Yeah, it's hard to get a hyperion, it should be non-military. While we're at it, heavy iocrym plate can be simply impossible to get. It should be sold in some shop in heratic. Same for the QAC.
...WTF?
A hyperion is not a necessity. Not always being able to get one for credits is not game breaking.
As far as civilian use goes, have you ever seen a decent supply of military reactor fuel before St Kats? No. Those reactors aren't used there. Outer realm stations all l have military WEAPONS, forget reactors.
kay.py has it right anyway: Stations wouldn't use higher tech reactors, they'd use larger scale reactors.
All reactors should be non-military
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Aury
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Gamplay-wise:
Teratons suck: their prices suck, and their payouts suck. and don't get me started on how picky they are as to what they will buy. I just kill them, sell their weapons to other teratons, wrinse & repeat, and save a couple teratons to sell ares junk to.
Ringers require you to farm ferians or mine yourself in order to get any significant income; mining should never be mandatory, nor should farming friendlies (which includes farming teratons).
Basically, the only way to get enough rins to buy a hyperion suck; they require farming massive amounts of friendlies (both of which can reduce you to a rather toasty cinder if you arn't careful), or mining.
And hyperions are necessary as they have no equivalents; unlike the QAC, which sucks anyways & is a quest reward with plenty of superior alternatives, or iocrym armor, because there are plenty of alternative armors to pick from. The only altenative to a hyperion is a vastly inferior reactor (putting out a comparatively misearble 50% of the power)
Environment-wise:
If you look at the factory stations, they actually are not that big (despite having a large image size); cramming ten Nova 100's and the infrastructure needed to store all the fuel they would use, and the higher rate of consumption due to lower effeciency, they would take up far more valuable space, and cost just as much after infrastructure & pruchase costs alone as a pair of koshiba's. When you get the to fuel purchase, transport & storage costs (paying for having such a massive fuel storage facility), they would be simply astronomical, to the point that I doon't see how they would be able to turn a profit, even buying fuel in bulk.
Far more economical to stick with a pair of koshibas; much smaller, and you can buy some pteracnium in bulk which will fit nicely into a small space. Hyperions would be even better, but the delivery costs and time could end up being prohibitive for an initial investment.
Teratons suck: their prices suck, and their payouts suck. and don't get me started on how picky they are as to what they will buy. I just kill them, sell their weapons to other teratons, wrinse & repeat, and save a couple teratons to sell ares junk to.
Ringers require you to farm ferians or mine yourself in order to get any significant income; mining should never be mandatory, nor should farming friendlies (which includes farming teratons).
Basically, the only way to get enough rins to buy a hyperion suck; they require farming massive amounts of friendlies (both of which can reduce you to a rather toasty cinder if you arn't careful), or mining.
And hyperions are necessary as they have no equivalents; unlike the QAC, which sucks anyways & is a quest reward with plenty of superior alternatives, or iocrym armor, because there are plenty of alternative armors to pick from. The only altenative to a hyperion is a vastly inferior reactor (putting out a comparatively misearble 50% of the power)
Environment-wise:
If you look at the factory stations, they actually are not that big (despite having a large image size); cramming ten Nova 100's and the infrastructure needed to store all the fuel they would use, and the higher rate of consumption due to lower effeciency, they would take up far more valuable space, and cost just as much after infrastructure & pruchase costs alone as a pair of koshiba's. When you get the to fuel purchase, transport & storage costs (paying for having such a massive fuel storage facility), they would be simply astronomical, to the point that I doon't see how they would be able to turn a profit, even buying fuel in bulk.
Far more economical to stick with a pair of koshibas; much smaller, and you can buy some pteracnium in bulk which will fit nicely into a small space. Hyperions would be even better, but the delivery costs and time could end up being prohibitive for an initial investment.
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Would that same argument apply for a 2 GW reactor? 4 GW? 1TW? And sure, there are plenty of other armors, but heavy iocrym plate is MORE than twice as good at the next best! Vastly inferior to incredible is still good.
A koshiba 500 can power any level X weapon and almost any shield at the same time. The only setups it can't power are harder to get than the hyperion itself!
Sure, there's no replacement. But at that point it's like arguing about whether you should use the lamplighter or a mere IFC to take out charon. IT DOESN'T MATTER. You can happily beat the game with either. Anything beyond that point can be treated like quest items: Lots of effort for an out of level reward.
