How do we make armor useful?
Right now armor isn't very useful and all the suggestions for improving it tend to be nerf shields or give them tons of hp.
One thought I just had is for a weapon that can have a different effect when your shields are up then when they are down. Kind of like ion weapons do different things when your shields are up (damage) then when you are down (like blinding). Weapons that do effects when your shield is up and damage when your shield is down would be interesting and make armor more attractive.
hard problem armor edition
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Betelgeuse
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Fossaman
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The simplest method would probably be to make armor influence your shields. Give them more HP, make them more resistant or less resistant to specific damage types, etc. This would allow for player usage of armor without making enemy ships impossible to kill.
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<rant>
I hate shields in general - they are a relic of Star Trek (and similar) where a method to create tension was needed without having to damage the ship and rebuild it each episode. Fine for a TV space opera, silly elsewhere. Frankly they are sillyness and I wish they didn't exist. However I am not really expecting this to happen so the following of course assumes they exist. However it nevers hurts to deviate from the regular scifi trope, saying maybe shields sometimes let things through, maybe they have mass, maybe they are opaque, maybe they don't require energy to maintain, maybe they don't require energy to be inputted equal to that absorbed, maybe they don't all work the same way and maybe the shield is only as strong as the bolts holding it to the hull.
</rant>
I think shields NEED to be nerfed, simply. By changing the fundamental nature of how they work, to make them actually interesting and novel and not simply a silly overused cliche.
There are several things that I have come up with, ranging from drastic to relatively similar to current.
The first is simple in concept: you must drop your shields to fire (note that armor would need to be strengthened as well for this - as it would come under fire often). This would be done automatically when you hit the fire key for enough time for your weapon to fire and a little bit of extra time when your shields remain down (removing or shortening this grace period results in less of a change). Betel and I had quite a discussion on this on IRC about whether it favors slow firing weapons or not. If you have a slow firing weapon, your shields will be up more often, while if you have a fast firing one, they will of course be down more often.
I propose this is not a problem - first of all, assume a fight between the slow firing Ship B and the fast firing Ship A where both ships sit still and fire at maximum rate. Each ship has equal damage per second and armor/shield H Every time Ship B's shields go down, some of Ship A's fire is likely to get through due to the fact that it is striking rapidly. The chance of Ship B's single shot arriving at a time when Ship A's shields are down is less certain, but depending on the fire rate (I do not envision any weapon causing the shields to be down more than 80% of the time. Some weapons may need to be slowed or the shields down time adjusted per weapon) so in this stationary battle ship B is probably likely to win.
However battles do not take place from stationary positions, nor to ships fire all the time. Taking into account the relatively low frequency of attacks from ship b, ship a can stop firing when he sees ship b fire, wait for the projectile to hit and STILL come out ahead (as his shots have struck armor when B fired). Knowing when to fire and when to keep your shields up will be an important factor (and the AI will need to be taught it as well). Also the less frequent shots from the slow firing weapon are more likely to be dodged than the fast - balance remains the same.
