Commonwealth v. Ares, Who Would Win?

[Aury]

It will not automatically target stations that cannot shoot. It can attack them if it is explicitly ordered using (shpOrder 'attack theStation)

[sun1404]

I see. Never knew this before.

[Watch TV, Do Nothing]

Is the CW/Ares war intended to echo the Russo-Japanese war, or is the similarity accidental?

[TVR]

The Corporate Hierarchy is only interested in one thing: Profit.

They have nothing to gain from sending their own corporate assets and employees into a long and bloody war against the Ares.

They can, however, profit enormously from the Commonwealth's willingness to do just that through lucrative defence contracts, and will continue to do so as long as the war continues.

The Ranx Empire would have very little interest in entering the conflict either. According to the official Ranx extension, the Ranx Empire was founded by CW pteracnium miners in the Outer Realm due to their disgust for the Ringers' use of Ferian slaves in contravention of CW law, something that should have been rightfully embargoed. I think it is safe to assume that the average citizen of the Ranx Empire would consider the Ares to be neohuman scum like the Ringers, and any sort of diplomatic relation would likely be limited to a non-aggression pact at best.

While it's true that the CW is by far the largest stellar empire in 2419, and that there is plenty of shipyard capacity available, it is not true that the CW could fight a large-scale war in a foreign theater for an extended period of time.

The Ares-Commonwealth War has lasted over a hundred years, and it's fairly clear that it has taken its toll on the CW. Several hostile factions, notably the Charon Pirates and Sung Empire, have sprung up in Commonwealth Territories, near and even within the capital system. The Fleet has considered the destruction of several Ares Communes and the killing of millions of Ares civilians to constitute a major military victory. Keep in mind that the original reason to pursue the Ares Sect into deep space was to bring their leadership to justice for their nuclear holocaust of Earth Sphere.

As it is, the CW is running out of rins to buy new weapons with and trained personnel to operate them. Admiral Decker has bet almost everything on the development of a new superweapon to end the war. Unfortunately, the Lamplighter is not that. The Lamplighter, less effective than the EI plasma cannon and even the TeV 9 and Katana in some regards, is essentially just a propaganda ploy to try and rebuild the Fleet's shattered morale.

The CW does not stand to lose much by withdrawing the Fleet from the Outer Realm. All the CSCs will remain intact. Pteracnium would still be available from the Ringers. The few CW colonies in the sector could be abandoned in favor of the overwhelming majority in the New Beyond and Ungoverned Territories. At least one faction in the Ares has even offered a peace agreement. Really, the only thing that keeps them from withdrawing is belief that all those died during the war would have died for nothing if the Ares are not defeated.

Well, it's also possible to claim that without pressure in the Outer Realm, the Ares would begin pressing into CW space. The public outrage that would result in that scenario against the Ares would be more than enough to mobilize the entire CW and completely turn the war around faster than the Earth-Syrtis War, possibly with the same end result.

Given plentiful weaponry, internal dissent, and no foreign enemy to unite against, more likely to occur on the CW withdrawal would be an Ares Civil War. Maybe, just maybe, enough Ares citizens have realized that their leadership have been subverting every single facet of their so-called utopia for hundreds of years. Genetically engineered or not, they may have finally realized that war never changes.

[Watch TV, Do Nothing]

According to the official Ranx extension, the Ranx Empire was founded by CW pteracnium miners in the Outer Realm due to their disgust for the Ringers' use of Ferian slaves in contravention of CW law, something that should have been rightfully embargoed.

Is this why the CW hasn't taken serious action against the Sung? They can't whip up public sentiment against slavery without alienating the Ringers?

[george moromisato]

According to the official Ranx extension, the Ranx Empire was founded by CW pteracnium miners in the Outer Realm due to their disgust for the Ringers' use of Ferian slaves in contravention of CW law, something that should have been rightfully embargoed.

Is this why the CW hasn't taken serious action against the Sung? They can't whip up public sentiment against slavery without alienating the Ringers?

First, a disclaimer: the Official Ranx Extension has not yet been released, so is not yet canonical--it may change.

That said, I suspect the CW is split on the issue. Ferians are zoanthropes--genetically engineered to have sub-human intelligence. Some people think they should still have full human rights; others disagree. As you might expect, most people in the CW don't care, but there is a vocal minority that really really cares.

Moreover, the Ranx have special incentive to hate the Ringers since they compete for the same asteroid fields. To the Ranx, the Ferians are an unfair advantage, and it is natural for them to see it as morally wrong.

