Shipyards

[F50]

I kinda like your pricing function, betel, now that I reread it. Furthermore, it works for every ship. However, I'd like to see what the starter ships turn out to be worth. I think its a little on the pricey side, but I'd have to see.

As for places you can upgrade ships, how about a shipyard? What's that? Any place that allows you to upgrade reactors.

Ringer shipyard, CW Dry Dock, BM Shipyard, CSC.

[Sponge]

You have the same amount of cash

When I said you would have less cash, I was talking about the direct effects of having a significantly smaller cargo hold. When I play as the Freighter, I find it MUCH easier to make money than in a Wolfen. I would assume that a ship with a ~25 ton hold (my shot at a balanced number for a Corsair) would be almost impossible to get much of a profit with. You need room for fuel, as well as spare/upgrade parts. At times, the Wolfen barely suffices.

In a balanced system, downgrading your ship should (almost) NEVER be worth while. I suppose if you were really pressed for cash because you couldn't afford fuel for your big ship, or something similar, you may want to downgrade. However, downgrading because the cash is good enough to carry you further than before should never happen.

Looking over Betels outline:
I like the concept, but it's awfully expensive. It seems the value of X changes around quite a bit, making it difficult to follow.
For example: "max weapons: (slots - X) * -15k " Assuming that X means 'weapon slots,' which follows logically, having more weapon slots makes your ship cheaper. That doesn't make very much sense. In a Freighter type ship, you would want more weapon slots, where in a Wolfen you would want more non-weapon slots.

"Maneuver: (5-X) * 1k " is also a bit weird. I'm guessing you meant 'Maneuver: (X-5) * 1k?' With the first, the higher your manuverability, the cheaper the cost.

Other than little stuff like that, the only thing that ties me up is the price. I'll run through a quick sample of a decent to upper range ship.

Base ship: 250k credits
Thrust: 250 * X (250 * 8 = 2000)
Max Speed: 1k * X (Speeds are done in fractions of C. This would be a very cheap attribute)
Mass: abs (X - 150) * 500 (Don't feel like looking up ship masses)
Maneuver: (5-X) * 1k ([5 - 4] *1000 = 1000)
Slots: X * 250k (6 * 250000 = 1,500,000)
Max Armor: 10k * X ( 10,000 * 15(tons) = 150,000)
max Cargo Space: 2k ([I'm assuming 2k * space?] 150 * 2000 = 300,000)
Cargo Space: 5K (What's the difference between this and max cargo space?)
max reactor in MW: (250 - X) * -2k ([250 - 500] * -2k = 500,000)
max weapons: (slots - X) * -15k ([6-3] * -15,000 = -45,000)

For a grand total of: 2,748,000 Credits.
For a fairly middle-of-the-line gunship. I don't like the idea of this being a game where ships are so much more expensive than everything else you can buy that the only way to get a good ship is to trade your way up. Even so, assuming you want a ship twice as good as your starting ship, you will still need to come up with tons of cash before you can switch. Even if it means taking a hit to realism, cheaper ships are the way to go. I wouldn't expect any more than a third of the above price- probably closer to a fifth or a sixth. In all, though, good system. Best yet, I'd say. The modular cost is the way to go, as it's quantitative as opposed to slapping a value on something.

[Betelgeuse]

Sponge hmm you are right I made some mistakes in it

but you have to remember you will always have a ship to trade in (maybe to a different ship can be 65% trade in value). That takes alot off the cash, the specific numbers are not important as a few ideas

you can have the same body throughout the game, that will help in role playing
you can downgrade but you have to have a massive downgrade to make money and the min will get in the way of getting rid of something you don't care about
you progress to better ships as you go through the game, I don't want people buying the best ship at st. k
you will never see the end, through the max and the huge cost you should never have a perfect ship

about Maneuver I took the values of X from the xml and the lower Maneuver is in the xml the faster you turn. (iirc its how many seconds it takes for a full turn)
about max weapons yes you are right it should be (X - slots) * 15k assuming checks are made to make sure that X < slots

Cargo Space is how much cargo space you have max cargo space is how much can you get to with holds, now that I think about it maybe those should be cut in half.
The only huge thing in cost was the slots and most of that should be absorbed by trade in. Giving yourself 6 extra slots should cost 1.5 Mil

I would love to see what you would think would be better numbers, those numbers I put down where more of on the spot kind of things

[Sponge]

I'll think about it, and see if I can't come up with something a little later. When you say 'extra slots,' are you implying that each ship has a base number of slots? I had assumed that you had to purchase all of your slots. However, if that is really just additional slots added to a base, then it's not nearly as bad, as I surely wouldn't need 6.

I just worry that even with the trade in, you'll still need too much cash. Say you are in a ship that costs 1,000,000 and would like a nice upgrade. The ship you want costs 2,000,000. Even with a 65% trade in value, you're left to cover 350,000- and the ship you're buying is by no means the best in the game. On the other side of the equation, if you have a 90% trade in value, you're only paying 100K for a ship twice as good as your current ship. It's a battle between two extremes. We need to try to find a middle ground.

