1.08a Solid Smoke

Bug reports for the different beta versions of transcendence.
Cirevam
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As I was killing outlaw miners in cold blood earlier, I noticed that one of the turrets seemed to have an enormous hitbox. I saw that my shots were actually hitting the smoke that was leaking from the freshly-destroyed turret. My shots were being stopped by the smoke; they weren't just passing through and leaving particle effects behind. I couldn't quite tell if Volkov's lasers were being stopped but they were definitely hitting the smoke too.

I'm pretty sure smoke was never solid before, so... that's all.
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Cirevam wrote:As I was killing outlaw miners in cold blood earlier, I noticed that one of the turrets seemed to have an enormous hitbox. I saw that my shots were actually hitting the smoke that was leaking from the freshly-destroyed turret. My shots were being stopped by the smoke; they weren't just passing through and leaving particle effects behind. I couldn't quite tell if Volkov's lasers were being stopped but they were definitely hitting the smoke too.

I'm pretty sure smoke was never solid before, so... that's all.
Smoke has always been solid AFAIK. I think the new impact effects may make it more obvious that your shots are being blocked.
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Location: Hmm... I'm confused. Anybody have a starmap to the Core?

So... case closed?
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Patupi
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I can understand it blocking some damage (lasers would be attenuated etc) but bullets? Hmm, might be stretching things a little :)
shanejfilomena
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Patupi wrote:I can understand it blocking some damage (lasers would be attenuated etc) but bullets? Hmm, might be stretching things a little :)
Smoke = Particles : Particles are SOLID : srry to seem that it is obvious but it is Space:
tiny particles are more the beasties in space.
the smoke has a lifetime , just as it does on Earth : it spreads and dissipates : same in Space :
On earth Smoke can kill you if your close to the source : in Space it can stop a bullet ( in theory, not all Smoke is " smoke" that we know as carbon / PAH(s) depending on what is in the smoke can make a very huge difference in space. ) because the particles are dense and spread out slower from the source before turning supersonic if they were not already,
they can damage your shields or destroy your ship if your too close to the explosion.

In Transcendence : smoke is solid : it has a lifetime of 15, usually, on a Missile such as ... a Gotha400 : it can knock you off a rock.
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Patupi
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I understand it's working in game, I was just thinking about RL. And... smoke can stop a bullet? Particles can stop a bullet? Pardon? Light can be refracted or defracted, dissipating it's effects, but show me a gas, vapor or dust cloud that can stop a bullet? The rounds they are using are designed to deliver enough kinetic energy to penetrate heavy armor that should be better than current, modern day ballistic armor. This is supposed to be debris from a ship's damage. I can (just) see the odd piece of solid debris deflecting ammo, but the cloud is effectively impervious to projectile damage. I was just saying it's rather silly. It works in game (I think) but scarcely is reasonable in RL.
shanejfilomena
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Patupi wrote:I understand it's working in game, I was just thinking about RL. And... smoke can stop a bullet? Particles can stop a bullet? Pardon? Light can be refracted or defracted, dissipating it's effects, but show me a gas, vapor or dust cloud that can stop a bullet? The rounds they are using are designed to deliver enough kinetic energy to penetrate heavy armor that should be better than current, modern day ballistic armor. This is supposed to be debris from a ship's damage. I can (just) see the odd piece of solid debris deflecting ammo, but the cloud is effectively impervious to projectile damage. I was just saying it's rather silly. It works in game (I think) but scarcely is reasonable in RL.
Debris :
In "RL" a paint chip off a an old booster rocket can take out the ISS because it will hit the force of a Metal Safe.
( this why they are always jumping into the escape pods when the debris or debris clouds ( paint chips, bits of metal or even a dead satellite ) gets too close or thick )
You under-estimate the power of tiny things :

but yes: on EARTH these things are " nothing much " but the universe is made up of tiny things : in space they become a different kind of thing in terms of impact on the surroundings. substance has mass : mass with force = impact : might be tiny, might not.

