!

[FAD]

Well, I would consider it a turn of events that was set by the player messing with the Sisters in the first place. Not much different than getting busted while trying to sell illegals to get an ID, so to speak.
And as George has previously stated, the Sisters are a forgiving kind and by the time the player was to reach the core, it could still end up in a choice between the two or even on Domina's behalf for that matter. But as you've stated, we still don't know what we're going to the core for, so... Other than getting killed or imprisoned somewhere before Heretic and game over, the outcome still remains a mystery.

[Blitz]

Well, Transcendence has a bit of the RPG aspect. It'll be good if that is developed a bit more. But Transcendence does have (or is supposed to have) a storyline. The players freedom and the RPG aspect should be curbed so that the story isn't damaged.

[Betelgeuse]

but thats just the thing Transcendence isn't an rpg. Transcendence is made to be played over and over. Rpgs are not.
A storyline is just something you skip after the first couple times. Please don't cripple the game so people who would just play the game once will like it better.

[Blitz]

What exactly is you def for an RPG? Diablo II is a good example and it has great replayability. Maybe that's due to the character system though...

[Betelgeuse]

dungeon crawlers don't really focus on story. It is a collection type game. Like MM games it focuses on grinding to get cool stuff.

there are two main types of rpg as I see them (there is mixing)

story driven: most consul rpgs focus on telling a story by leading the player through events and watching as the character grows

character driven: more pc rpgs focus on giving the player tons to do to make there character stronger. You will see alot of skill systems in these games.