Sung slavers forcibly take fully intelligent humans and imprison them in slave coffins to exploit their compute power. Nobody in the CW supports what they do--they just don't want to fight a war against the Sung (since they're still fighting the Ares). Also, the Sung are smart enough to not take (too many) slaves from the big powers (CW and CH), that's why they target the Huari (and other lesser powers).

[Watch TV, Do Nothing]

According to the official Ranx extension, the Ranx Empire was founded by CW pteracnium miners in the Outer Realm due to their disgust for the Ringers' use of Ferian slaves in contravention of CW law, something that should have been rightfully embargoed.

Is this why the CW hasn't taken serious action against the Sung? They can't whip up public sentiment against slavery without alienating the Ringers?

First, a disclaimer: the Official Ranx Extension has not yet been released, so is not yet canonical--it may change.

That said, I suspect the CW is split on the issue. Ferians are zoanthropes--genetically engineered to have sub-human intelligence. Some people think they should still have full human rights; others disagree. As you might expect, most people in the CW don't care, but there is a vocal minority that really really cares.

Moreover, the Ranx have special incentive to hate the Ringers since they compete for the same asteroid fields. To the Ranx, the Ferians are an unfair advantage, and it is natural for them to see it as morally wrong.

Sung slavers forcibly take fully intelligent humans and imprison them in slave coffins to exploit their compute power. Nobody in the CW supports what they do--they just don't want to fight a war against the Sung (since they're still fighting the Ares). Also, the Sung are smart enough to not take (too many) slaves from the big powers (CW and CH), that's why they target the Huari (and other lesser powers).

Who are the Ranx's trading partners? It would seem like the sheer size of the Commonwealth would make it the most attractive market for their pteracnium, provided that A) the CW-Ringer relationship could be disrupted, B) Ranx sovereignty and independence were guaranteed- something that would undermine the CW's pretension to representing all unaltered humanity, and C) Ares incursions into Ranx space could be prevented.

How exactly does the Ringer-Ferian relationship work? Are all the hives you encounter in-game tributary to the Ringers in some fashion? Do Ferian warriors constitute part of the Ringers' defensive strategy?

[george moromisato]

Who are the Ranx's trading partners? It would seem like the sheer size of the Commonwealth would make it the most attractive market for their pteracnium, provided that A) the CW-Ringer relationship could be disrupted, B) Ranx sovereignty and independence were guaranteed- something that would undermine the CW's pretension to representing all unaltered humanity, and C) Ares incursions into Ranx space could be prevented.

How exactly does the Ringer-Ferian relationship work? Are all the hives you encounter in-game tributary to the Ringers in some fashion? Do Ferian warriors constitute part of the Ringers' defensive strategy?

Ranx-Commonwealth trade sounds logical. Maybe that's something for a future adventure: a Commonwealth (or CH) fleet attempts to open up trade with the Ranx. Perhaps factions on both sides have reasons for sabotaging such a relationship.

As for Ringer-Ferians, we haven't completely worked it out. I think Ferians are somewhat independent--able to organize themselves and reproduce on their own. But Ringers are able to influence them through various physiological and psychological techniques, the way humans can (e.g.) influence dogs by exploiting their alpha hierarchy. We also have not worked out the origin of Ferians (that I remember). Who created them?

[Watch TV, Do Nothing]

As for Ringer-Ferians, we haven't completely worked it out. I think Ferians are somewhat independent--able to organize themselves and reproduce on their own. But Ringers are able to influence them through various physiological and psychological techniques, the way humans can (e.g.) influence dogs by exploiting their alpha hierarchy. We also have not worked out the origin of Ferians (that I remember). Who created them?

Teratons seems logical, they wouldn't have any ethical aversion to creating liminal entities like ferians. Created as a Teraton project, the Ringers "liberate" them and propagate them across the Outer Realm similar to how Russia populated Siberia (or how Captain van Toch propagated the newts throughout the Pacific, if you've read War with the Newts). Maybe the Dwarg's zoanthropes are descended from Ferians obtained through slave raiding?

[TVR]

Ferians are zoanthropes--genetically engineered to have sub-human intelligence. Some people think they should still have full human rights; others disagree.

A zoanthrope's IQ can't be less than 30-50. Asteriod mining is no easy feat, and they appear to be able to communicate in speech.

Sung slavers forcibly take fully intelligent humans and imprison them in slave coffins to exploit their compute power.

Don't forget about the organ harvesting. Who could forget about the organ harvesting.

