Game Balance

[george moromisato]

For R3 and beyond I'm working on game balance, so I'd love to hear people's opinions.

I looked through the last thread on this topic and tabulated people's thoughts on weapons and shields:

FAVORITE ITEM

1. IM90 (6 votes)
2. Kaidun shield (4 votes)
3. Fusionfire howitzer (3 votes)
4. Starcannon (3 votes)
5. Blue etherium crystal (3 votes)

OVERPOWERED ITEM

1. Blue etherium crystal (6 votes)
2. Class V deflector (4 votes)
3. IM90 (3 votes)
4. Starcannon (3 votes)
5. Nephren P5 (2 votes)

UNDERPOWERED ITEM

1. Qianlong archannon (4 votes)
2. Lazarus shield (1 vote)
3. Dvalin ion9 (1 vote)
4. Ares plasma cannon (1 vote)
5. Rasiermesser launcher (1 vote)

Here are some of the things I'm planning to do for balance. Please let me know your thoughts:

1. In RC1 I made field crystals rarer, which doesn't really solve the problem. Instead, I'm going to try to make field crystals "burn out" after a while. I think this might balance them better (and I would make them as common as they were in 0.99). Thoughts?

2. The class V deflector probably just needs more power consumption to balance (I can't remember if I already did that in RC1).

3. I don't know what to do about the IM90.

4. I'm considering changing the Kaidun so that it requires 2 device slots. That makes it suitable for the freighter (which needs it) but less desirable for the Wolfen. Thoughts?

5. I buffed the Qianlong in RC1/2--interested in thoughts.

6. I'm considering re-balancing the range of weapons (based on another thread). I think it makes sense to reduce the range of many energy weapons.

7. I'm interested in what people think about the damage type resistance curve for shields. Hopefully they make armor more important, but I think I also need to buff armor a little bit. In particular, I've added more armor repairing items to the mid/late gate (based on suggestions from fossaman). I've also made meteorsteel rad-resistant (based on suggestions from Wolfy). Other thoughts?

8. Finally, one more question: what are some of your favorite/cool items that you would like to use, but cannot because they are underpowered?

[digdug]

1. In RC1 I made field crystals rarer, which doesn't really solve the problem. Instead, I'm going to try to make field crystals "burn out" after a while. I think this might balance them better (and I would make them as common as they were in 0.99). Thoughts?

most of the fixes for ventari and ares made the blue crystal less "awesome", the real problem with that item, (as already said) is that ion weapons are too used in late game.
But here comes the shield nerfing to the rescue!
Now we can use laser and kinetic weapons in late game as support weapons, making ion reflecting crystals even less useful.
I think that the solution is to diversify even more the weapons used.

BTW, that means I love the new nerfed shields, there is still probably space for optimization, but we asked for more importance for the armors, and less boundaries in weapons progression, and the nerfed shields fixed those requests

3. I don't know what to do about the IM90.

Make it 2 slots, like the Kaidun, and increase the WMD (so that it's an all round weapon for the freighter that has only 2 slots)



PS: I also have a more radical idea for balancing slots (that has been proposed a couple of times in the past)
Multiply by 10 the number of slots of items and ships.
In this way we can balance better the number of slots of the devices, like making 1.5 slots shield (that would be 15 slots in the new system) or 0.9 slots weapon (that would be 9 slots)

[Prophet]

1. In RC1 I made field crystals rarer, which doesn't really solve the problem. Instead, I'm going to try to make field crystals "burn out" after a while. I think this might balance them better (and I would make them as common as they were in 0.99). Thoughts?

With the new shield nerf, the crystals are less important as a result of shields being less important (and armor being more so). Perhaps remove the decayed crystal so any enhancement made to a shield is permanent? What about decreasing the resistance to another damage type? What about having the shield draw more power if it is enhanced?

6. I'm considering re-balancing the range of weapons (based on another thread). I think it makes sense to reduce the range of many energy weapons.

I would welcome this change. I would like to see the weapons be more niche oriented as was put forward in another post. Lasers, ion, plasma, and other energy based weapons should have short range. While all kinetic weapons would have larger range, use ammo, less power.

7. I'm interested in what people think about the damage type resistance curve for shields. Hopefully they make armor more important, but I think I also need to buff armor a little bit. In particular, I've added more armor repairing items to the mid/late gate (based on suggestions from fossaman). I've also made meteorsteel rad-resistant (based on suggestions from Wolfy). Other thoughts?