The second is a takeoff on that which is in theory the same but can be simulated actually currently with mods: shields still do not let enemy weapons fire pass but they flicker, on and off at a very fast rate - the player of course knows the frequency at which they flicker (which is constantly changing btw) and his weapons are timed to pass through them. enemy weapons will encounter the shield more often than not. This is simply simulated in game by giving every shield a passthrough like the Trenton, although with the added effect of perhaps via plots or trickery (hacking! we need more CPU things) being able to determine the frequencies at which an enemy's shield works and thus bypassing their shields as well as catching all their weapons fire on your shields. I am not sure how much I like this one. Note that all of these solutions will require increased armor HP (so it won't be as annoying as the trenton is now)
The third is a sort of maintenance system = all shields will have a max number of points they can regen in a given amount of time. If they go over this point, regen starts to happen slower, and take more power. If they go very much farther over that point, the shield starts to degrade - it's maximum HP starts to drop, it's regen rate takes a more permanent hit, it starts to let the occasional weapon through. Eventually it fails completely. The good news is that this damage is repairable with maintenance kits. Whenever your shields are reduced to zero via normal weapons fire, they will always take a set amount of damage. All this is represented to the player with a heat gauge like that in weapons like the tritium cannon - every time a shield regens a point the temperature increases, and it slowly decreases over time. A smart player will drop his shields manualyl before they start to degrade. The idea is that situations where your shields reach the breaking point will occur somewhat often, usually during sustained attacks that in the current game would not break your shield because the attack is equal to your regen rate (a shield constantly regenerating will go over the limit very quickly - so even if that pirate can't overcome the regen rate normally if it hammers at you long enough he will drop your shield one way or the other)
I will address some more issues tomorrow
I hate shields in general - they are a relic of Star Trek (and similar) where a method to create tension was needed without having to damage the ship and rebuild it each episode. Fine for a TV space opera, silly elsewhere. Frankly they are sillyness and I wish they didn't exist. However I am not really expecting this to happen so the following of course assumes they exist. However it nevers hurts to deviate from the regular scifi trope, saying maybe shields sometimes let things through, maybe they have mass, maybe they are opaque, maybe they don't require energy to maintain, maybe they don't require energy to be inputted equal to that absorbed, maybe they don't all work the same way and maybe the shield is only as strong as the bolts holding it to the hull.
</rant>
I think shields NEED to be nerfed, simply. By changing the fundamental nature of how they work, to make them actually interesting and novel and not simply a silly overused cliche.
There are several things that I have come up with, ranging from drastic to relatively similar to current.
The first is simple in concept: you must drop your shields to fire (note that armor would need to be strengthened as well for this - as it would come under fire often). This would be done automatically when you hit the fire key for enough time for your weapon to fire and a little bit of extra time when your shields remain down (removing or shortening this grace period results in less of a change). Betel and I had quite a discussion on this on IRC about whether it favors slow firing weapons or not. If you have a slow firing weapon, your shields will be up more often, while if you have a fast firing one, they will of course be down more often.
I propose this is not a problem - first of all, assume a fight between the slow firing Ship B and the fast firing Ship A where both ships sit still and fire at maximum rate. Each ship has equal damage per second and armor/shield H Every time Ship B's shields go down, some of Ship A's fire is likely to get through due to the fact that it is striking rapidly. The chance of Ship B's single shot arriving at a time when Ship A's shields are down is less certain, but depending on the fire rate (I do not envision any weapon causing the shields to be down more than 80% of the time. Some weapons may need to be slowed or the shields down time adjusted per weapon) so in this stationary battle ship B is probably likely to win.
However battles do not take place from stationary positions, nor to ships fire all the time. Taking into account the relatively low frequency of attacks from ship b, ship a can stop firing when he sees ship b fire, wait for the projectile to hit and STILL come out ahead (as his shots have struck armor when B fired). Knowing when to fire and when to keep your shields up will be an important factor (and the AI will need to be taught it as well). Also the less frequent shots from the slow firing weapon are more likely to be dodged than the fast - balance remains the same.
The second is a takeoff on that which is in theory the same but can be simulated actually currently with mods: shields still do not let enemy weapons fire pass but they flicker, on and off at a very fast rate - the player of course knows the frequency at which they flicker (which is constantly changing btw) and his weapons are timed to pass through them. enemy weapons will encounter the shield more often than not. This is simply simulated in game by giving every shield a passthrough like the Trenton, although with the added effect of perhaps via plots or trickery (hacking! we need more CPU things) being able to determine the frequencies at which an enemy's shield works and thus bypassing their shields as well as catching all their weapons fire on your shields. I am not sure how much I like this one. Note that all of these solutions will require increased armor HP (so it won't be as annoying as the trenton is now)
The third is a sort of maintenance system = all shields will have a max number of points they can regen in a given amount of time. If they go over this point, regen starts to happen slower, and take more power. If they go very much farther over that point, the shield starts to degrade - it's maximum HP starts to drop, it's regen rate takes a more permanent hit, it starts to let the occasional weapon through. Eventually it fails completely. The good news is that this damage is repairable with maintenance kits. Whenever your shields are reduced to zero via normal weapons fire, they will always take a set amount of damage. All this is represented to the player with a heat gauge like that in weapons like the tritium cannon - every time a shield regens a point the temperature increases, and it slowly decreases over time. A smart player will drop his shields manualyl before they start to degrade. The idea is that situations where your shields reach the breaking point will occur somewhat often, usually during sustained attacks that in the current game would not break your shield because the attack is equal to your regen rate (a shield constantly regenerating will go over the limit very quickly - so even if that pirate can't overcome the regen rate normally if it hammers at you long enough he will drop your shield one way or the other)
I will address some more issues tomorrow
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Betelgeuse
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ok lets say we get rid of shields would armor suddenly become interesting? I would say no all they would be is non regenerating shields. At least with shields you can have some interesting things with powering the shields and things that make them come down. One problem is that even if your armor is damaged more it would just slow the game down by just having people wait for there armor to slowly regenerate in relatively safe places (doesn't have to be on a planet).
