If I made a change to give 8 device slots to the Sapphire, would that overpower it relative to the freighter and Wolfen?
Assume that every ship (to reach the end-game) needs:
a reactor
a shield generator
at least 1 weapon
For the freighter that leaves:
1 slot to be used for a drive upgrade
1 free slot for a weapon
4 free slots for misc devices (jumpdrive, weapon enhancer, CPU, etc.)
For the Wolfen that leaves:
1 slot to be used for a cargo hold
1 free slot for a misc device (weapon enhancer, repairer, jumpdrive)
3 free slots for weapons
The Sapphire (with 7 slots) needs both cargo and drive upgrades:
1 slot to be used for a cargo hold
1 slot to be used for a drive upgrade
2 free slots
It seems to me that even giving the Sapphire an extra slot would still make it inferior to both the freighter and the Wolfen. Its one advantage is that it is more flexible in what it can do with its free slots.
Would love to hear opinions.
8 device slots on the Sapphire?
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george moromisato
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While I approve of giving the sapphire an eigth slot you're making some absolutely false assumptions.
Nobody needs a cargo upgrade. You can already overload a Wolfen without one. The sapphire especially doesn't need one.
The sapphire doesn't need a drive upgrade either. It doesn't run well, but it can maneuver well enough to fight anything it can't outrun.
The problem is that the Wolfen is just better. The sapphire's extra cargo is wasted unless you load it up so you fly like a freighter, and at that point there's little reason to not be in a freighter. Even if the Wolfen had only 7 slots, provided the slot lost was one of the weapon only slots, it would be in every important respect superior to the sapphire. The freighter's role is different enough and it has an important advantage it can leverage in the form of a higher armor limit.
The first two weapon slots are indispensable, but everyone has them. The important slot is number 3. That gets you a skirmish weapon or omni, a basecracker, and a launcher. If the sapphire is going to leverage its ability to mount nonweapons it doesn't have the third weapon.
If the sapphire were to gain a slot it could do a 3/5 split and that would be an advantage, but the Wolfen would have higher base performance, the ability to mount a two slot weapon, and the ability to mount thicker armor. The freighter would have a 1 slot disadvantage since drive upgrades aren't optional, and would have less maneuverability, but would have the best armor.
The question then is there are three misclenaneous nonweapons that give the same benefit as three weapons. I think there are: the howitzer speed-loader has become pretty much a must have. The jump-drive is so powerful some people consider it gamebreaking. The third (or second for those who refuse the jumpdrive) slot has the Bushido Enhancer, patcher arm, and if you pass on the jumprive possibly a second patcher arm competing for it.
Nobody needs a cargo upgrade. You can already overload a Wolfen without one. The sapphire especially doesn't need one.
The sapphire doesn't need a drive upgrade either. It doesn't run well, but it can maneuver well enough to fight anything it can't outrun.
The problem is that the Wolfen is just better. The sapphire's extra cargo is wasted unless you load it up so you fly like a freighter, and at that point there's little reason to not be in a freighter. Even if the Wolfen had only 7 slots, provided the slot lost was one of the weapon only slots, it would be in every important respect superior to the sapphire. The freighter's role is different enough and it has an important advantage it can leverage in the form of a higher armor limit.
The first two weapon slots are indispensable, but everyone has them. The important slot is number 3. That gets you a skirmish weapon or omni, a basecracker, and a launcher. If the sapphire is going to leverage its ability to mount nonweapons it doesn't have the third weapon.
If the sapphire were to gain a slot it could do a 3/5 split and that would be an advantage, but the Wolfen would have higher base performance, the ability to mount a two slot weapon, and the ability to mount thicker armor. The freighter would have a 1 slot disadvantage since drive upgrades aren't optional, and would have less maneuverability, but would have the best armor.
The question then is there are three misclenaneous nonweapons that give the same benefit as three weapons. I think there are: the howitzer speed-loader has become pretty much a must have. The jump-drive is so powerful some people consider it gamebreaking. The third (or second for those who refuse the jumpdrive) slot has the Bushido Enhancer, patcher arm, and if you pass on the jumprive possibly a second patcher arm competing for it.
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Arisaya
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Well, I never play w/o a cargo upgrade. 
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I'm pro to giving the sapphire an extra slot. I've been playing since 0.97 and almost never used the sapphire except for testing purposes.