Another thing comes up with a modular price system. How would the starting ships be balanced in the price category? The pricing system would either have to be perfectly tailored so every stat is worth EXACTLY what you pay for it (allowing the starting ships to have very different stats, while all costing the same and being balanced) or you would have to pick whether you wanted to balance the ships in price or playability. You could have all three ships cost 200K, but one be far superior to the other two. Similarly, you could have all three balanced well for gameplay, but with different prices. It seems the best solution is to come up with a system that accurately ranks every stat a ship has, and gives it a price based on that rank. It's a pretty difficult thing to do.

[Betelgeuse]

On the other side of the equation, if you have a 90% trade in value, you're only paying 100K for a ship twice as good as your current ship.

Not quite remember you still have to pay for the upgrades and that would come out to be 1.1 mil for a twice as good ship.

when I say slots I mean all the slots, this does assume that the ship you are trading from has slots that have value

here is an example

you have a ship worth 2 mil
You want an extra slot so you trade it in for 1.8 mil and buy the new ship at 2.25 mil so the cost would be 450,000.

That way as you progress through the game upgrades will get more expensive so there would have to be a balance between saving money for the best upgrade price and getting the extra slot now.

How about instead of the 65% trade in (the lower trade in value isn't working the way I hoped) you have this
Base ship: 250k credits if same 500k if different

As for beginning ships costing different things I wouldn't mind because what people think is better varies from person to person. Like I don't care about cargo space anymore due to equipment not counting. Someone else would gladly take better weapons than that. The current ships are not that far apart on price so its not like they get a huge step up on trade in value.

[OddBob]

When I said you would have less cash, I was talking about the direct effects of having a significantly smaller cargo hold. When I play as the Freighter, I find it MUCH easier to make money than in a Wolfen. I would assume that a ship with a ~25 ton hold (my shot at a balanced number for a Corsair) would be almost impossible to get much of a profit with. You need room for fuel, as well as spare/upgrade parts. At times, the Wolfen barely suffices.

So make more trips or get an expansion. There's not actually less loot depending on your ship.

In a balanced system, downgrading your ship should (almost) NEVER be worth while. I suppose if you were really pressed for cash because you couldn't afford fuel for your big ship, or something similar, you may want to downgrade. However, downgrading because the cash is good enough to carry you further than before should never happen.

I agree, this is in fact the point I was making earlier.

I don't like the idea of this being a game where ships are so much more expensive than everything else you can buy that the only way to get a good ship is to trade your way up.

I do. If most of the value comes from trade in then the player can UPGRADE to a better ship with a little difficulty, but having TWO ships (and thus perhaps two "lives") should be hard (and it's also a good cash sink)/ It's also possible that the player can make payments like you would on a house or car (most people have a house (or apartment, etc) , how many have TWO?)

ABout the modular part, though, it's just a handy way to price ships, right? Not an actual "roll your own ship" machine? I'm not sure I like the ship machine - it's hard to explain but I think it takes away from the game if you can have whatever stats you would like.

[Betelgeuse]

OddBob
well with everyone making there own ships with there own stats already I don't see the problem with it. Plus it is a good cash sink. Don't forget different ships will have different min max for different values so the ships can still be very different.

I want ship changing to always have something better. With a set ships you run into the same problem as with weapons now ie once you get your target the game becomes very boring. A modular system would allow a huge drain on the cash of the people who want the best while still having goals for them to attain.

[Periculi]

It also opens the door to more possibilities for role play and missions. Having a set ship means that you are stuck with the optimal set up for that ship the entire game once you get it. Being able to swap out to a bigger ship or different class of ship can make the game much fuller.

Let's say we scrap the whole idea of buying ships altogether.

But George still builds in a way to swap out the playership.

Now you cruise along for a while in your starter ship, take out some baddies, grab some loot and come across a Trader mission- you must take command of a super freighter and deliver some thing to a remote backwaters system. Ok, cool- there ya go- a freighter mission for the trader types.

But maybe you don't want to do that. You go along a little further and discover a Research facility that is looking to hire an experienced pilot to take a research vessel to a newly discovered alien ruin and complete a few tests/surveys. There ya go- a research mission. When you get back, maybe the cool scientists have a ship with a newly designed organic hull you can try out on your way to the galactic core.

And so on.

[Faust]

Idea: why not make a "tow" item? when you kill a ship, you can tow it back to a major station, then if you have enough armor & cash to repair "critical systems" you can transfer ships, and leave your old one in the station, or outside of it like a wreck?

[Ttech]

Periculi: Great ideas, that would be so cool to.

Idea: why not make a "tow" item? when you kill a ship, you can tow it back to a major station, then if you have enough armor & cash to repair "critical systems" you can transfer ships, and leave your old one in the station, or outside of it like a wreck?

I tried that. It iddin't work.