So you all prefer some "area of effect" mining instead of three? (scanner/miner/collector) devices which can be upgraded individually.
I personally like Bobby's ore scanner and Prophet's auto mining device. Yet I have no clue how to modify that auto mining device to fire only at asteroids previously marked by the scanner.
I would also replace the miners cargo hold with an "ore collector" to evade the conflict between installing a miner's or a smuggler's cargo hold.
What we agree on is that mining equipment should be generally available (if consumables in large? quantities) at mining stations - as it is now.
Mining rework thread
However: I see a chance to combine these two ideas:
- mining devices are sold by friendly mining and commonwealth stations
- "are of effect" mining charges/missiles other destructive things used for mining are strictly illegal and can be found on rogue/enemy/outlaw mining stations
- and the ferians sell the uiltimate mining equipment
Maybe the player could be charged for "illegal mining" if a commonwealth or allied ship detects the player is using one of these illegal devices
- mining devices are sold by friendly mining and commonwealth stations
- "are of effect" mining charges/missiles other destructive things used for mining are strictly illegal and can be found on rogue/enemy/outlaw mining stations
- and the ferians sell the uiltimate mining equipment
Maybe the player could be charged for "illegal mining" if a commonwealth or allied ship detects the player is using one of these illegal devices
This defeats the purpose of having mining charges.
The point is twofold: make mining not mind numbingly tedious and make mining not require completely crippling your ability to defend yourself. To do the latter requires reducing the device requirements, not increasing them.
Using three nonweapons rules out mining for the wolfen and eating three slots severely hampers the sapphire as well. Even the EI500 would notice having three slots occupied for one task, leaving it with no open slots for enhancers if a drive upgrade is used unless it goes shieldless.
The point is twofold: make mining not mind numbingly tedious and make mining not require completely crippling your ability to defend yourself. To do the latter requires reducing the device requirements, not increasing them.
Using three nonweapons rules out mining for the wolfen and eating three slots severely hampers the sapphire as well. Even the EI500 would notice having three slots occupied for one task, leaving it with no open slots for enhancers if a drive upgrade is used unless it goes shieldless.
I agree with Atarlost. Keeping it simple is important.
Mining charges should also not be in any way as efficient as mining lasers....but they should get the job done, and not take up valuable weapons/device spaces.
Mining charges should also not be in any way as efficient as mining lasers....but they should get the job done, and not take up valuable weapons/device spaces.
Mischievous local moderator. She/Her pronouns.
Probably forgot to add this:
I thought of devices that would not require a device slot. With the "new" enhancers for particle, ion, ... weapons even the freighter gets short on upgrade slots.
Mining being easy: I tried the auto miner and dont think mining could/should be easier than floating through the asteroid belt and collect the ore. (refueling from time to time ...)
Why I think it should be three devices (0 slots):
- reduces the initial cost: You could get a basic scanner/miner/ore collector in Eridiani
- each of the devices can be upgraded independently, reducing the cost per upgrade. You could gradually upgrade your equip once you have the money.
- mining charges remind me of the "F-bomb". It will probably hard to make them less effective against ships and stations than asteroid. With the low cost they could make a pretty good "weapon of mass destruction". Even delaying the detonation wouldnt probably help much. A ships course could be predicted and what keeps you to drop some near a station?
- devices and mining charges: I see the mining charges as a risky to use but quick profit option. Since I doubt that they would be easy to balance, its ok if they would do some damage to ships and stations when they are hard to get and the player runs the risk of ending the game when using them without extra caution.
I thought of devices that would not require a device slot. With the "new" enhancers for particle, ion, ... weapons even the freighter gets short on upgrade slots.
Mining being easy: I tried the auto miner and dont think mining could/should be easier than floating through the asteroid belt and collect the ore. (refueling from time to time ...)
Why I think it should be three devices (0 slots):
- reduces the initial cost: You could get a basic scanner/miner/ore collector in Eridiani
- each of the devices can be upgraded independently, reducing the cost per upgrade. You could gradually upgrade your equip once you have the money.
- mining charges remind me of the "F-bomb". It will probably hard to make them less effective against ships and stations than asteroid. With the low cost they could make a pretty good "weapon of mass destruction". Even delaying the detonation wouldnt probably help much. A ships course could be predicted and what keeps you to drop some near a station?
- devices and mining charges: I see the mining charges as a risky to use but quick profit option. Since I doubt that they would be easy to balance, its ok if they would do some damage to ships and stations when they are hard to get and the player runs the risk of ending the game when using them without extra caution.
Heres an idea... nanotech swarm mining. Nano is already established as in the Transcendence setting, and fairly advanced stuff, too.