The problem with the sapphire in my opinion is that it is too close to the wolfen and the wolfen is simply an allround better gunship and it is not very good as a freighter type ship.
Cargo.
First, the freighter doesn't need a cargo upgrade unless you want to smuggle goods or mine. In both cases it'd be temporary - meaning that the freigher saves a slot.
Coming to the wolfen, it's very important for the wolfen to be unencumbered. It is still possible to play a wolfen with lots of cargo but is not very effective that way.
Regarding the sapphire, it's all about how you play. The selling point of the sapphire has to be flexibility. Without the cargo hold, it's a lot worse than the Wolfen in combat but gains only 15 tons of extra space. The Wolfen is simply much better. A sapphire with 150 tons of cargo still handles worse than a freighter and loses 50 tons of cargo. This is like playing it like a slightly more combat worthy freigher but then this is no tvery effective because it has only a total of 7 slots compared to the freighter's 9(and one would be taken up by the cargo expansion) and can't equip much armor either. The freigher is much betterThis is the single most important reason why people don't play sapphire. Both the other ships are better than the sapphire
Speed and maneuverability.
The Wolfen's faster and has a higher thrust. Also, both the wolfen and the sapphire have the same mass of 30 while the freigher has a mass of 250! On paper, both the sapphire and the wolfen might have teh same maneuverability but the thrust advantage of the wolfen means that it's a lot easier to handle. In any case, they are very close. The freighter on the other hand is decidedly slow and unmaneuverable.
Drive upgrades, IMO are optional for teh most extent. Some people reckon that the freigher is unplayable without the drive upgrades but then the freigher is not made to dodge and run about in the first place. Same goes for the other ships. It's all about how you play.
Armor.
The wolfen supports upto 10 ton armor segments, the frieghter 20 and the wolfen only 6. In practice, this means that both the freigher and the wolfen can equip almost all useful armor segments while some armor segments are denied to the Sapphire. Overall, this is not that much of a concern.
Starting eq. - not very significant but for the sake of completeness
Wolfen comes with 10MW 25000 capacity, Sapphire 15 37500 capacity and the freigher 25 with 60000 capacity. The freigher is saved one upgrade which is useful early game. Again, the slight advantage offered to the Sapphire is of not much use.
Also, the wolfen comes with tier II eq, the freighter has an omni weapon and some useful items and the sapphire comes with tier 1 eq and extra cash. Here, I believe that the sapphire is most disadvantaged as the extra cash is too little to be very useful.
Conclusion.
The sapphire is meant to be the middle ship. It's supposed to give you the flexibility to play it more like a gunship or more like a freigher. The low armor is a good tradeoff for the flexibility you get in the device slots. But the problem lies in the fact that it not good enough in either department.
Overall, giving it an extra slot will let you play the sapphire as an slightly more battleworthy freighter.
However, it'd still be hard to play it as a slower gunship with more cargo space as the Wolfen is better allround and the loss in cargo space is only 15 tons. To get around this, it's my opinion that the cargo space (without an expansion) should be increased to 70 or 75 and the maneuverability be increased to 3 to compensate (it should also be correspondingly harder to encumber it with cargo). It would make the Sapphire a little more distant from the wolfen, yet viable and hence would have it's own niche suiting a ceertain playstyle.
EDIT: Maybe a couple of polls asking people what their most favorite ship and the most hated ship is and why would help? My guess is that the public's most fav ship would either be the wolfen or the freigher and the most hated ship by the public would be the sapphire followed by the freigher...
EDIT2: I can't find a way to start a poll...maybe that feature is disabled. It does say that I can vote in polls if there are any...
The problem with the sapphire in my opinion is that it is too close to the wolfen and the wolfen is simply an allround better gunship and it is not very good as a freighter type ship.
Cargo.
First, the freighter doesn't need a cargo upgrade unless you want to smuggle goods or mine. In both cases it'd be temporary - meaning that the freigher saves a slot.
Coming to the wolfen, it's very important for the wolfen to be unencumbered. It is still possible to play a wolfen with lots of cargo but is not very effective that way.
