Mining ideas

[Prophet]

I realize this topic has been thrown around countless times already, but I think I have some new ideas that might help.

Here are two threads with some good discussions that I will paraphase:
http://neurohack.com/transcendence/foru ... php?t=2557
http://neurohack.com/transcendence/foru ... php?t=2501

1. Twitch: Maybe you have to chase down flying pieces of ore before they collide with some
other asteroid. Or maybe there is risk that some ore will hit you and do damage
(so you have to avoid it or shoot it down).
2. Precision: Maybe you have to precisely match velocities with the flying ore to bring it aboard.
3. Puzzle: Maybe extracting the ore requires placing mining charges in the correct location
(Imagine a mini-game in a dock screen that allows you to place mining charges inside rock).
4. Strategy: Maybe you have to build mines on asteroids and decide on: (a) placement
(some asteroids are better than others), (b) investment (do you build one big mine or lots of
little mines), (c) minerals (price of ores fluctuates). All while fighting illegal miners and pirates.

One other big issue: The mini-game has to be compatible with the rest of the game. In other words:

A. Mining cannot be more viable than any other path.
B. Mining must be a trade-off (i.e., you must give up something in another path)

I've taken many of the suggestions that have been posted and come up with the following list:

• - extracting ore requires specialized equipment. A weapon to remove it from the asteroids, and a collector to scoop it up. no more docking with it (in fact, it's no longer possible) Also, any asteroid within a certain radius of a friendly mining station is considered 'claimed' and if the player attempts to mine from these asteroids they will be warned and then attacked unless they purchase a permit from the mining facility. If there is no friendly mining facility within range then the player can mine at will.
  
  - When ore is extracted from an asteroid, it's an 'unknown ore' type. The ore must be taken to a mining facility to be refined into the known types, and can finally be sold/used. There will be many more types of ore as well as other rare precious minerals that can be found.
  
  - the ore collector cannot be operated while a shield is installed on the ship. this is a balance factor to prevent a miner from attempting to follow the combat path.
  
  - more mining equipment is necessary, where there is a definite progression of mining weapons with mining1 through to mining7. DeviceSlot requirements are another method of preventing the miner from engaging in basecracking.
  
  - the mining event & function should be rewritten so that the ore extracted from the asteroid is dependent on the mining attribute. (ie mining1 will only be able to extract ores from levels 1 & 2) This will prevent the miner from obtaining ceralloy, duralloy, (or worse) and take it to a tinker earlier than those armors would normally be available.
  
  - outlaw mining stations, urak mines and ferian stations will have a new abandoned screen. these stations will function as player refineries if the player chooses to invest time and credits into repairing/building the machinery necessary. These stations will be targeted by random encounters, the illegal miners trying to reclaim their facility. The spawns will increase over time so these bases will be temporary. They will eventually become unprofitable or straight up destroyed so there is a financial risk.
  
  - the mining player will still have to be able to complete the game, either giving up their mining equipment to get equipped for battle or a new method of dealing with the Iocrym must be created. Perhaps the miner could have a mission where another stargate control rod is reported lost on some asteroid, and the player must mine to find it and finally circumvent the ICS.

At this point, mining would be a pacifist play style much slower paced overall with more strategic decisions. The miner would not be entirely excluded from, but would find many of the current missions much more difficult. A miner would make a very poor korolov escort, and many of the military missions would be nearly impossible without a shield and a decent weapon. Perhaps, something more drastic, like gaining xp in the mining path will actually reduce xp in the military, and vice versa. Switching equipment should be very difficult and perhaps some of the mining equipment should be very massive. The player should always be capable of giving up one path for another but it must be very difficult and expensive to discourage double-dipping.

[Aury]

Yes, I agree that a serious mining ship meant for heavy-duty mining (higher speed, higher reward) should not be an escort; such a ship would be horribly slow and would really need its own escorts. Wouldn't be terribly useful for military either. On the other hand a small non-mining ship like the wolfen and perhapse sapphire, casual mining (like it is now, but perhaps even less rewarding in terms of ore worth/quantity), could still be an option, though mining with a wolfen is still a rather absurd notion (a waste of slots imo), though with the way it works, it wouldn't be your living, it would merely be a way to make a little money to upgrade your equipment on an unlucky playthrough, seeing as your ship would be too weak to take on enemies for loot or do missions.