To use it would be somewhat simple. Fire it like a weapon (it does nanotech damage type) at a target asteroid. Really spray the stuff around. Then, any asteroid that has ore starts producing it. Continuously. Until it's mined out. The nanotech is then programmed to either disassemble or shut down completely, and becomes just inert matter.
The bonus of this type is that unless programmed to be able to tell the difference, the nanotech mining bots will mine ANY they come into contact with. Asteroids... ships......... stations
. So ships and stations fired upon would not only take nanotech damage, they might also produce ore. I'd say that it should be found when docking with the dead space object...
And not to mention, but I will, this would obviously be a high level mining system, most likely sold by the teratons, and almost assuredly illegal matériel to the commonwealth.
There could also be a "smart" version that does a scan first to determine if the object is, in fact, an asteroid... and that safer version might not be illegal.
To use it would be somewhat simple. Fire it like a weapon (it does nanotech damage type) at a target asteroid. Really spray the stuff around. Then, any asteroid that has ore starts producing it. Continuously. Until it's mined out. The nanotech is then programmed to either disassemble or shut down completely, and becomes just inert matter.
The bonus of this type is that unless programmed to be able to tell the difference, the nanotech mining bots will mine ANY they come into contact with. Asteroids... ships......... stations
. So ships and stations fired upon would not only take nanotech damage, they might also produce ore. I'd say that it should be found when docking with the dead space object...And not to mention, but I will, this would obviously be a high level mining system, most likely sold by the teratons, and almost assuredly illegal matériel to the commonwealth.
There could also be a "smart" version that does a scan first to determine if the object is, in fact, an asteroid... and that safer version might not be illegal.
Nano-DISassembalers? Thats the Degen. stuff right?
Would it be posssible to make a spraygun? A morningstar-like blast that can take barrels as ammo?
Acid and Degen would do... a little bit of DA and a medium bit of Nano each, as well as mining (maybe only certain ores for acid and make Degen destroy items and add ores to wreckage)?
Meteorsteel dust would take down shields.
Hydrocarbon barrell+LOX = plasma spurt (flamethrower IN SPACE)?
Helium3 + H2 = some kind of plasma/thermo attack
Reactive barrells deal blast damage
Ablative blinds?
Radioactive waste gives actinide waste cannon spray?
Reflective blinds (longer than ablative)?
Repair nanoes and paste do negative damage?
Speaking of recycling, wasn't there a mod planned to expand tinkers by making components, so you could recycle items into components and have them make objects out of certain combonations?
Would it be posssible to make a spraygun? A morningstar-like blast that can take barrels as ammo?
Acid and Degen would do... a little bit of DA and a medium bit of Nano each, as well as mining (maybe only certain ores for acid and make Degen destroy items and add ores to wreckage)?
Meteorsteel dust would take down shields.
Hydrocarbon barrell+LOX = plasma spurt (flamethrower IN SPACE)?
Helium3 + H2 = some kind of plasma/thermo attack
Reactive barrells deal blast damage
Ablative blinds?
Radioactive waste gives actinide waste cannon spray?
Reflective blinds (longer than ablative)?
Repair nanoes and paste do negative damage?
Speaking of recycling, wasn't there a mod planned to expand tinkers by making components, so you could recycle items into components and have them make objects out of certain combonations?
I've tried putting "laser:0" damage on a "mining5" weapon when making the Maelstrom. It had no effect on asteroids until I put at least "laser:1".Atarlost wrote:You can without much difficulty make a weapon that does nothing at all to ships or stations. Except display the hit effect against stations since that isn't contingent on doing damage.
This "just hit-effect" mining you've mentioned, would it use a virtual attack?
Apart from all these interesting ideas about new mining weapons and/or devices Im currently playing a game with Bobby's ore scanners.
I think they are already a great help and speed up mining dramatically. Its really nice if you know which rocks to shoot.
I would even say that his scanners could be a bit too effective, since they perform a scan in about 0s and are capable of scanning several asteroids at once....
I think they are already a great help and speed up mining dramatically. Its really nice if you know which rocks to shoot.
I would even say that his scanners could be a bit too effective, since they perform a scan in about 0s and are capable of scanning several asteroids at once....
Whats generally a bit annoying is collecting the ore:
I takes the keystrokes "dblldl" and involves three dockscreens... Stripping this down to a single screen which just displays the ore and an option to leave.
I takes the keystrokes "dblldl" and involves three dockscreens... Stripping this down to a single screen which just displays the ore and an option to leave.
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alterecco
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Regarding tuning vanilla gameplay towards bearable mining:
After the idea of area of effect mining got passed on here, it has become the main road I would like to see mining evolve into for the near future... Sure, mining could eventually evolve into a more complex activity later on, but for now I think it is important we focus on the current state of the game. How can we make mining viable for all ship types, while giving slightly higher profit returns for the less combat oriented classes (which imo is one of the purposes of mining)?