As for your ideas
1. You forget you don't fight one on one most of the time so you would want your shields up more. This would also encourage stand off fighting alot like omni weapons and tracking weapons and they don't need more boosting.
2. Everything being pass through can be a workable solution but just increasing the hp of the armors is boring. Please think of things that would make armors more than just non regenerating shields.
3. Sounds very complex, I do like a maintenance system for devices but the stuff with the slowing down regen and using more energy is an unneeded part. This also has the standoff fighting problem.
As for your ideas
1. You forget you don't fight one on one most of the time so you would want your shields up more. This would also encourage stand off fighting alot like omni weapons and tracking weapons and they don't need more boosting.
2. Everything being pass through can be a workable solution but just increasing the hp of the armors is boring. Please think of things that would make armors more than just non regenerating shields.
3. Sounds very complex, I do like a maintenance system for devices but the stuff with the slowing down regen and using more energy is an unneeded part. This also has the standoff fighting problem.
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Charon Mass of Goo
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Once your shields are down, they become damaged, and need to be repaired to work again. This encourages one to be more careful with those More Expensive shields. It also encourages strategy, "Hmm... If I combine these shields with this armor..." and such. That way, if your shields go down, and you have the right kind of armor, you will be fine until you can dock again.
For example:
You have kinetic resistant, laser vulnerable shields.
You would want armor that counter acts your weaknesses for when your shields are damaged.
Kinetic resistant, laser vulnerable shields + Laser resistant armor (or something) = Oh my god, armor suddenly just got interesting and important!
For example:
You have kinetic resistant, laser vulnerable shields.
You would want armor that counter acts your weaknesses for when your shields are damaged.
Kinetic resistant, laser vulnerable shields + Laser resistant armor (or something) = Oh my god, armor suddenly just got interesting and important!
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Shields can also be related to other things such as detection - combined with a long range detection system (see the "more exploring" thread) a ship with it's shields up may show up much more readily, giving you an incentive to drop them - granted not a large one (and you would need that AI that doesn't beeline towards you everytime) but it would be there.
Expanding on the shields are not transparent idea, as your shields take damage, they start to glow red as they re radiate the energy absorbed - filling your screen with a slight tint. As the damage increases the color gets stronger and moves up the spectrum until the whole screen is white and you can't see anything. You can get sensors to poke out of the shield but they can be shot off. (that is a feasible alternate method actually, have them opaque all the time and rely on a limited supply of sensors for seeing. These shields I am describing work like the langston field in The Mote in God's Eye)
You can also impose a time limit on the time shields can even be up (with the default being no shields) - it would encourage waiting around (all methods of requiring a shield to drop so) unless you start think of your shields as extra instead of the norm. This is the same "problem" with 'must drop to fire' - you think that shields are everything and without them no one will play or that will wait around all the time. You think this because right now playing with only armor is suicide.