If you want rins, repair ares positron cannons, loot the CSC europa's weapon vault, let teratons experiment on you, sell ore from the kill polar freighter missions, or just slaughter stuff until you get intact weapons. Earning enough rins for a hyperion isn't hard. Farming for more after that does get harder, but choices are an intended part of the game. Being forced to pick and choose what you want isn't a game flaw, it's good design.
A koshiba 500 can power any level X weapon and almost any shield at the same time. The only setups it can't power are harder to get than the hyperion itself!
Sure, there's no replacement. But at that point it's like arguing about whether you should use the lamplighter or a mere IFC to take out charon. IT DOESN'T MATTER. You can happily beat the game with either. Anything beyond that point can be treated like quest items: Lots of effort for an out of level reward.
If you want rins, repair ares positron cannons, loot the CSC europa's weapon vault, let teratons experiment on you, sell ore from the kill polar freighter missions, or just slaughter stuff until you get intact weapons. Earning enough rins for a hyperion isn't hard. Farming for more after that does get harder, but choices are an intended part of the game. Being forced to pick and choose what you want isn't a game flaw, it's good design.
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Aury
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Sure, you /can/ run some of the setups, but they will drain your reactor so fast its not funny. And the amount of heavy pteracnium you would have to have (terrible for the wolfen, as it would make it go really slow), would be very annoying too. Koshibas & below don't use hadron fuel cells.
And you end up with little to no wattage left to spare for other things like patch arms/spiders, drive upgrades, etc.
Pteracnium megadrive itself is 200MW, for example.
And no, the hyperion now is harder to get than some of those setups.
You can't 'happily beat the game' if you run out of fuel, for the record.
I presume you play the freighter, or at the very least the sapphire. Which both have plenty of cargo room, the sapphire being able to spare the slot for the hold. On the wolfen you WILL be cutting it very close.
Also:
repairing positron cannons is out of the question, because it wastes longzhus
CSC europa may have bad loot in the weapons vault
teraton experiments can fail, even if you have the autodoc
farming enemies for weapons is usually not very economical; especially when you're running a koshiba to begin with.
blowing up stations & hoping for good loot still requires getting lucky
Scrappy game mechanics are not good game design.
And for the record, light iocrym actually isn't all that it is trumped up to be. Sure, it has somewhat higher resists, but its got less HP than either octocarbide or heavy ithalium, both of which have specific boosted resists as well, and are easily repaired, unlike light iocrym.
And you end up with little to no wattage left to spare for other things like patch arms/spiders, drive upgrades, etc.
Pteracnium megadrive itself is 200MW, for example.
And no, the hyperion now is harder to get than some of those setups.
You can't 'happily beat the game' if you run out of fuel, for the record.
I presume you play the freighter, or at the very least the sapphire. Which both have plenty of cargo room, the sapphire being able to spare the slot for the hold. On the wolfen you WILL be cutting it very close.
Also:
repairing positron cannons is out of the question, because it wastes longzhus
CSC europa may have bad loot in the weapons vault
teraton experiments can fail, even if you have the autodoc
farming enemies for weapons is usually not very economical; especially when you're running a koshiba to begin with.
blowing up stations & hoping for good loot still requires getting lucky
Scrappy game mechanics are not good game design.
And for the record, light iocrym actually isn't all that it is trumped up to be. Sure, it has somewhat higher resists, but its got less HP than either octocarbide or heavy ithalium, both of which have specific boosted resists as well, and are easily repaired, unlike light iocrym.
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Aury
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Oh, and lastly, how does it hurt to make them non-military?
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The reactors that stations use might be simply the wrong shape, or maybe the connectors are different. After all the tonnage of each station may be greater in orders of magnitude compared to the playerships (think aircraft carrier compared to a rowboat). The Hyperion is just the most powerful and advance for it's size, not the most powerful at all, I can see St. Victoria running Linear-style reactors that in no way, shape or form could fit in a personal spacecraft.
Only way that's true is if you don't use anything else.Amilir wrote:A koshiba 500 can power any level X weapon and almost any shield at the same time. The only setups it can't power are harder to get than the hyperion itself!
So let's talk shields.
