Big brainstorm

[F50]

200-300 (more leaning to 200) game secconds, loans are supposed to be paid every month not every minute. That still should be a fair bit less than one payment per fair-sized system. Nebulous sytems might take 1500+ game secconds.

[Yugi]

This isn't really anything to do wih this particularly, but how about having a tax on Stargate travel? Something like 20 credits each time you go through, and you can pay 30 credits for a return "ticket" if you need to go through the other side? There would probably be a building for the payment of it...there of course should an "auto-pay" option, so you don't have to got through screens as that would become rather tedious.
Also, there could be passes (bought at this new station), and Black Market versions of them which would be about 1/4 of the price
Also, this would probbly be taxed only in Commonwealth systems.

[Burzmali]

Try this on for size.

As we all know, spaceships are very expensive. In fact, it is odd that the main character managed to acquire one at all! The solution, in the Traveller Universe, was to have the character in debt for a larger percent of the ship's value. It would be interesting to have each ship have a "debt" amount attatched to it that accumulated interest and needed to be paid regularly (i.e. everytime you landed at a Commonwealth station, though you could make payments from any station). At the very least, it would hurry the player along a little, help stop them from slumming in the first few systems gathering thousands of credits with minimal effort.

[OddBob]

As we all know, spaceships are very expensive. In fact, it is odd that the main character managed to acquire one at all! The solution, in the Traveller Universe, was to have the character in debt for a larger percent of the ship's value. It would be interesting to have each ship have a "debt" amount attatched to it that accumulated interest and needed to be paid regularly (i.e. everytime you landed at a Commonwealth station, though you could make payments from any station). At the very least, it would hurry the player along a little, help stop them from slumming in the first few systems gathering thousands of credits with minimal effort.

First of all, do we know that? A few thousand tons of steel and a smattering of nanomachines might not cost that much.

But anyhow, I'm against 'hurrying' the player. It punishes slower players.
Hanging around in a system for an hour and selling every piece of loot (i.e., 'slumming' which, by the way, can require five or six docks, and thus payments, for a few hundred credits) isn't an abuse that needs to be fixed, it's another playstyle that you are forbidding. Basically, you are narrowing even further the path the player must take.
You're also requiring that the player actively try and make money, which I don't usually start doing until a little before St. K's.

[Burzmali]

I think of it more like rewarding faster play and punishing player's who take advantage of a very generous enemy creation algorithm.

For ships, the CW is at war with Ares, since ships are the key to victory, a large percent of the civilian ship building industry has probably been devoted to military production. Any civilian ships produced are going to be in high demand. If ships were that cheap, outlaws would have fleets instead of 2 or 3 defenders.

[marr]

I think of it more like rewarding faster play and punishing player's who take advantage of a very generous enemy creation algorithm.

That's exactly the problem, you're talking about punishing the player! That's no way to run any kind of successful game, they're supposed to be fun, not work. If the enemy :: rewards ratio is wrong in the early systems, then that's the game's fault, not the player's, and it needs rebalancing.

I haven't noticed the early game being too fast, really. The excess money problem comes in later, once you've finished upgrading your ship and are left with no significant expenses. At that stage, having an outstanding loan wouldn't make much of a difference - you'd just pay it all, then be left in essentially the same situation. What's needed is more credit sinks like the trading station, less uber-effective insurance and, dare I say it, ship dealers.

[Fossaman]

Honestly, I don't think there is too much of an excess money problem at this point; sure, you can get 100K by the time you're a couple systems past St. Katharine's, but you end up having to save and scrimp so you can blow in on that fancy weapon, reactor, ringer ores, etc...

I haven't noticed that I've had too much in the way of 'extra' cash besides what I like to have on hand in case a few devices that I really want come along.

[Burzmali]

Of course you don't have any money problems if a Tinker is in the system before Charon

Here are examples of reasons why I believe the game is too slow in the beginning.

1. There is absolutely no reason not to complete as many Freigther Escort missions, even in the first system, as soon as you have an omni-laser and a targetting ROM.

2. There is no reason not to return to the first system over and over to sell off the entire stock of illegal goods from any BM station, and there is ZERO risk in doing it (even the ID is risk free if to "find" it on another ship).