That's why, first, before anything else can be done, armor needs an HP boost, so that it is feasible to play a shieldless game. (of course this alone is not balanced) Then you need to change the shields (nerf them if you want to call it that). Make armor your bread and butter and shields your unreliable backup thing. Make shields opaque or temporary, give them a significant mass, make them optional is what I am really proposing. Half the ships in game do not have shields already - make it a possibility for the player to do so. Drop on fire or a time limit is no problem when shields are not 90% of you HP - they are the inconveniences that balance the very powerful feature of regeneration (a device slot being another one as well)
Of course I just hit on something important - most of you enemies don't have shields. Most of your enemies are weaker than you, in fact nearly all of them are. Increasing the HP of armor tips the scales in their favor because everyone in the game uses the same equipment and now the player does not always have the advantage of shields. I think there is a simple solution to this - less enemies. They will be stronger enemies so it's fine to have less of them - mostly this is just for the fighter craft that spam you late game.
Let's think of some things that make shields more than regenerating armor. In other words I am saying that this is not an armor problem, it is a shield problem.
Expanding on the shields are not transparent idea, as your shields take damage, they start to glow red as they re radiate the energy absorbed - filling your screen with a slight tint. As the damage increases the color gets stronger and moves up the spectrum until the whole screen is white and you can't see anything. You can get sensors to poke out of the shield but they can be shot off. (that is a feasible alternate method actually, have them opaque all the time and rely on a limited supply of sensors for seeing. These shields I am describing work like the langston field in The Mote in God's Eye)
You can also impose a time limit on the time shields can even be up (with the default being no shields) - it would encourage waiting around (all methods of requiring a shield to drop so) unless you start think of your shields as extra instead of the norm. This is the same "problem" with 'must drop to fire' - you think that shields are everything and without them no one will play or that will wait around all the time. You think this because right now playing with only armor is suicide.
That's why, first, before anything else can be done, armor needs an HP boost, so that it is feasible to play a shieldless game. (of course this alone is not balanced) Then you need to change the shields (nerf them if you want to call it that). Make armor your bread and butter and shields your unreliable backup thing. Make shields opaque or temporary, give them a significant mass, make them optional is what I am really proposing. Half the ships in game do not have shields already - make it a possibility for the player to do so. Drop on fire or a time limit is no problem when shields are not 90% of you HP - they are the inconveniences that balance the very powerful feature of regeneration (a device slot being another one as well)
Of course I just hit on something important - most of you enemies don't have shields. Most of your enemies are weaker than you, in fact nearly all of them are. Increasing the HP of armor tips the scales in their favor because everyone in the game uses the same equipment and now the player does not always have the advantage of shields. I think there is a simple solution to this - less enemies. They will be stronger enemies so it's fine to have less of them - mostly this is just for the fighter craft that spam you late game.
Increasing the HP of armors is necessary for them to be even close to shields in power. I'm not suggesting this be the only solution. As for the latter statement, armor IS just non regenerating shields.Everything being pass through can be a workable solution but just increasing the hp of the armors is boring. Please think of things that would make armors more than just non regenerating shields.
Let's think of some things that make shields more than regenerating armor. In other words I am saying that this is not an armor problem, it is a shield problem.
I believe the (temporary) regen slowing is an important part. It is one level before the permanent damage starts so that your shield can fatigue without any long term consequences.I do like a maintenance system for devices but the stuff with the slowing down regen and using more energy is an unneeded part.
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digdug
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armor becomes more important if some weapons could "skip shields".
The weapon simply pas throught a shield (with no damage) and hit directly the armor.
The shield skipping ability could be general, so it skips all shields, or determined by the level of the weapon or the level of he shield. FOr example "skips all shields below level 7"
The weapon simply pas throught a shield (with no damage) and hit directly the armor.
The shield skipping ability could be general, so it skips all shields, or determined by the level of the weapon or the level of he shield. FOr example "skips all shields below level 7"
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Charon Mass of Goo
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The problem with that, digdug, is that there tend to be more weapons than shields, therefore not many in each level catagory, and higher levels are not to common for shields either. The most common high level shield i have seen are the Solon and yoki 300 or w/e. And those suck for me.digdug wrote:armor becomes more important if some weapons could "skip shields".
The weapon simply pas throught a shield (with no damage) and hit directly the armor.