In the game to generate the smoke it has to be a solid mass for the game: particles are solid : this is where you get the " solid smoke " .
in RL it is still the same : but the equality of it to it's surroundings makes it's impact different : in space, again :

even Captain Kirk feared clouds and vapors in space : so does the ISS : because you can never exactly be sure of the equality of statement the impact has.
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Cirevam
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While it's true that small things in space can hit with enormous force, it's always because they're moving fast relative to another object. Assuming a station and your ship are not moving relative to each other, how fast would smoke or other particles exit the station when it's destroyed? How fast is that cloud of particles moving compared to, say, a shot from a Flenser? And we could take this in a slightly different direction and ask why smoke effects affect weapons fire but they don't bother your ship at all. All I'm asking is for a bit of consistency here.
shanejfilomena
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Cirevam wrote:While it's true that small things in space can hit with enormous force, it's always because they're moving fast relative to another object. Assuming a station and your ship are not moving relative to each other, how fast would smoke or other particles exit the station when it's destroyed? How fast is that cloud of particles moving compared to, say, a shot from a Flenser? And we could take this in a slightly different direction and ask why smoke effects affect weapons fire but they don't bother your ship at all. All I'm asking is for a bit of consistency here.
you are correct: all things are relative : the universe is one thing : but the one thing it has never been was Consistent:
There are more Old Drunks then there are Old Doctors :

So , yes, often an explosion' smoke might not affect the playership, but not always the case : this is the kink in the rug.
Last edited by shanejfilomena on Sat Apr 09, 2016 10:48 am, edited 1 time in total.
Flying Irresponsibly In Eridani......

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Star Weaver
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Uhh, is the screenshot of the xenophobes shooting up the ronin supposed to illustrate anything?
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digdug
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yeah, it is.
Smoke was solid even before but was hard to tell. Now the pretty pretty hiteffects made it very obvious.
Maybe we can turn the interaction of smoke down to zero ?

In any case I don't see it as a big problem if some lasers are attenuated by smoke. IT's realistic ! :D
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Star Weaver
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Ticket at http://wiki.neurohack.com/transcendence/trac/ticket/893 so G can decide if this is WAI or not.
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Patupi
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At a rough guess I'd say energy weapons in general (lasers, particle beams, ion beams etc) are blocked by smoke, but higher dam types affected less than lower. lasers 100% stopped, particles 80% etc? Physical damage (kinetic, blast, thermo etc) would have more inertia/mass involved and wouldn't readily be stopped by smoke.

That's my take on it anyway. *shrugs* Not sure if it's game imbalancing in a minor way, but seems more realistic.
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Atarlost
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Patupi wrote:At a rough guess I'd say energy weapons in general (lasers, particle beams, ion beams etc) are blocked by smoke, but higher dam types affected less than lower. lasers 100% stopped, particles 80% etc? Physical damage (kinetic, blast, thermo etc) would have more inertia/mass involved and wouldn't readily be stopped by smoke.

That's my take on it anyway. *shrugs* Not sure if it's game imbalancing in a minor way, but seems more realistic.
Not really. Dust has to be opaque to stop lasers. Space is big. It takes absurd quantities of material in the form of dust or smoke to appreciably effect a laser.

It has to be opaque and dense to stop neutral particles. Gas giants and stars block shots already. Not going to happen anywhere else.

Ion is easier to block because it interacts with charged particles and violently ejected smoke will tend to be weakly ionized I think. The amount of smoke that can spew from a damaged ship or station shouldn't be enough to effect even this.

Positron is as easy to block as electron.

Antimatter is like particle, but any dust or smoke particle that gets caught in it will be converted to energy resulting in dramatically increased thermal bloom.

Graviton+ probably won't be effected at all.
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If you want this correct the effect of smoke/debris/... what have to consider not only the damage type, but also the "mass" (actually mass*velocity -> impulse) of projectiles. Depending on "damage type" as Atarlost said there would be some kind of effect.
As an example kinetic shots would be (slightly) slown down, laser would not, but loose some (minor) damage.
However this is difficult since "bullets" dont have a mass associated with them in the code.
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