[ptbptb]

I think the feasibility of a path should follow naturally from the player's ship design and equipment invested in.

I'm quite new to this game so I'm not completely au fait with the game balance but it's always struck me that the cargo expansions available for the Sapphire and Wolfen ship class are excessive - given that the freighter can't expand its cargo bay at all.

On the other hand the Wolfen only has three non-weapon slots so that could be a major limiting factor. Given the weapon / non-weapon division system it might be best if mining equipment didn't include the distinctly 'weaponlike' mining laser, etc. Asteroids, afterall, sit still and don't dodge. It wouldn't be odd to have something designed for dealing with them to be completely useless in a battle.

I dislike the idea of mining exp being negative exp for something else. People each have their own playing style and I'm sure there are those complete-ists who won't be happy unless they are able to (albeit with great difficulty) to advance as far as they can as many ways as they possibly can.

It would also discourage casual trade swaps if some devices were not capable of being sold / reused later after being uninstalled.

[Atarlost]

- the ore collector cannot be operated while a shield is installed on the ship. this is a balance factor to prevent a miner from attempting to follow the combat path.

No. Absolutely and unequivocally no. The Borer II is shielded. The same rules must be applied to NPCs as the player and removing the shield from the Borer II would make outlaw miner encounters a joke for anyone using a monopole deflector or reactive armor.

De-weaponising mining lasers is a big no for the same reason. It would eliminate the distinctiveness of outlaw miner and ferian encounters.

[ptbptb]

De-weaponising mining lasers is a big no for the same reason. It would eliminate the distinctiveness of outlaw miner and ferian encounters.

Good point. How about if the mining cargo hold took up an extra non-weapon device slot? I think that would pretty much make it a last resort for Wolfen, while still being possible if they really want to.

[Prophet]

- the ore collector cannot be operated while a shield is installed on the ship. this is a balance factor to prevent a miner from attempting to follow the combat path.

No. Absolutely and unequivocally no. The Borer II is shielded. The same rules must be applied to NPCs as the player and removing the shield from the Borer II would make outlaw miner encounters a joke for anyone using a monopole deflector or reactive armor

The borer uses a mining laser, which can be used with a shield. It's the ore collector, a separate device, that cannot operate with shields. I'm not 100% committed to this idea but there needs to be something that the miner must give up that will make basecracking nearly impossible.

[digdug]

What about a level limit and the necessity for the shield to be deactivated for the device to work ?
Also, a consistent power draining that require the shield to be off.
I also believe that a 2 slots ore processor, a gem polisher and cutter and gas scoop and compressor (yes blasting away rocks and chlatrates should make puffs of gases and plasmas) + a mining weapon for a total of 5 slots makes a nice mining route that cannot be pursued at the same time of a fighting set of devices.

Another idea could be to have a mining device that occupies the shield slot, but I'm not sure on this

[Prophet]

Perhaps forcing the miner to uninstall their shield is a bit over the top, what about simply making it more difficult to get a militaryID?

The following function is what determines whether or not the player is fit to accept a military mission, the first successful mission will give the player their military ID.

Code: Select all

(setq milCanEnterCC (lambda ()
	(or
		(gr (objGetData gPlayerShip "militiaRank") 0)
		(gr (typGetGlobalData &stBattleArena; "arenaSkill") 200)
		(gr (typGetGlobalData &stKorolovShipping; "xp") 0)
		(objGetItems gPlayerShip "*+MilitaryID")
		)
	))

Perhaps if the arenaSkill and the Korolov xp requirements were raised to 300 each it would be extremely difficult for the miner to join the military. That would mean at least completing a few one on one fights in the arena or obtaining level 1 in Korolov. It would be more difficult everyone to get the militaryID but for a dedicated fighter the changes would be nearly negligible.

The miner could still acquire and equip military equipment through the blackmarket, perhaps modifying the restaurant encounter so that if you are a miner you are turned away for being too smelly/dirty? The miner could still get a black market ID other ways but it would be more difficult. Forcing the miner to install the mining cargo hold would mean not being able to install the smuggler's hold and running black market items much less profitable.