Taikon-200: 190mw
Jotun: 300mw at full power
Kaidun: 200mw
Iocrym Veil: 220mw
That's all the level 9 or 10 shields except the Nephren X1, which is a no go for the endgame because of plasma vulnerability. So that's at least 190mw for the shield. Then there's weapons.
Lamplighter: 200mw
EI plasma cannon: 300mw
Advanced tritium cannon: 200mw
Kytryn blaster: 200mw
Heavy ion blaster: 200mw
Positron lancer: 350mw
Iocrym fracture cannon: 300mw
and Wolfy likes the IM90: 300mw.
There is the Ares positron cannon at 100mw, but it's 100mw for a reason: if it deserves to be level 9 it's by the barest of margins. Some of the high end level 8 weapons are better. Other than that and the omni ion blaster, which as an omni has terrible damage output for its level, that's all the level 9 or 10 weapons. Well, except the Ares plasma cannon, but that draws enough power to overload a koshiba on its own and is outperformed by level 8 stuff.
But aren't we forgetting other devices? Suppose we're in a freighter or sapphire. Those need drive upgrades to save the research stations. That's another 200mw for the top drive. That's uncommon, which is pretty common given the small number of high level devices that are more common than that. That's 590mw at a minimum. Reactor efficiency plummets when you redline them, and that'll redline an enhanced koshiba. If you're not lucky with heliotrope fuel you can't run it at all.
That's before you get into things like longreach autocannons or patcher arms or spiders or missile launchers or whatnot.
And remember, you might not get the Taikon-200 and have to settle for a Veil or Kaidun. There goes your margin -- and then some, because life support eats power too.
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Aury
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True; stations could be using massive combined linear reactors that simply would not be easily dissassembled and converted for use on small ships; however, the economics behind fuel consumption & size of the reactors remain; you can only go so large, and so linear, before it simply becomes to big of a money sink to avoid going with the larger initial investment for the lower operating cost.
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Aury
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Adding to what Atarlost said; (in relation to what I was saying ealier about the QAC being useless)
As to the four viable shields, the Jotun is underpowered and should be avoided like the Nephren X1, the Veil is nice against human ships, but loses its nice bonuses against iocrym Tier 4/5 weapons (and is lacking in the HP department), the Kaidan has terrible regen (to the point a centauri recoiless can take it down, given the time), and the Taikon has less-than-phenominal HP, like the Veil.
Level VIII & below shields are out of the question.
Lazarus is broken atm, because its HP is too low; it can be taken out by the iocrym in a lucky roll & you will be disintigrated.
Basically, whatever shield you have, you will in all likelyhood have to enhance it, or have a full set of light iocrym in order to not get disentigrated. Thus longzhu's are essential, considering that you may find... only a couple of diamond rings each game, tops. Molbidium & intuition only get you so far (+30%, & +20% respectively, and intuition is risky, because it can give you +efficient, which while it will help you get a slightly larger margin for running on a koshiba, it won't help you vs. the iocrym.) - you'll need a few longzhu's for your shields in all likelyhood; the Taikon 200 doesn't need much, given its high resistance, and mediocre base HP which easily expands to something respectable for fighting the ICS. The Kaidun needs a lot, since HP is all it has, the Jotun... needs all it can get, simply since it really is that bad, and the veil will need all it can get, since it is so low on HP.
Thus the low-energy QAC which eats longzhus for ammo is pretty much not a viable solution.
And even if it were, you need all the charges you can get from the longzhus to kill the ICS, and thus you can't use it in normal combat, rendering it dead weight on your ship until you fight the ICS.
As to the four viable shields, the Jotun is underpowered and should be avoided like the Nephren X1, the Veil is nice against human ships, but loses its nice bonuses against iocrym Tier 4/5 weapons (and is lacking in the HP department), the Kaidan has terrible regen (to the point a centauri recoiless can take it down, given the time), and the Taikon has less-than-phenominal HP, like the Veil.
Level VIII & below shields are out of the question.
Lazarus is broken atm, because its HP is too low; it can be taken out by the iocrym in a lucky roll & you will be disintigrated.