The shield skipping ability could be general, so it skips all shields, or determined by the level of the weapon or the level of he shield. FOr example "skips all shields below level 7"
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Fossaman
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A simpler method for that would be setting the absorbtion to 0% on one or two damage types, like the dark damage types used to be. Remember when Penitent Cannons spat right through your shields without touching them? That was fun. I almost wish we could have that back.
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george moromisato
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Ideas to encourage playing without shields:
1. More meteorsteel armor: Regenerating meteorsteel. Hybrid meteorsteel that knocks 50% off shield strength. Complete line of meteorsteel (so that you can use it in the higher levels)
2. Device that takes a shield slot and auto-repairs armor.
3. Device that takes a shield slot and disintegrates all non-energy damage.
4. Device that takes a shield slot and doubles armor HP (or increases armor resistance)
Ideas to make armor more important:
5. More shield-destroying weapons: do heavy damage to shields but only light (if any) damage to armor
6. Armor that increases shield hp (for some class of shields) but decreases regen rate
7. Mini-autons that latch on to ship (passing through shields) and pierce armor.
8. Make most shields weaker against mass damage and stronger against energy damage. Make armors the reverse (though not as much)
Ideas to make armor more interesting
9. Make armor much harder to damage, but also make it harder to replace. Every ship class needs custom armor--instead of finding or buying armor segments, you need to go to a shipyard and create armor for the ship. Perhaps player gets to choose which metals go into the armor... [BTW: I'm not crazy about this idea, but I'm just throwing it out there.]
10. A series of armor types that can repair themselves from raw ore.
12. A series of armor types that can be adjusted to resist different kinds of damage (i.e., tune to resist either laser or kinetic damage)
13. A series of armor types that are nearly invulnerable except for a single weakness, unknown to the player. E.g., player finds armor and installs it; it is resistant to everything *except* howitzers, which pretty much destroy it.
14. A series of armor types that can be easily enhanced with found items (e.g., Plasteel Armor Frame: Install it as armor. By default if offers very little protection. The player can [Use] the armor to add a segment of plasteel armor. This adds hit points to the armor. Beyond a certain point, you can't enhance the armor.)
15. A series of armor types that "adapt" to any damage type that they encounter. E.g., the first time it gets hit by a laser, it takes 100% damage; the second time, it takes 99% damage, the third time, it takes 98% damage, etc.
16. A series of armor types that absorb damage to regenerate. E.g., the armor has 100 hp and regenerates a max of (100 - current) / 10 hp per hit. Imagine that the armor is down to 50 hp and gets hit with 8 points of damage. The max it can regenerate is (100 - 50) / 10 = 5. Thus 5 of the 8 points of damage regenerate the armor (now up to 55) and the remaining 3 points do damage (now down to 52).
1. More meteorsteel armor: Regenerating meteorsteel. Hybrid meteorsteel that knocks 50% off shield strength. Complete line of meteorsteel (so that you can use it in the higher levels)
2. Device that takes a shield slot and auto-repairs armor.
3. Device that takes a shield slot and disintegrates all non-energy damage.
4. Device that takes a shield slot and doubles armor HP (or increases armor resistance)
Ideas to make armor more important:
5. More shield-destroying weapons: do heavy damage to shields but only light (if any) damage to armor
6. Armor that increases shield hp (for some class of shields) but decreases regen rate
7. Mini-autons that latch on to ship (passing through shields) and pierce armor.
8. Make most shields weaker against mass damage and stronger against energy damage. Make armors the reverse (though not as much)
Ideas to make armor more interesting
9. Make armor much harder to damage, but also make it harder to replace. Every ship class needs custom armor--instead of finding or buying armor segments, you need to go to a shipyard and create armor for the ship. Perhaps player gets to choose which metals go into the armor... [BTW: I'm not crazy about this idea, but I'm just throwing it out there.]
10. A series of armor types that can repair themselves from raw ore.
12. A series of armor types that can be adjusted to resist different kinds of damage (i.e., tune to resist either laser or kinetic damage)
13. A series of armor types that are nearly invulnerable except for a single weakness, unknown to the player. E.g., player finds armor and installs it; it is resistant to everything *except* howitzers, which pretty much destroy it.