I agree with digdug that carefully building the new mining equipment to use device slots for dedicated mining equipment rather than combat devices is a path worth following but it may not be enough.

[Curudan]

It seems to me that most of the this relies on exactly how difficult you will make it to dump the mining equipment in a mule auton when you're not mining. Beyond permanently locking the equipment on the ship, I don't see any way to keep the "miner" in a dedicated mining path, and I don't think that would be a very good idea.

Personally, I think that the best way to lock the player into the mining path would be a miners "guild", an organization you'd have to join to gain access to the best mining gear. Theoretically such a guild would preclude membership in one or two other non-mining groups, BM, Militia, Arena, etc.

[Atarlost]

- the ore collector cannot be operated while a shield is installed on the ship. this is a balance factor to prevent a miner from attempting to follow the combat path.

No. Absolutely and unequivocally no. The Borer II is shielded. The same rules must be applied to NPCs as the player and removing the shield from the Borer II would make outlaw miner encounters a joke for anyone using a monopole deflector or reactive armor

The borer uses a mining laser, which can be used with a shield. It's the ore collector, a separate device, that cannot operate with shields. I'm not 100% committed to this idea but there needs to be something that the miner must give up that will make basecracking nearly impossible.

If the borer doesn't have the collector, what does?

And the miner can't give up the ability to basecrack because most asteroid belts are chock full of hostile stations. If you can't basecrack and mine the only time anyone can mine is when backtracking over areas they cleared out before installing their mining equipment.

[Song]

In terms of the whole "mining option" thing...one approch has already done. I built external gunpod mods specifically to allow a player to rig a freighter for mining, but still have a launcher and a basic weapon.....which works quite well.

So why not reverse it? Have a pod-mounted external mining weapon that does tiny damage, is inaccurate past a short range, and has a reasonably poor ROF.....but mines reasonably well. And possibly also a 3-5t device that allows you to grab ore more effectively if you don't have a miners hold?

This doesn't really fit with the whole "mining guild" thing, but it's certainly a possible way to make mining much more accessible.

[Prophet]

I put together some functions (found here) to compare mining vs basecracking. I summed the value of all ore in each system and compared it to the value of all loot in enemy bases. Surprisingly, they are fairly equal by heretic. Mining takes the early lead (by far) with some systems as high as 70K creds before St Kats but basecracking usually comes out as the more profitable path.

Here are the final totals:

• Comparison Mining basecracking
  Test 1 2,722,830 2,585,530
  Test 2 1,940,040 3,916,595
  Test 3 2,969,900 3,462,442
  Test 4 3,015,220 3,655,733

Now these values are somewhat misleading, it is nearly impossible to get this much as very few stations will buy ore and the player would rarely be willing to haul all the ore (average of 18000 tons per game) and much of the loot is damaged and only tinkers will purchase it for the full price. There are many other factors that are not taken into account but these are a fair comparison of the two paths.

I made an excel spreadsheet with a much more in depth comparison, system by system that you can see here.

From this analysis, I conclude that mining is profitable and could exist as a specialty path if it were mutually exclusive to basecracking. (excluding illegal miners) This still does not solve HOW to achieve this.

[ptbptb]

From this analysis, I conclude that mining is profitable and could exist as a specialty path if it were mutually exclusive to basecracking.

I don't really see why it has to be mutually exclusive, as long as trying to play both fields leaves you taking more than twice as long.

[Prophet]

I don't really see why it has to be mutually exclusive, as long as trying to play both fields leaves you taking more than twice as long.

Currently, the game is balanced without mining at all, assuming an average RNG playthrough. To make mining more fun and profitable AND making it easily accessible to players that are geared for combat would unbalance the game. Yes, it would take longer to complete the game but there is no penalty for taking your time. Expanding mining to be its own path should keep the game balanced thus a dedicated miner must forgo another source of income.

[Corporal Jomn]

How about this: If you have a mining vessel, make certain escort/militia/fleet mission unaccesable and make more mining missions exclusive to mining vessels such as receiving money for retrieving ore from a certain asteroid or something like that.