Basically, whatever shield you have, you will in all likelyhood have to enhance it, or have a full set of light iocrym in order to not get disentigrated. Thus longzhu's are essential, considering that you may find... only a couple of diamond rings each game, tops. Molbidium & intuition only get you so far (+30%, & +20% respectively, and intuition is risky, because it can give you +efficient, which while it will help you get a slightly larger margin for running on a koshiba, it won't help you vs. the iocrym.) - you'll need a few longzhu's for your shields in all likelyhood; the Taikon 200 doesn't need much, given its high resistance, and mediocre base HP which easily expands to something respectable for fighting the ICS. The Kaidun needs a lot, since HP is all it has, the Jotun... needs all it can get, simply since it really is that bad, and the veil will need all it can get, since it is so low on HP.
Thus the low-energy QAC which eats longzhus for ammo is pretty much not a viable solution.
And even if it were, you need all the charges you can get from the longzhus to kill the ICS, and thus you can't use it in normal combat, rendering it dead weight on your ship until you fight the ICS.
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I'd argue that the Hyperion isn't an issue anyway- you mainly get it from the Ringers, and they don't care if you are military or not.
Its the 500MW mark that is hard- the only guaranteed way to get one is via the CSCs, and pretty much all the shops at that stage of the game *do* pay attention to your status.
I'd still say it ought to be military, but there may be other ways to mitigate its rarity.
Its the 500MW mark that is hard- the only guaranteed way to get one is via the CSCs, and pretty much all the shops at that stage of the game *do* pay attention to your status.
I'd still say it ought to be military, but there may be other ways to mitigate its rarity.
"Level VIII & below shields are out of the question. "
See? There's that obsession with high level equipment again. Shields I've beaten the ICS with? Lazarus +150%, R9, plasma, invincible +50%, heavy meteorsteel. What's wrong with those? Same for the megadrive. Like hell you need one even in a freighter. A titan gives you wolfen class speed. Sure, you can't fit the BEST setups on an unenhanced koshiba, but insisting you need them is ridiculous. As I was saying, do you have to have heavy iocrym plate to beat the game? The lamplighter? An enhanced taikon-200? Absolutely not.
How does it hurt to make it non-military? It doesn't. It DOES hurt to give it to the commonwealth, to a mail-order outpost at that. The hyperion isn't within the commonwealth's capabilities, and giving a piece of equipment the military doesn't have to a mere corporate outpost borders on ridiculous.
See? There's that obsession with high level equipment again. Shields I've beaten the ICS with? Lazarus +150%, R9, plasma, invincible +50%, heavy meteorsteel. What's wrong with those? Same for the megadrive. Like hell you need one even in a freighter. A titan gives you wolfen class speed. Sure, you can't fit the BEST setups on an unenhanced koshiba, but insisting you need them is ridiculous. As I was saying, do you have to have heavy iocrym plate to beat the game? The lamplighter? An enhanced taikon-200? Absolutely not.
How does it hurt to make it non-military? It doesn't. It DOES hurt to give it to the commonwealth, to a mail-order outpost at that. The hyperion isn't within the commonwealth's capabilities, and giving a piece of equipment the military doesn't have to a mere corporate outpost borders on ridiculous.
The problem is the rare game when Ringer shipyards do not spawn, then the only other way to get a military Hyperion is through fabrication, and given the Hyperion's veryrare tag, that is a gamble. You may get lucky and get one after a few attempts, or you reroll the megadrive dozens of times before you get a Hyperion (or run out of resources first). Of course, no Ringer shipyard means no level X devices on your ship except for Taikon tech and the Lamplighter. No shipyard means no Iocrym Plate for your ship too.
This falls into the category of extremely unlucky.
It is possible not not find a targeting rom before you can order one at the trade depot, or find enough military outposts to get sufficient rank to get the lamplighter, or not have enough sung to spawn to be able to befriend the huari, or....
There are ample opportunities to win the game. If one path is closed to you, adapt. If you can't adapt, you fail. Restart and try again. That is what a roguelike is all about.
Making all the equipment easy to get reduces the difficulty and replay value. If I could play the game time and time again and get all the best equipment every game and dominate everyone all the way through every time, I would have stopped playing this game after a month.
It is possible not not find a targeting rom before you can order one at the trade depot, or find enough military outposts to get sufficient rank to get the lamplighter, or not have enough sung to spawn to be able to befriend the huari, or....
There are ample opportunities to win the game. If one path is closed to you, adapt. If you can't adapt, you fail. Restart and try again. That is what a roguelike is all about.