Regarding the sapphire, it's all about how you play. The selling point of the sapphire has to be flexibility. Without the cargo hold, it's a lot worse than the Wolfen in combat but gains only 15 tons of extra space. The Wolfen is simply much better. A sapphire with 150 tons of cargo still handles worse than a freighter and loses 50 tons of cargo. This is like playing it like a slightly more combat worthy freigher but then this is no tvery effective because it has only a total of 7 slots compared to the freighter's 9(and one would be taken up by the cargo expansion) and can't equip much armor either. The freigher is much betterThis is the single most important reason why people don't play sapphire. Both the other ships are better than the sapphire
Speed and maneuverability.
The Wolfen's faster and has a higher thrust. Also, both the wolfen and the sapphire have the same mass of 30 while the freigher has a mass of 250! On paper, both the sapphire and the wolfen might have teh same maneuverability but the thrust advantage of the wolfen means that it's a lot easier to handle. In any case, they are very close. The freighter on the other hand is decidedly slow and unmaneuverable.
Drive upgrades, IMO are optional for teh most extent. Some people reckon that the freigher is unplayable without the drive upgrades but then the freigher is not made to dodge and run about in the first place. Same goes for the other ships. It's all about how you play.
Armor.
The wolfen supports upto 10 ton armor segments, the frieghter 20 and the wolfen only 6. In practice, this means that both the freigher and the wolfen can equip almost all useful armor segments while some armor segments are denied to the Sapphire. Overall, this is not that much of a concern.
Starting eq. - not very significant but for the sake of completeness
Wolfen comes with 10MW 25000 capacity, Sapphire 15 37500 capacity and the freigher 25 with 60000 capacity. The freigher is saved one upgrade which is useful early game. Again, the slight advantage offered to the Sapphire is of not much use.
Also, the wolfen comes with tier II eq, the freighter has an omni weapon and some useful items and the sapphire comes with tier 1 eq and extra cash. Here, I believe that the sapphire is most disadvantaged as the extra cash is too little to be very useful.
Conclusion.
The sapphire is meant to be the middle ship. It's supposed to give you the flexibility to play it more like a gunship or more like a freigher. The low armor is a good tradeoff for the flexibility you get in the device slots. But the problem lies in the fact that it not good enough in either department.
Overall, giving it an extra slot will let you play the sapphire as an slightly more battleworthy freighter.
However, it'd still be hard to play it as a slower gunship with more cargo space as the Wolfen is better allround and the loss in cargo space is only 15 tons. To get around this, it's my opinion that the cargo space (without an expansion) should be increased to 70 or 75 and the maneuverability be increased to 3 to compensate (it should also be correspondingly harder to encumber it with cargo). It would make the Sapphire a little more distant from the wolfen, yet viable and hence would have it's own niche suiting a ceertain playstyle.
EDIT: Maybe a couple of polls asking people what their most favorite ship and the most hated ship is and why would help? My guess is that the public's most fav ship would either be the wolfen or the freigher and the most hated ship by the public would be the sapphire followed by the freigher...
EDIT2: I can't find a way to start a poll...maybe that feature is disabled. It does say that I can vote in polls if there are any...
What I did in the original Transcendence Rebalanced was increase the mass. That let it leverage its extra base cargo without losing maneuverability. That was worth the lost acceleration and at least gave it a niche being better able to use ammo weapons than the Wolfen.
Right now that may be enough of a boost, but if armor masses are de-curved, and I hope they are because right now the limits don't matter until level 7 and will become absolutely crippling for the sapphire soon after Heretic, the lower limit will become a bigger deal and well worth an added slot.
Right now that may be enough of a boost, but if armor masses are de-curved, and I hope they are because right now the limits don't matter until level 7 and will become absolutely crippling for the sapphire soon after Heretic, the lower limit will become a bigger deal and well worth an added slot.
am i crazy for playing the freighter without a drive upgrade? i use the extra slot for another patcher arm. i used the play the sapphire due to it's flexibility but lately i've gone to die hard freighter every game. i don't think i've ever once used the wolfen. if i try the sapphire lately, i try to make it into a freighter and it doesn't quite work as well because i have to buy an omni and a cargo hold. i haven't played it in a while so i'm not sure how a full sapphire handles compared to the freighter. i don't really need more than 2 weapons because of the style that i play. in fact, if omni weapons also had WMD, i'd only need one because the second weapon is always some basecracker with an opposing element (omni-particle w/ mk.3 and omni-ion w/ fusionfire). but that's just how i play. 