I like the changes, and agree that armors need some tweaking. I think pulling the resistance curve on armor up could help rather than raising all the hp values. I would also like the ship itself to have some 'reserve hp' so when your armor is at 0 your hull is cracked and you're breaking up but might still limp into a drydock to fight another day.

8. Finally, one more question: what are some of your favorite/cool items that you would like to use, but cannot because they are underpowered?

The mnemonic processor comes to mind. Why does it use a device slot? Wouldn't it be in the cockpit?
The drive enhancements need some re-tooling. Could we have them increase thrust or speed by a percentage rather than just taking the max of either the new or old value? I would also like to see maneuverability included in them if possible.
I would also like reactors to accept more types of enhancements beyond the standard +20%, perhaps added enhanceable efficiency? and access to power use in functions would be nice too.

PS: I also have a more radical idea for balancing slots (that has been proposed a couple of times in the past)
Multiply by 10 the number of slots of items and ships.
In this way we can balance better the number of slots of the devices, like making 1.5 slots shield (that would be 15 slots in the new system) or 0.9 slots weapon (that would be 9 slots)

I really like this idea, and to go one step further, the player ships should have a reactor and drive device preinstalled.

[Atarlost]

1: Fading field crystal effects are a good idea, but only for the reflect crystals. The +HP crystals are fine since the big one doesn't stack.

2: I think the Class V is also wrong from a fluff standpoint. None of the other shields in that line have resistances. Changing the manufacturer would fix that though.

3: IM90 isn't all that great. It doesn't have the range of other weapons. Further reducing its lifetime to something like 25 would help it it's still overpowered without changing the flavor. Going much below 25 lifetime would make it useless I think.

4: Making the Kaidun a two slotter is out the way the shield resistance curves are right now. The higher regen/lower hitpoint shields just aren't viable right now. Being a two slotter would be reasonable if other shields were still viable.

5: I haven't tried the Qianlong for the new Heretic. If there are changes pending to the spawn rate of lobsters, the shield curves, the robustness of research stations, or anything else it's probably hopeless to balance right now.

6: I wouldn't reduce energy weapons ranges across the board unless you increase the range of projectile weapons to fill the old role. The X-ray has the range exactly right. A light minute is within range for a thermal kill of a feasable x-ray laser. The other lasers are over-ranged, but letting the niche-less Bolide keep its 60ls range would make it more interesting. Any range reduction for lasers would severely impact the Charon pirates and Marauders, especially the frigates and tripolis.

Particle has 80ls range for most weapons. You can't reduce the range of the basic particle weapon without nerfing the Sung. The lancer's range I think exceeds the targeting range of the xenophobes I think so that could come down a bit without causing big problems. A switch of ranges between particle and blast weapons would necessitate completely redoing both the Sung and Dwarg and probably the Huari as well.

The problem comes with the ion weapons (and positron). Realisticaly ion and positron weapons shouldn't be viable at all, but unless you're going to completely redo the damage types that's not really an option at this stage I don't think. The Katana is in the same sort of place as the IM90 where it's hard to nerf without making it boring. I think it needs to keep its role of "ion howitzer". The power consumption change and more significantly the Ventari now having ion resistant armor bring it down from a universal weapon. For balance purposes I think ion ranges are about right. If tritium cannons had more range, though, they could stand to lose some range except the Ares weapons and Katana. The omni ion blaster, though, can't stand to lose range very well because that's its advantage over the IM90.

7: They're too flat, or rather the combined value of shields and armor relative to weapons is too low now. Ships, both friendly and enemies, are less robust except for the few that never had shields. Most shields are now barely worth using except against those enemies that have specials that shields block (radiation, EMP, device damage, disintigration) If the current curves are kept something else needs to be changed, either more HP, higher regen, lower power consumption, or lower down-times, and unless shields are boosted all the way back to where they were before (which I don't want, they were too dominant then) armor either needs a boost to bring survivability back up or weapons need to be weaker across the board. Because of roundoff problems with low damage weapons I reccomend boosting armor. As a rule of thumb I'd say a shield should be as one patcher arm per level.