14. A series of armor types that can be easily enhanced with found items (e.g., Plasteel Armor Frame: Install it as armor. By default if offers very little protection. The player can [Use] the armor to add a segment of plasteel armor. This adds hit points to the armor. Beyond a certain point, you can't enhance the armor.)
15. A series of armor types that "adapt" to any damage type that they encounter. E.g., the first time it gets hit by a laser, it takes 100% damage; the second time, it takes 99% damage, the third time, it takes 98% damage, etc.
16. A series of armor types that absorb damage to regenerate. E.g., the armor has 100 hp and regenerates a max of (100 - current) / 10 hp per hit. Imagine that the armor is down to 50 hp and gets hit with 8 points of damage. The max it can regenerate is (100 - 50) / 10 = 5. Thus 5 of the 8 points of damage regenerate the armor (now up to 55) and the remaining 3 points do damage (now down to 52).
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Betelgeuse
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very cool list George
couple more thoughts
semi meteorsteel armors: if a shield is equipped it lowers the armors resistance, or other semi meteorsteel armors would weaken the shield
a weak shield that when it takes damage it repairs that amount of damage to the armor
couple more thoughts
semi meteorsteel armors: if a shield is equipped it lowers the armors resistance, or other semi meteorsteel armors would weaken the shield
a weak shield that when it takes damage it repairs that amount of damage to the armor
Crying is not a proper retort!
Okay I will get off the anti shield crusade for now. 
There can be some armor additions - extra, weak plates that you can put on but they are not repairable. So you could top off your armors with say a 4 HP armor that reflects lasers or something.
Another thing is temporary coatings, separate from the regular coatings - they degrade over time. Some can even have two effects, like a very strong resistance that turns into a (temporary) degen after it is done.
One last one is armors with corporate logos that companies pay you to use -
. Maybe they could provide free repairs.
Another thigns I thought of is the ability at shipyards to cut down plates and double the amount of facings you get - even though each facing is at half strength.
One thing however - if you add all these special types of armors, why would anyone use the "regular" armors?
There can be some armor additions - extra, weak plates that you can put on but they are not repairable. So you could top off your armors with say a 4 HP armor that reflects lasers or something.
Another thing is temporary coatings, separate from the regular coatings - they degrade over time. Some can even have two effects, like a very strong resistance that turns into a (temporary) degen after it is done.
One last one is armors with corporate logos that companies pay you to use -
. Maybe they could provide free repairs.Another thigns I thought of is the ability at shipyards to cut down plates and double the amount of facings you get - even though each facing is at half strength.
One thing however - if you add all these special types of armors, why would anyone use the "regular" armors?
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Fossaman
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If the special types are really expensive, the regular types will still get used. If regular types are upgradeable to massive HP, they would still be useful. And if the special types were also really rare...well then.
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Charon Mass of Goo
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Hmm...
just kidding.
"Oh noez its teh brog!!!"
"Resistance is futile, prepare to be assimilated."
"Oh noez tehy got teh jimmeh! Run john run!"
"YARGH!"
I also like oddbobs idea:
CharonMassofGoo <----- greedy bastard
Star Trek much? I love the idea, but if that is incorporated, we would need to put the Borg in the gamegeorge moromisato wrote:15. A series of armor types that "adapt" to any damage type that they encounter. E.g., the first time it gets hit by a laser, it takes 100% damage; the second time, it takes 99% damage, the third time, it takes 98% damage, etc.
just kidding."Oh noez its teh brog!!!"
"Resistance is futile, prepare to be assimilated."
"Oh noez tehy got teh jimmeh! Run john run!"
"YARGH!"
I also like oddbobs idea:
If you get paid to use it, I'm all for it.OddBob wrote:One last one is armors with corporate logos that companies pay you to use - Smile. Maybe they could provide free repairs.
CharonMassofGoo <----- greedy bastard
Charon Fizz-Soda! It's Red! It tastes like Awesomness! AND PIRATES MADE IT! Better than Eridani Mineral Water too!