Making all the equipment easy to get reduces the difficulty and replay value. If I could play the game time and time again and get all the best equipment every game and dominate everyone all the way through every time, I would have stopped playing this game after a month.
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A Turret defense genre mod exploring the worst era in Earth's history.
Can you defend the Earth from the Syrtian invaders?
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Aury
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@Kay.py - I skip the 500MW most of the time... because I get a mail order hyperion.
@Amilir - fighting the iocrym then, is not fighting the iocrym now. Lots of things have been reballanced. If these all were recent playthroughs, you must have had som super-human piloting skills or got damn lucky. Or died, and you are conveniently leaving that out.
Lzarus: uses too much power for a 500MW. And it's level X anyways. Have you even been paying attention to your own argument?
R9: perhapse it would work, given it does have 400HP and it would go nicely with some longzhus now, but it still uses lots of power comparitvely speaking, 150MW IIRC
plasma: You're really pushing it there. Possible with longzhus, but I'd rather not.
invincible +anything: not happening any more. Not after the shield nef.
Heavy meteorsteel: Have fun avoiding the lobsters in that stuff. I'd have gotten the worldship; more HP & better resists.
Look, I'm not going to argue about this any more with you. You want miilitary grade reactors after 1.03? Make a mod.
Military tag comes off, that's final.
You have provided only evidence that the harm by having it military is somewhat mitigated by various factors & options, none of which are highly viable, and have completely failed to show how the game would be harmed by having them non-military.
@Prophet:
1) you can get the req. military rank with a single military CSC, IIRC
2) QAC is broken; needs to be rebalanced first
3) point is, you can /get/ the targeting rom (though I will usually just give up & restart if I don't have one pre-charon, unless I get a level V particle weapon, or anything level VI+)
4) There are a number of other level X/IX/VIII weapons aside from the QAC which will kill the io-creme; lamplighter & QAC are not the only options.
5) reactors are a differenct story; it's hyperion vs. koshiba, unlike its essentially every viable X/IX/VIII weapon/shield/armor against eachother. And koshiba is really pushing the limits.
As long as you can get at least any of the various weapons/shields/armors that will work, and there are plenty that you have a chance to get, you'll be fine.
Reactors? No. It's either hyperion, or koshiba. End of story. Vanilla has only a single line of reactors to pick from.
There is a difference between being locked out of one thing yet having at least several other working options, to being locked out of something, and the only alternative doesn't work, that would be a "Blocker" type situation. However, here you /might/ be able to get by. Emphasis on /might/. Not enough to safely term it a blocker-level issue, but enough that it's still a rather problematic issue.
I would like to see someone not kill a single friendly to obtain enough rins to get a hyperion in a fashion that does not involve farming ares to the stupidly ridiculous extent I had. Which would likely be really hard on a koshiba anyways. Especially since I got ~60-70% of my rins that game from APA's. That's 100,000 rins. Possible perhapse, but its going to be insanely hard, and I'm not going to envy who has to do it.
Also, having all paths closed off is also not an option. There is a "blocker" priority tag on the tracker for a reason. At no point does george actually want to create a truly un-winnable situation. So even that theory goes out the window.
I like the idea of having some things impossible to get one playthrough, and some others the next; hell, I'm planning on it in my dvalin re-work, and I'm planning on it in TX2; both player-driven lockouts & rng-driven lockouts. Even some timer-driven lockouts. However, each time the player gets locked out of one option, another option will either open, or remain there; it will always be possible for the player to choose to pursue a course of action that will allow them to safely escape the quarantine zone (which in TX2, is not mandatory to begin with) without doing it by a narrow of a margin as the skin of their neck. All the while leaving an option open for every playstyle; miners can mine; no problems there, given there will be plenty of rich grounds outside the boarderlands - traders... can trade; again, this is perhapse the easiest way to get huge buckets of cash. Everyone else has a myraid number of ways to get stuff, and will never be forced to have to clean out every single system, blowing up every single enemy and looting them, though if they want to do that, who am I to stop them? There will always be options open to pursue whatever campaign or lack of a campaign the player wants to do, while retaining the re-play value through all the things you didn't get to see and do this time around. But I can afford to do that; TX2 uses a much larger region of play, with many more factions with their own developed story-arcs, and their own developed product lines, and plenty of various things to pick and choose from; D&O however can't do this that drastically. Some paths are going to have to be required to stay open & viable, simply since they have no good alternatives.