8: I would love to use the Dvalin reward items, but the armor is of dubious quality and Dvalin requires so many items that it's impossible to get anything from him until it's obsolete simply because the items to satisfy him aren't available. I would love to use the Ion flame cannon and laser array, but they simply don't concentrate damage enough. They should both have about half the spread they do now. I'd love to use the sapphire, but it doesn't have much of a niche between the freighter and wolfen. The new devices expand that niche a little, but it's hurt more than anything else by the weakened shields. I'd also love to use the actinide cannon, but it can't be installed until it's obsolete because of its illegality. And I'd love to use the Trenton, but I can't because passthrough means no protection against device damage or EMP.

[Aeonic]

While all kinetic weapons would have larger range, use ammo, less power.

I always wondered why some kinetic weapons required ammo and others did not... Dont' they all shoot small physical objects?

I would also like the ship itself to have some 'reserve hp' so when your armor is at 0 your hull is cracked and you're breaking up but might still limp into a drydock to fight another day

Perhaps it could take advantage of those mostly ignored nonCritical= sections, where getting hit on a segment after it reaches zero both reduces your system HP and damages your devices/cargo/visual/targetting, etc... So you don't necessarily blow up when your armor is breached, but you do suffer loss from it.

[Atarlost]

I always wondered why some kinetic weapons required ammo and others did not... Dont' they all shoot small physical objects?

Because the game can't track masses smaller than a kilogram, and because ammo use nearly automatically makes a weapon useless because of the difficulty of finding adequate ammunition, and because the ammo system can only handle single or alternating configurations where you can't use the conceit that a munition is actually multiple bullets as with the Dragonfly, a conceit that breaks down if recoilless cannons and dual recoilless cannons and arbalests, or flensers and dual flensers, or light recoilless cannons and tridents use ammo.

[Fossaman]

IM90: Make it harder to enhance. Reduce the rate of enhancement by half and it's not so overpowered anymore. If an IPC only pops it up by 5%, it's going to take 30 of them (or thirty longzhus) to enhance it all the way. And if a player has planned ahead that far to have that many of those items, more power to them.

I'd rather see weapon ranges left alone. I know there have been some changes made, but I like where it's at now. It feels pretty comfortable.

The shield and armor changes are pretty nice, really. I could see bumping up the hit points on armor a little bit, but it's already pretty survivable. Of course, if you don't have a howitzer or other super long range weapon to take out big ships, you're screwed. I've found that long range skirmishing is the only way to make it against Phobos dreadnaughts, and it's the better tactic against Ventari, Huari, Ranx, and stations. So a little more durability for the player might be nice. But if the AI gets a buff too, it's pointless.

As to question 8: Plasma cannons in general. I'm including the CW military version in this assessment. It's a wimpy power hog. The lamplighter could use an enhancement item or device of suitable rarity; right now I can pump a fusionfire up to a higher damage potential than it, even with the damage type.

[Aeonic]

I've found that long range skirmishing is the only way to make it against Phobos dreadnaughts, and it's the better tactic against Ventari, Huari, Ranx, and stations.

I found that its a better tactic against anything that doesn't move, or at least moves slowly. In fact, most of the later game consists of me firing really long range howitzers or star cannons at things that can't do squat about it. Heck, half the time the AI on the ships doesn't even know how to respond to threats that are that far away and they'll start flying my direction, then give up halfway and head home.

Bo-ring!

[Atarlost]

True, the lamplighter is important against the Iocrym because of the armor damage curves and the resistances on the Iocrym Veil, but its design purpose is Ares busting, and it's not much good for that.

The commonwealth plasma cannon, though, isn't weak when damage type is taken into account. In .99c it was one of three weapons that could take down the Iocrym cocoon with no enhancments, albeit barely.

[Fossaman]

The plasma cannon may not be 'weak' as such, but it really doesn't compare well to an enhanced fusionfire or ion weapon. Because it's unenhanceable itself, that puts it in the 'underpowered' column in my books.

[Atarlost]

It can take an optimizer rom, which is what any non-energy weapon will usually get because there aren't enough of any of the enhancers except longzhus to enhance a weapon heavily.

[digdug]

what if longzhu could enhance plasma cannons too ?

[Aury]

1. In RC1 I made field crystals rarer, which doesn't really solve the problem. Instead, I'm going to try to make field crystals "burn out" after a while. I think this might balance them better (and I would make them as common as they were in 0.99). Thoughts?