Regarding AOE mining and how I see it:
It would require adding at least one new item to the game, namely a mining missile (remote mining charge?). These missiles would be sold at mining stations almost always and in great quantities, otherwise found around other shops that sell ammo and on some of the rouge miners as loot. It may be interesting to create multiple levels of missiles for higher level ore, but I am not sure that mechanic is worth it.
The missile should be rather heavy, thereby favouring the freighter class ships, but should be deployable through a standard missile launcher, thereby allowing all classes to start mining very early. The high weight of the missiles would limit the amount a gunship could carry, thereby forcing more round trips (buy missiles, mine, sell/stash, restock.. refuel?) and raising fuel expenses... but at least you would not have to blast every god damned rock!
There should not be an ore scanner involved in this (it really makes mining silly), which means the player would have to exhibit some skill in shooting the missiles, since hitting the same asteroid twice would have no extra effect. This means, a skilled miner positions himself carefully before firing (but it would be orders of magnitude less tedious than using the laser).
The missile should not be dirt cheap. It has the potential to mine several asteroids at a time, so the gains of one lucky shot can be very large (the way the current asteroid yield works!). Depending on the size of the AOE, I would say somewhere between 35 to 100 a pop (for the first level available). My pricing may be completely off.
Now, I am not very familiar with the weapons construction in T, so I am not sure if this requires additional coding from George, but I have a feeling it can be done reliably right now. It would be cool if some of the specialists stepped up ;) Eventually, it would be cool to see the solution as a part of vanilla (I think if it is simple enough and good enough, George would gladly adopt it)
Regarding multiple devices and diversifying mining... I think having a rich mining experience (multiple mechanics, challenges and quest) would be great for T. Perhaps coupled with a crafting side... however, I feel this is an entirely different beast and should be tackled separately... perhaps in a mod?
Lets keep this thread alive and the ideas coming! :D
After the idea of area of effect mining got passed on here, it has become the main road I would like to see mining evolve into for the near future... Sure, mining could eventually evolve into a more complex activity later on, but for now I think it is important we focus on the current state of the game. How can we make mining viable for all ship types, while giving slightly higher profit returns for the less combat oriented classes (which imo is one of the purposes of mining)?
Regarding AOE mining and how I see it:
It would require adding at least one new item to the game, namely a mining missile (remote mining charge?). These missiles would be sold at mining stations almost always and in great quantities, otherwise found around other shops that sell ammo and on some of the rouge miners as loot. It may be interesting to create multiple levels of missiles for higher level ore, but I am not sure that mechanic is worth it.
The missile should be rather heavy, thereby favouring the freighter class ships, but should be deployable through a standard missile launcher, thereby allowing all classes to start mining very early. The high weight of the missiles would limit the amount a gunship could carry, thereby forcing more round trips (buy missiles, mine, sell/stash, restock.. refuel?) and raising fuel expenses... but at least you would not have to blast every god damned rock!
There should not be an ore scanner involved in this (it really makes mining silly), which means the player would have to exhibit some skill in shooting the missiles, since hitting the same asteroid twice would have no extra effect. This means, a skilled miner positions himself carefully before firing (but it would be orders of magnitude less tedious than using the laser).
The missile should not be dirt cheap. It has the potential to mine several asteroids at a time, so the gains of one lucky shot can be very large (the way the current asteroid yield works!). Depending on the size of the AOE, I would say somewhere between 35 to 100 a pop (for the first level available). My pricing may be completely off.
Now, I am not very familiar with the weapons construction in T, so I am not sure if this requires additional coding from George, but I have a feeling it can be done reliably right now. It would be cool if some of the specialists stepped up ;) Eventually, it would be cool to see the solution as a part of vanilla (I think if it is simple enough and good enough, George would gladly adopt it)
Regarding multiple devices and diversifying mining... I think having a rich mining experience (multiple mechanics, challenges and quest) would be great for T. Perhaps coupled with a crafting side... however, I feel this is an entirely different beast and should be tackled separately... perhaps in a mod?
Lets keep this thread alive and the ideas coming! :D
Last edited by alterecco on Thu Sep 30, 2010 2:20 am, edited 2 times in total.
Making it use a launcher would lock anyone wishing to mine into that launcher. While that might be okay if it were an underused launcher like the MAG if it were a NAMI missile you might as well just remove all other early game launchers. Mining would basically be free money contingent on having the right launcher if the charges appeared in loot or shops that were already near asteroids to mine.
It's far better to make a useable item, and very easy. This should, though, have its damage canceled in events against armor and shields for balance reasons.
It's far better to make a useable item, and very easy. This should, though, have its damage canceled in events against armor and shields for balance reasons.