hard problem item edition

[OddBob]

You could also add a mode where weapons can be damaged for hard core players

I am in favor of this in general, no need for a mode.
You'd need a way to switch out weapons in the field though - weapon install and weapons maintenance kits and support autons.

The easiest would just be to make less-used weapons cheaper, to convince players to purchase them and sink the extra funds into another ship component.

This doesn't work across games though - it just fixes it in the meantime and makes the cheaper set the new favorites.

[Charon Mass of Goo]

This doesn't work across games though - it just fixes it in the meantime and makes the cheaper set the new favorites.

But the fact that the Lesser used weapons are usually pretty weak, and people don't like the weakest links. And if you make them cheaper, it would take alot more selling to get a better weapon. It just makes the user think more, so in a way, it helps and it doesn't.

[Betelgeuse]

ok here is the reasons why I don't think this is a balance issue (balance can be better but will not help with this problem)
lets say we had a perfectly balanced game, now to be interesting there would still need to be differences in weapons, what you want in a weapon can be very different than what I want in a weapon plus there are weapons that I find "cool" for some reason. So even in a perfectly balanced game there is not uniform weapon choosing.

A different reason is a weapon or at least something close to it is very easy to get. So if you like dual laser weapons those are extremely easy to get (and that's not even counting weapons that you farm a ship for, you know what weapon you are going for then)

Experience is also working against using different weapons. If you get good with a weapon that creates a gap making it more likely to choose that weapon in future game widening the gap even more.

[F50]

This is entirely a balance issue. Not between the player and the enemy (or at least, this problem isn't caused by that), but by balance between weapons




One of the problems is that some weapons are much more powerful/versatile than others of their level. Consider the particle beam cannon. It is the only long range weapon in IV and V. The katanna star cannon is very comparable to the Hanzo blaster, but the latter costs more, drains more power, and is of a lesser damage type. The dual TeV is more comparable, but is of a lesser damage type.

Another problem is the relatively linear upgrading of weapons

Ion Blaster -> Omni Ion blaster -> IM90
Heavy Ion blaster

particle beam cannon -> omni particle -> Omni TeV
Dual Particle -> Dual TeV

omni-laser -> omni-turbo -> omni particle -> omni ion ->IM90




A third problem is the two ub3r weapons

LAMPLIGHTER (Ammoless heavy Quianlong archcannon)
IM90 (*triple* omni Ion)

Even the Quianlong used to have drawbacks that caused me not to use it except for the Iocrym.




A fourth problem is the lack of variety in weapon types:

not-so-interesting

straight
straight dual
straight omni
missile straight
missile tracking
missile frag

interesting

cloud (PK25)
multi-omni (IM90) (uber)
ICX (not utilized as weapon)
missile-frag-missile (Medusa) (weak)
mine (weak)
smart (only appears low-level)

furthermore, ammoless weapons are not as interesting and provide less variety than weapons that require ammo. You can spray around an ammoless as much as you like, the ammo weapons you have to be careful with.

[Betelgeuse]

I had just shown that it wasn't a balance issue if you disagree with something I said you can at least say where I went wrong. Why use something that you wouldn't normally use. I don't find those things you find interesting interesting myself (I prefer the strait duel myself) so it would take alot more power for me to use them than for you to use them.
If you make it powerful enough that you have to use it everyone will use it and if everything was about the same in its level then people would just use there favorite weapon every game.
Balance is good don't get me wrong but will not solve the problem of getting people to use different weapons across games.

[george moromisato]

Today, if I find a slam cannon or particle beam weapon, I immediately install it. If I find a morning star cannon, I usually sell it and wait to find (or buy) a slam cannon.

If the morning star cannon were as good as the slam cannon, then I think that I would use it more often--that is, I would use it on those games when I happened to find it first.

That is how balance can help the game, in my opinion.

I don't think fixing the balance issue will solve all problems, but I do think that balance will *increase* the chance of people using different weapons across games.

Of course, we still need lots of other ideas, as Betelgeuse says.

[Betelgeuse]

don't forget some people don't play with weapons they feel are "overpowered" and some people will more likely play with a "cool" weapon and will avoid weapons that they think are bothersome.

The problem with these problems is that they vary from person to person so you can't balance the game based on them but they cause people to play with certain weapons and not others.

As for people playing with the first thing they get I have to say that isn't true. I personally use lasers so much that I don't use the slam cannon when its offered and only use high end particle weapons like the Hanzo blaster only if I don't find a fusion fire (I love finding these at black markets, that weapon has great coolness factor for me) or the x-ray.

As for weapons I find bothersome or uncool I don't like any of the kinetic weapons and the ammo weapons tend to be overpowered or too bothersome.