2. The class V deflector probably just needs more power consumption to balance (I can't remember if I already did that in RC1).

3. I don't know what to do about the IM90.

4. I'm considering changing the Kaidun so that it requires 2 device slots. That makes it suitable for the freighter (which needs it) but less desirable for the Wolfen. Thoughts?

5. I buffed the Qianlong in RC1/2--interested in thoughts.

6. I'm considering re-balancing the range of weapons (based on another thread). I think it makes sense to reduce the range of many energy weapons.

7. I'm interested in what people think about the damage type resistance curve for shields. Hopefully they make armor more important, but I think I also need to buff armor a little bit. In particular, I've added more armor repairing items to the mid/late gate (based on suggestions from fossaman). I've also made meteorsteel rad-resistant (based on suggestions from Wolfy). Other thoughts?

8. Finally, one more question: what are some of your favorite/cool items that you would like to use, but cannot because they are underpowered?

1)Mmmmm....
2)... I only got the Class V once... and then due to my own stupidity ran out of fuel. (I thought I had more, but didn't)
3)Ummm... I'm with atarlost on this one. The IM90 is ok, and doesn't need changing. By that stage, small ships are merely pests, but not a hazard to begin with, so IM90 is basically a time-saver, but isn't effectual vs. big ships, which are the real threats at that stage.
4)Once again, agreeing with atarlost here; that would be acceptable if this were .99c's shields, but with the current nerf to the shield curves, it would over-nerf the kaidun.
5)Yays!
6)Is this that thread with the 'realism>gameplay' and 'invisible lasers are awesomesauce'? That thread was extremely dubious in terms of balance in my eyes, given that it was talking about physics realism and NOT balance. I mean, immersive realism is nice, but that's more of the realism TX2 delves into; realistic inter-factional behaviors, other ships have reactors (and I've thought this out too, so it shoudn't be imbalanced), no more silly use of EI100's flying around in ares territory... The sort of commen sense that the inhabitants of the game's world need to provide immersion... through realistic thinking. That thread was much more about having 'realisitic physics', and this is a top-down space shooter for crying out loud; it's not going to have perfect physics, and a game as well, not some fancy-spancy supercomputer-using physics simulation were the lasers are all invisible like they are in reality.
7)The shield damage curves may have been a bit much... From the standpoint of modding however, it's a non-issue, considering we still have the wonderful all-powerful damageadj from .98 and before. (It fortunatly over-rides the damage curves). It would be really awesome to have a selection of higher-level no-shield armors (the highest is worldship, and that's a measly level 6).
8)The dvalin stuff sounds neat, but as Atarlost said, it's worthless by the time you actually get it. Also, the Ares Plasma cannon sounds cool in concept, but its a worthless weapon in the end; it uses WAY too much power, and does WAY too little bang for its buck. I think reducing the power consumption may be appropriate... Then again, that would make TX2's Phoboses all the eviler... >:D
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9)Having more illegal devices (especially at higher levels?) would make the black markets more colorful and fun, considering a number of them might not be found anywhere else... but that's just sort of a side thing (and they would need to be able to install them (or only offered once the BM shipyards are around), and they would need to be worth the money and trouble...)... maybe even some illegal armors and shields in addition to an expansion of the weapons... two or three of each would actually be plenty I should think.
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10) the luminous are rather worthless at the moment, as they arn't terribly strong (vs. the player), but are extremely deadly to CSC's and freindly stations (which is a problem, now more than ever with the no-fire zone around stations removed), and they drop worthless armor, shields, and the cubes arn't of any use for the wolfen (who can't spare the slot for the CPU), and of less use for the sapphire still than the freighter. And it would be rather neat to see them use a custom (maybe adaptive?) weapon and not a main-stream-ish device, which looks rather odd on them. I think that the luminous need to be rethought balance-wise, since they sort of got left behind as a balance-anachronism.

[Aury]

PS: I also have a more radical idea for balancing slots (that has been proposed a couple of times in the past)
Multiply by 10 the number of slots of items and ships.
In this way we can balance better the number of slots of the devices, like making 1.5 slots shield (that would be 15 slots in the new system) or 0.9 slots weapon (that would be 9 slots)

I'm not sure how appropriate it would be to call them 'slots' so much as perhapse... device tonnage? I think they would need a new name...

[Atarlost]

They would be analogous to criticals in classic BT.