@Amilir - fighting the iocrym then, is not fighting the iocrym now. Lots of things have been reballanced. If these all were recent playthroughs, you must have had som super-human piloting skills or got damn lucky. Or died, and you are conveniently leaving that out.
Lzarus: uses too much power for a 500MW. And it's level X anyways. Have you even been paying attention to your own argument?
R9: perhapse it would work, given it does have 400HP and it would go nicely with some longzhus now, but it still uses lots of power comparitvely speaking, 150MW IIRC
plasma: You're really pushing it there. Possible with longzhus, but I'd rather not.
invincible +anything: not happening any more. Not after the shield nef.
Heavy meteorsteel: Have fun avoiding the lobsters in that stuff. I'd have gotten the worldship; more HP & better resists.
Look, I'm not going to argue about this any more with you. You want miilitary grade reactors after 1.03? Make a mod.
Military tag comes off, that's final.
You have provided only evidence that the harm by having it military is somewhat mitigated by various factors & options, none of which are highly viable, and have completely failed to show how the game would be harmed by having them non-military.
@Prophet:
1) you can get the req. military rank with a single military CSC, IIRC
2) QAC is broken; needs to be rebalanced first
3) point is, you can /get/ the targeting rom (though I will usually just give up & restart if I don't have one pre-charon, unless I get a level V particle weapon, or anything level VI+)
4) There are a number of other level X/IX/VIII weapons aside from the QAC which will kill the io-creme; lamplighter & QAC are not the only options.
5) reactors are a differenct story; it's hyperion vs. koshiba, unlike its essentially every viable X/IX/VIII weapon/shield/armor against eachother. And koshiba is really pushing the limits.
As long as you can get at least any of the various weapons/shields/armors that will work, and there are plenty that you have a chance to get, you'll be fine.
Reactors? No. It's either hyperion, or koshiba. End of story. Vanilla has only a single line of reactors to pick from.
There is a difference between being locked out of one thing yet having at least several other working options, to being locked out of something, and the only alternative doesn't work, that would be a "Blocker" type situation. However, here you /might/ be able to get by. Emphasis on /might/. Not enough to safely term it a blocker-level issue, but enough that it's still a rather problematic issue.
I would like to see someone not kill a single friendly to obtain enough rins to get a hyperion in a fashion that does not involve farming ares to the stupidly ridiculous extent I had. Which would likely be really hard on a koshiba anyways. Especially since I got ~60-70% of my rins that game from APA's. That's 100,000 rins. Possible perhapse, but its going to be insanely hard, and I'm not going to envy who has to do it.
Also, having all paths closed off is also not an option. There is a "blocker" priority tag on the tracker for a reason. At no point does george actually want to create a truly un-winnable situation. So even that theory goes out the window.
I like the idea of having some things impossible to get one playthrough, and some others the next; hell, I'm planning on it in my dvalin re-work, and I'm planning on it in TX2; both player-driven lockouts & rng-driven lockouts. Even some timer-driven lockouts. However, each time the player gets locked out of one option, another option will either open, or remain there; it will always be possible for the player to choose to pursue a course of action that will allow them to safely escape the quarantine zone (which in TX2, is not mandatory to begin with) without doing it by a narrow of a margin as the skin of their neck. All the while leaving an option open for every playstyle; miners can mine; no problems there, given there will be plenty of rich grounds outside the boarderlands - traders... can trade; again, this is perhapse the easiest way to get huge buckets of cash. Everyone else has a myraid number of ways to get stuff, and will never be forced to have to clean out every single system, blowing up every single enemy and looting them, though if they want to do that, who am I to stop them? There will always be options open to pursue whatever campaign or lack of a campaign the player wants to do, while retaining the re-play value through all the things you didn't get to see and do this time around. But I can afford to do that; TX2 uses a much larger region of play, with many more factions with their own developed story-arcs, and their own developed product lines, and plenty of various things to pick and choose from; D&O however can't do this that drastically. Some paths are going to have to be required to stay open & viable, simply since they have no good alternatives.
(shpOrder gPlayership 'barrelRoll)
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