3. A Hotel and Ice Farm two screens apart are instant profit.

4. Same as 2.) but with military goods from forts to BM stations.

And I don't consider all play-styles even. A play style that involves more risk and less safety nets should be encouraged over the "MMORPG beat up rabbits for hours to power up" style.

[Betelgeuse]

1. I don't play the Freigther Escort missions most of the time. I find them too slow for what they are giving me so unless I see something that I would want right away.

2. Another time thing. Illegal items are not that expencive and why take away one of the few early trading routes. Also I find that the black market stations (if I even find any) are rarely that close to the first system.

3. So is finding a really good item in the first system. You really can't balance the game for rare things. Plus I like it when those rare things happen it makes the game more fun that you can play different ways in different games.

4. Unlocking that is alot of work and often harder than just killing a couple places and a chance of getting an item that could help you (money by itself doesn't help)

as for a loan helping it would take money out of the game and alot of people would use it. That makes it a great money sink.

[Burzmali]

1. I don't play the Freigther Escort missions most of the time. I find them too slow for what they are giving me so unless I see something that I would want right away.

The problem I have is that that is little variety, the game should probably choose a destination randomly instead of the same ones for each level. Also, the hardest level can be completed by the Freighter immediately. Where's the challenge in that?

2. Another time thing. Illegal items are not that expencive and why take away one of the few early trading routes. Also I find that the black market stations (if I even find any) are rarely that close to the first system.

I just don't like the paradigm. There little reason not to clean out every BM station you run across if you have a Smuggler's hold. All it would take is a 1 in 20 chance of being caught a part of a sting and suffering a stiff fine to fix it for me. In the future, maybe it should hurt you relantionship with Domina. I just don't like that there is no downside to what is considered a highly illegal activity.

3. So is finding a really good item in the first system. You really can't balance the game for rare things. Plus I like it when those rare things happen it makes the game more fun that you can play different ways in different games.

I just think that if there is so much profit potential between stations so close together, other traders would be taking advantage of it too. At least, when a system is generated, if a buyer and seller are in the same system, the seller should have less on hand. Its the difference between finding a IF with 30-50 salmon and 10-20 on hand. In the future, I would love to see a full fledged economic system, including inter-system trade and attackes, but I am not holding my breathe.

4. Unlocking that is alot of work and often harder than just killing a couple places and a chance of getting an item that could help you (money by itself doesn't help).

As I have said before, I am less concerned about the military-BM trade route. But still, a 1 in 20 chance of being caught and losing you Military ID wouldn't hurt. To refer to Nethack, dipping a sword in a fountain might get you Excalibur, but it also can summon a demon or elemental.

as for a loan helping it would take money out of the game and alot of people would use it. That makes it a great money sink.

I agree that loans are a good idea to convince a player that moving on to find more bases to crack is a good idea. I would just like to see a loan attached to a starting ship a well, as an option. The sapphire may be yours free and clear, but if a more advanced ship wit a loan was available it would force you (if you choose) to rush the early systems to earn enough cash to cover the loan.

[F50]

I usually have enough cash to buy two Hanzo Blasters by the time I get Colonel rank from the Militia. WHen switching ships mid-game is implemented, it could potentially remove all credit hoards until ringer space especially if certain things make those ships unfeasible for late-game.

[Betelgeuse]

Hmm I would love risky things to do. The thing I don't want is everyone playing the game the same way. Credits are worth little in the game so being caught just for trading route doesn't seem worth it (the reward isn't worth the risk).

I would love having an experimental weapon testing (try it out the first time you fire it might blow up and damage your ship or it might turn out useless or it might turn out great) that would make a nice credit sink paying and hoping for a super weapon with a small chance of damaging all your equipment.

But I agree with the starting debt idea as long as the early systems are rebalanced to reflect the fact that you can't build up as fast (class 1 shields are worthless (at least for kenetic and starting reactors are a joke).

As for rushing I am not a fan of it. The late game systems are all about rushing because you have everything you would want anyway so it quickly becomes boring.

[Burzmali]

Hmm I would love risky things to do. The thing I don't want is everyone playing the game the same way. Credits are worth little in the game so being caught just for trading route doesn't seem worth it (the reward isn't worth the risk).

I wouldn't make the penatly imprisonment, just cash or specific items (IDs, illegals or military).

