Balancing weapons (requesting info from George)

[Atarlost]

Continues from http://www.neurohack.com/transcendence/ ... php?t=2708

It is possible (maybe even likely) that your algorithm would lead to better balance than the existing weapon damage or my damage curve. It would be interesting to see you put those ideas into practice in your Transcendence Rebalanced mod. Perhaps it will reveal that your algorithm works in practice.

I'm working on it, but I've run into a snag.

Remember that both shields and armor also increase at 1.3x per level; it helps me to be able to compare damage across damage type tiers. For example, there needs to be a relationship between a level 1 laser and a level 4 particle and a level 7 ion.

But I think we agree on the curve but are expressing it in different ways.

For example, a level 4 laser weapon is less powerful than a level 4 particle beam, even if both do the same dps--obviously, the laser will be affected by armor/shield damage type adjustment.

Even if I use a 1.3x damage curve, I have to increase damage for laser at higher level to remain competitive. Thus for a particular damage type, it *look* like the curve is closer to 2x.

I should probably apply a % increase to dps to compensate. For example:

Laser/kinetic dps:

Level 1: 16 dps
Level 2: 20 dps + 10% = 22 dps
Level 3: 28 dps + 25% = 35 dps
Level 4: 36 dps + 50% = 54 dps
Level 5: 48 dps + 100% = 96 dps
Etc...

At the next tier we would do the same thing:

Particle/blast dps:

Level 4: 36 dps
Level 5: 48 dps + 10% = 53 dps
Level 6: 64 dps + 25% = 80 dps
Level 7: 84 dps + 50% = 126 dps
Etc...

[Note: I don't know if we should pick the first level in the tier or the middle level in the tier as "standard". In the tables above I chose the first level; if we chose the middle level, then it would be the same kind of thing but different adjustments.]

This is no different than compensating for ammo-requirement or omni- or anything else. That is, instead of expressing it as part of the damage curve, I express it as an adjustment on top.

I've figured out how to compensate for ammo weapons. They appear to be double damage. Extreme range looks to be worth 0.833X damage. (howitzers, lancers, and the katana) Omni a level and 0.625X damage (which may bear changing, especially when a level is a bigger deal) Tracking at 2 looks to be half damage based on the smartcannon.

I'm having trouble figuring out how missiles are balanced though. Relationships to normal contemporaries range from 2.5x damage for the red strelka to 1.08x for the gotha-10.

I'm also unclear on how to balance fragmenting weapons except to multiply them by the same value as other weapons of that level, which only works for rebalancing, not in situations where I'm making new weapons.

[george moromisato]

I've figured out how to compensate for ammo weapons. They appear to be double damage. Extreme range looks to be worth 0.833X damage. (howitzers, lancers, and the katana) Omni a level and 0.625X damage (which may bear changing, especially when a level is a bigger deal) Tracking at 2 looks to be half damage based on the smartcannon.

For ammo weapons, 2x is roughly what I used. However, note that the Akan is probably better than 2x. Obviously with ammo weapons the availability of ammo is key. I need to come up with some better ways to get ammo.

I've been negligent about range, so the 0.833x is not entirely deliberate, but sounds like where it should be.

I generally try to make omni weapons 0.5x for the level that they are at. But I bet there are places where I go higher (which might account for the 0.625x).

I'm having trouble figuring out how missiles are balanced though. Relationships to normal contemporaries range from 2.5x damage for the red strelka to 1.08x for the gotha-10.

Missiles, like ammo weapons are dependent on finding things to shoot, so the balancing is all over the map. When ammo is plentiful (NAMIs) then they approach 2x like other ammo weapons. But sometimes, for rare missiles, they go higher; and for missiles that mostly enemies get, the damage can be lower.

Missiles are probably where I could use the most help.

I'm also unclear on how to balance fragmenting weapons except to multiply them by the same value as other weapons of that level, which only works for rebalancing, not in situations where I'm making new weapons.

I've had the same problem, and in practice, they are also all over the map. I generally add up their total damage value and divide by 2 or 3 or 4 depending on what percentage of fragments are likely to hit a target. Then I balance like other missiles.

I haven't been consistent, though. Again, since most fragmentation weapons are also missile weapons, factors such as rarity affect the balance more than other things.

Anyway, hope that helps.

[Atarlost]

So I get to balance launchers and fragments from scratch. Maybe this topic wasn't ready to move to shipyards.

The 0.833x for long range weapons is pretty consistant for something not deliberate. My notes are:

Code: Select all

old ballista/flenser = 1.22
old heavy slam/markI = 1.08
old tritium/markV = 1.20
old ares-lightning/katana = 0.92
hypothetical thermo8 = avg(tritium adv-tritium) = 114 dps
hypothetical thermo8/FFH = 1.27

where the value for the advanced tritium is the 5 shots/second sustained fire rate not the 10 shots/second peak fire rate. The big outlier is the katana and I think it may be the ares lightning cannon that's underpowered since it's not all that much more potent than the disruptor which you say is compensating for device damage. It looks like the katana and mark I were passed over in balancing range. Probably the mark III too, but there's no equivalent.

For omnis I'm making the omni particle, Akan 600, omni thermo cannon, and omni ion blaster as the standard. All are one level above their base weapon and have firerate 15 to its firerate 10.

And I guess I get to make up fragment and missile rules for myself from scratch.