No, you are not. It's a completely viable alternative as the Freighter was never meant to outrun enemies or to dodge much. You'd just have to pick your battles carefully and hide on the planets once in a while.Psycholis wrote:am i crazy for playing the freighter without a drive upgrade? i use the extra slot for another patcher arm.
Full Sapphire handles worse than a freighter. This is because the mass of Sapphire (and even the Wolfen) is only 30 while that of the freighter is 250.Psycholis wrote:i haven't played it in a while so i'm not sure how a full sapphire handles compared to the freighter
That seems like a good idea to make it a better gunship with cargo without changing the dynamics too much, but I'd still increase the default cargo space and decrease the maneuverability. Increasing mass would become essential to correspondingly decrease the encumberability anyway.Atarlost wrote:What I did in the original Transcendence Rebalanced was increase the mass. That let it leverage its extra base cargo without losing maneuverability. That was worth the lost acceleration and at least gave it a niche being better able to use ammo weapons than the Wolfen.
True that, first armor you can't equip is the heavy blast plate (other than titanium barricades - where are they again? I can't find them in the xmls and don't remember how much they weigh...) but there still are plenty of armor pieces late game that the sapphire can't equip. Think the extra slot would go a long way in letting you play the sapphire defensively...Atarlost wrote:Right now that may be enough of a boost, but if armor masses are de-curved, and I hope they are because right now the limits don't matter until level 7 and will become absolutely crippling for the sapphire soon after Heretic, the lower limit will become a bigger deal and well worth an added slot.
What about an extra armor slot as well?
this could push the sapphire into a mini-cruiser niche, where it's not quite as fast or maneuverable as the wolfen and it's armor isn't as thick as a freighter's.
Having 5 armor segs would make it slightly more durable, and could be a good balance to keeping the armor weight limit where it is (or even lower)
The extra device slot would then be perfect for another weapon enhancer.
Perhaps bump it's mass up to a more reasonable 60-75 to mitigate the effects of cargo drag.
this could push the sapphire into a mini-cruiser niche, where it's not quite as fast or maneuverable as the wolfen and it's armor isn't as thick as a freighter's.
Having 5 armor segs would make it slightly more durable, and could be a good balance to keeping the armor weight limit where it is (or even lower)
The extra device slot would then be perfect for another weapon enhancer.
Perhaps bump it's mass up to a more reasonable 60-75 to mitigate the effects of cargo drag.
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As a run and gun type of person, my first playthrough with the Sapphire (decided balance was a good point) in .99c was stressful, but fairly enjoyable once I got into it.
I think that the starting loadout could be improved, considering I've tried both the freighter and the Wolfen (I'm predominantly Wolfen) and I find that not buying a reactor as early, or not needing to fetch a NAMI launcher (I hate disposable racks) and better tiered weaponry are much nicer than the little bit of extra cash a Sapphire gets.
I'm personally for an extra slot, and I like the talk about either giving it more mass (It DOES seem at least a little more massive than the Wolfen if it can carry 50 tons off the bat) and/or more default cargo space.
I really haven't touched the Sapphire for a couple versions since I find that shooting around in a Wolfen is much more enjoyable to me, but I remember that whenever I have had a Sapphire, it's been much easier to bring in the cash due to being able to hold more stuff (I like to drag all my loot along until I can find a shop that will buy it at the peak value, or the second-highest if I need more room).
I think that the starting loadout could be improved, considering I've tried both the freighter and the Wolfen (I'm predominantly Wolfen) and I find that not buying a reactor as early, or not needing to fetch a NAMI launcher (I hate disposable racks) and better tiered weaponry are much nicer than the little bit of extra cash a Sapphire gets.
I'm personally for an extra slot, and I like the talk about either giving it more mass (It DOES seem at least a little more massive than the Wolfen if it can carry 50 tons off the bat) and/or more default cargo space.
I really haven't touched the Sapphire for a couple versions since I find that shooting around in a Wolfen is much more enjoyable to me, but I remember that whenever I have had a Sapphire, it's been much easier to bring in the cash due to being able to hold more stuff (I like to drag all my loot along until I can find a shop that will buy it at the peak value, or the second-highest if I need more room).