I would love having an experimental weapon testing (try it out the first time you fire it might blow up and damage your ship or it might turn out useless or it might turn out great) that would make a nice credit sink paying and hoping for a super weapon with a small chance of damaging all your equipment.

Good call. Personally, I am hoping for an "onFire" event, but, given the overhead it would consume, I'm not holding my breathe. Many of those events seem to be in the code already, try firing a damaged weapon sometime. Also, all weapons should probably be unidentified (IDed only by type and manufacture's name, i.e. "a laser weapon with the label Marsec X-1" until installed and fired or the proper Rowena's Guide is installed.

But I agree with the starting debt idea as long as the early systems are rebalanced to reflect the fact that you can't build up as fast (class 1 shields are worthless (at least for kenetic and starting reactors are a joke).

I imagine two options for the use of starting debt, one is a ship that is just a normal ship with equipment that makes it capable of breezing through a few systems, and the other is a ship with better stats for late game development (more slots, higher armor, etc.).

As for rushing I am not a fan of it. The late game systems are all about rushing because you have everything you would want anyway so it quickly becomes boring.

Oddly, I think late game is the one thing that Transcedence has over Nethack. The concept of Rins that can't easily be bought with credits definitely relieves some of the tedium that the Gehommon level of Nethack have.

[Betelgeuse]

couple things, I have not played nethack very much. Sorry to say it did not interest me. So the comparasons to it are lost on me. Secondly I don't want Transcendence to become Nethack. We should take lessons from it what works and what doesn't but we are not competing with Nethack we are competing with ourselves. 8)

as for risk I think the penalty for destroying stations is too much I used to blow up alot of commonweath stations (even with the cuiser) but with the instant death now you can't.

Personally the imprisonment idea has taken alot from the game. Most games just turn into find enemy station and kill it games with few distractions. I liked playing a bad guy (the black market is a poor substite, it seems more like a specalty store) maybe instead have a chance of each station (of the same soveran) becoming hostle to you with the more stations you kill the better the chance is. That way you are still punished for what you do but still have a chance of dealing with them (and you wouldn't know if they where hostle or not untill you got close)

Another thing that would be cool is a fake id type item from the black market that had a chance to clear all non black market crimes.

[OddBob]

At one point, there was a point to the following, but I'm not sure what it was.

Oddly, I think late game is the one thing that Transcedence has over Nethack. The concept of Rins that can't easily be bought with credits definitely relieves some of the tedium that the Gehommon level of Nethack have.

Really? To me, the endgame of Nethack is the best part. Granted, I've only been there a few times, and maybe that's why, but beginning game in Nethack is boring to me. You have nothing really to do except wander around hoping to find something to kill or something to kill things with so you can level up and do the cool stuff already.

But inTrascendence, it's the opposite. The beginning is awesome. The "wander around and kill things to get stronger tedium" ends usually in Eridani or immediately after. There's loads of choices and stuff to so. You're hunting down smugglers, deciding whether or not your can risk taking on that Nomad, looking for trade routes, trying to get that targeting ROM, scrounging fuel rods to buy that last Stiletto, and otherwise doing cool things.

But then, a little after St. K's, there are no more Nomads. There aren't any smuggler convouys, you have your targeting ROM and there are 10,000 enemies to tediously kill, and each one will give you a billion credits so you don't even care about trade routes and you can buy a thousand Stillettos with change you find under your pilot's seat. There's no real incentive for Rins, although this is getting fixed, but even so, it's not like it was in the beginning. You don't need anything with Rins. You've (probably) never had to sell your fuel for rins to get some ammo so your could take that last Ares Commune down.

I usually start over a few systems after St. K's because I get bored.

I just think that if there is so much profit potential between stations so close together, other traders would be taking advantage of it too. At least, when a system is generated, if a buyer and seller are in the same system, the seller should have less on hand. Its the difference between finding a IF with 30-50 salmon and 10-20 on hand. In the future, I would love to see a full fledged economic system, including inter-system trade and attackes, but I am not holding my breathe.

I like this. I also think that you can 'simulate' that full-on economy a little, by varying prices more, representing supply and demand and all that, even if they aren't being affacted by real world events. It would make trading mre of a challenge, and also more fun, because it's cool when you get salmon for 10 credits and the Ice Farm Flea Market, and then stumble upon a starving hotel next system that will give you 1000, after the last eight have all but made you pay for them to take it off your hands.