There isn't anything you can do to pick kinetic weapons as long as items and ships are independent of each other. The only ideas that would change that are strict ship and item classes (certain ships can only equip certain weapons, would only work if you had to buy ships and what ships where available wasn't always the same), a slot modification system (you find a slot setup device that allows you to equip X amount of laser weapons < level 5 and a shield < level 7 that isn't military) for example, and the item combination or sets idea (same idea basically, if you have a set you are more likely to use it even if you don't like the weapon because its a set)

[Fossaman]

Just a small quibble here; I almost never use the slam cannon. I'd pick the morningstar any day.

But still, there are balance issues. I think a more versatile upgrade system would go a long way to making any weapon viable--as long as it has a useful configuration.

If such a system were to be added, additional power usage for upgrades would probably also be necessary.

[Ttech]

I have a Plasma Cannon that when its fired on a player ship it damages the ship instead.

[FAD]

I really don't think there's a way to make it so all weapons are appealing to the point that each player will use them. In a sense, I think that's a good thing. Infinite diversity is key here, but it's always good to know there are other types of weapons available.

I'm a laser guy as well and it always makes my day whenever I come across an X-Ray. As for kinetic, I most always keep my distance from them until I find a Flenser cannon--then I keep it as the secondary and on very rare occasions may switch it out for a heavy slam cannon later on. An enhanced Flenser (along with the kinetic enhance device) can and does go for a long distance.
The only ammo weapons I'll use are the NAMI missile launchers (standard and heavy) and Cnidocyst cannon.
The morningstar has its coolness but it's not my style and I doubt that enhancing it (beyond what you can now) would make it a keeper--I simply don't care for "spray" weapons when it comes to battles... Same for the Ion9 and the Shtorm. Although I will admit that the sound effect from the spray hitting enemy armor sounds great, still is not enough to hold my interest in keeping such a weapon.

As far as ideas, what about having temporary enhancers?
Inject a laser remodulator today!
Once used, it will temporarily enhance (say 10 - 15 seconds) your laser beyond the laser immunity threshold--use the enhancer on it too many times and you could fry your cannon.

[digdug]

I thinkI would like to have ship modificators for weapons (and shields and armor ?)

I usually play the freighter, and a morningstar on a freighter is a weak weapon: you're slow and you cannot match the speed of many enemy ships, and the weapon works well only at short range. A deadly combination.
That's why i sell the morningstar when i find one.

Of course I keep all the weapons that help me compensate the lack of speed and manouver. (omni, fast firing and fragmentation)
FOr the same reason I switch as soon as possible from a NAMI to a MAG, because the ZG24 can "clean" an area of space at long distance and without good aiming. In particular the MAG is my trump card against Dwarg.

[digdug]

all you guys come out with real good ideas, but the real problem to me is:

there are too few weapons in the game.
Example there are:
4 weapons at level 1
5 weapons at level 2

when you start you don't have much to choose, you always stick to the same weapon.

and at high levels is the same:
6 weapons for level 8
5 weapons for level 9

If you want a player to use different items in the game, you need to add a plethora of items first.

[Betelgeuse]

ok here is a list of how many weapons I commonly use out of each level, as you can see it is no where near the amount of weapons in each level so adding more weapons to each level will not change that.

level: amount commonly used

1: 0 (I don't think anyone commonly uses level one weapons other than starting with the recoilless)
2: 2 (this one has some nice choices, I commonly use fast fire laser or dual laser)
3: 1 (omni laser, I would use turbo laser but dual laser works better for me)
4: 1 (dual turbo laser, by then I want to get away from omni weapons and dual turbo laser with enhancements is a great weapon)
5: 0 (I don't know I love the x-ray but maybe its coming to late in the game now, the other weapons I don't care for)
6: 0 (TeV 9 blaster is a good weapon but by time I can get it I am already into level 7 weapons)
7: 2 (both dual TeV 9 blaster and Hanzo blaster are good weapons)
8: 1 (Fusionfire howitzer, I don't know I just love this weapon )
9: 2 (Ares archcannon is good for old times sake but doesn't nearly preform as well as I would like, Qianlong archcannon for killing the last boss)
10: 1 (plasma cannon a fun nicely balanced weapon)

[digdug]

ok, so there are enough weapons, because players stick to even less weapons. It doesn't sound very nice to me but, here comes the second idea: let's introduce enemies with a number of imunities so that a player have to switch weapon in order to destroy them.

Taking from your example, you cannot stick with a x-ray laser of 1/4 of the ships have laser reflecting shields, and you canno stick to a fusionfire, if many capital ships have thermo "nearly immune" armors.

So my second idea is: let's make the players use all of the weapons, because there is a use for all of them.

[Betelgeuse]

so everyone will take a back up weapon just like they already do.
Also remember we can't equip weapons in flight so even if you have an enemy that is immune to every weapon you have equipped you would just skip them. It isn't fun to have every damage type equipped even if we could, it becomes a leveling your weapons problem (always equip the best of a damage type and that is a trivial decision)