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Well, it looks like it's all (including myself) pro extra slot for the Sapphire so far. Can any one argue why it shouldn't receive an extra slot? It'll help balance out things a bit.
I can think of one thing - While the Wolfen might have a total of 8 slots, you are forced into a 4+4 layout. The Sapphire, with seven slots is usually played as 2+5 or as 3+4. The loss of the extra slot doesn't really decrease the firepower of teh sapphire as you can effectively use only 2 weapons and a launcher anyway.
But the immediate reply to that would be that it's not the offense that's the problem but the defense. The lack of an extra slot makes it defensively much weaker than it should be...
Oh well, George is the final arbiter anyway...
I can think of one thing - While the Wolfen might have a total of 8 slots, you are forced into a 4+4 layout. The Sapphire, with seven slots is usually played as 2+5 or as 3+4. The loss of the extra slot doesn't really decrease the firepower of teh sapphire as you can effectively use only 2 weapons and a launcher anyway.
But the immediate reply to that would be that it's not the offense that's the problem but the defense. The lack of an extra slot makes it defensively much weaker than it should be...
Oh well, George is the final arbiter anyway...
I have an idea. Right now, we have the freighter, the sapphire, and the Wolfen.
The Freighter is slow and clunky, but it can take and receive large quantities of damage.
The Wolfen is the opposite, it's fast and small, but it can't hit as hard and can't get hit as hard.
I suggest that instead of making the Sapphire the "middle ground" ship, we instead make it the "technology" ship. I.E. it would be able to mount MANY more fancy devices than the other two ships, at the cost of being both slow and relatively fragile. So while the freighter can absorb a hit and the Wolfen can dodge a hit, the Sapphire can outsmart bullet with an ICX.
The Freighter is slow and clunky, but it can take and receive large quantities of damage.
The Wolfen is the opposite, it's fast and small, but it can't hit as hard and can't get hit as hard.
I suggest that instead of making the Sapphire the "middle ground" ship, we instead make it the "technology" ship. I.E. it would be able to mount MANY more fancy devices than the other two ships, at the cost of being both slow and relatively fragile. So while the freighter can absorb a hit and the Wolfen can dodge a hit, the Sapphire can outsmart bullet with an ICX.
[schilcote] It doesn't have to be good, it just has to not be "wow is that the only thing you could think of" bad
Very controversial point. A good Wolfen player can easily do tons of damage - sepecially with launchers while dodging to get hit less.schilcote wrote:The Wolfen is the opposite, it's fast and small, but it can't hit as hard and can't get hit as hard.
Okay, lots of out there ideas.
Blitz wants to increase default cargo space and decrease maneuverability, which would make it handle just like a freighter empty, turning it into just a freighter with less space.
Prophet wants to add an extra armor slot and reduce the armor limit. The extra slot's been done. It's a challenge mod. Upgrading a fifth armor slot gets expensive, more so in 1.0 with less armor being found in wrecks than when it was made. Reducing the armor limit to just 5.5 would rule out hardened plasteel and P100 hexphase and octocarbide. Dropping it to 5 would also rule out orthosteel and hexcarbide.
And Shcilcote apparently wants to take the nonweapon slots away from the freighter and give them to the sapphire, making the freighter completely useless.
I could see nerfing the wolfen, but the sapphire and freighter need every edge they've got.
Blitz wants to increase default cargo space and decrease maneuverability, which would make it handle just like a freighter empty, turning it into just a freighter with less space.
Prophet wants to add an extra armor slot and reduce the armor limit. The extra slot's been done. It's a challenge mod. Upgrading a fifth armor slot gets expensive, more so in 1.0 with less armor being found in wrecks than when it was made. Reducing the armor limit to just 5.5 would rule out hardened plasteel and P100 hexphase and octocarbide. Dropping it to 5 would also rule out orthosteel and hexcarbide.
And Shcilcote apparently wants to take the nonweapon slots away from the freighter and give them to the sapphire, making the freighter completely useless.
I could see nerfing the wolfen, but the sapphire and freighter need every edge they've got.
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Arisaya
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Hmmm... why don't we just rebalance the sapphire from scratch? Making little changes doesn't look like it would be enough, based on my observation of the discussion. Don't have much time now, so I'll get around to posting the rest of my thoughts later.
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