Ranx-Commonwealth trade sounds logical. Maybe that's something for a future adventure: a Commonwealth (or CH) fleet attempts to open up trade with the Ranx. Perhaps factions on both sides have reasons for sabotaging such a relationship.

But until then, Ranx pteracnium will continue to go to the Ares, Sung, and Xenophobes. This arrangement is probably hated within the empire, but necessary for enemies of the CW and Ringers.

Interestingly enough, the Ranx Empire does not seem to have committed any atrocities against the CW. Then again, Ranx was descended from and supposed to be a trade union for CW citizens, not the military dictatorship it became.

We also have not worked out the origin of Ferians (that I remember). Who created them?

There are only 3 neohuman factions skilled in genetic engineering: the Ringers, Teratons, and Ares. One of them must be responsible, unless the CW or CH have a top secret genetic experimentation and biological weapons division. Given that I have once seen a cadaver for sale at Taikon Ventures... and I strongly suspect the CW is not as innocent as it seems, either or both are extremely plausible.

[Aury]

The Ranx dislike the Ares too - always have. Sung... unlikely, as they are slavers as well, and generally aren't too popular. Xenophobes... also unlikely, as they hate everyone.

The Ranx mine a huge amount for themselves (Especially to create their monstrous Super Dreadnoughts), and there are others in the area who might be open to trade - Omnithor or Ventari for example.

[FourFire]

This thread is facinating: truly the most in depth serious discussion I have seen on canon and lore in this community.

[Transcendi]

Let's make a table of powers:
Name # Rarity # Usual damage type # Usual level of armor # Production # !!Science!! # Friends # Enemies # Backbone # Superweapon

Commonwealth # Common (2/3 of human space) # ion, particle # 7-8 # Huge # Poor # Corporation, Ringers # All other # Centurion # CSC
Corporation # Everywhere # thermo, ion # 8-10 # Huge # Extremaly huge (ramissier, makayev...) # Commonwealth, # Ringers(?) # Neutral # Corporate cruiser? # Corporate cruiser?
Sung # Rare (1/2 of human space) # particle # 5-6 # Poor # Poor # ? # Neutral # Sung slaves # Their ship
Dwarg # Rare # Ion/EMP, Blast # 5-7 # ? # ? # ? # ? # ?# Behemoth?
Urak # Common at 1 part # Blast # 7-8 # Medium # Nope # ? # Everyone
Ringers # Uncommon # Plasma # 8-10 # ? # Huge # Commonwealth # Ares

Urak can easily survive in second part of the human space. They are hard target to destroy and they are the ones who usually destroy commonwealth/corporate stations.

So, total power:
1. Corporation/Ringers
2. Urak/Commonwealth
Urak is less common than commonwealth, but stronger.

Pretty sure you don't mean Urak. They are a level 3-4 power approximately equivalent to the outlaw miners.
Do you mean Xenophobes or have the Urak been changed in CC?

Also, the Sung are smart enough to not take (too many) slaves from the big powers (CW and CH), that's why they target the Huari (and other lesser powers).

I've always found it odd that the Huari would be considered weak given their enormously powerful ships (one could happily wipe out an Earth Slaver and a large escort force without taking damage).

These are not perfect values (I think it is under-estimating the Phobos and over-estimating the Aquila), but they are still an interesting data points.

Those numbers are very odd. How are they calculated?
Because a standard CSC has 216 particle dps while a Phobos has 225 plasma dps plus 128 sustained ion dps (more in bursts of course).
Wouldn't the Phobos have at least double the attack rating of the Deimos?

[Aury]

The Hauri are few in number, meaning that they might have ships that can blow away an equivalent number of sung earth slavers, but the sung can shrug and just send in more. The sung have reserves (like the Ares with their clones). The Hauri are few in number and population and have lost much of their infrastructure. They can't replace their ships or people like the sung can.

It's a similar situation with the Fleet vs. Ares - the Ares have reserves, the CW fleet is struggling to maintain a presence in the outer realms.

[Jay2Jay]

The Hauri are few in number, meaning that they might have ships that can blow away an equivalent number of sung earth slavers, but the sung can shrug and just send in more. The sung have reserves (like the Ares with their clones). The Hauri are few in number and population and have lost much of their infrastructure. They can't replace their ships or people like the sung can.

It's a similar situation with the Fleet vs. Ares - the Ares have reserves, the CW fleet is struggling to maintain a presence in the outer realms.

Reminds me of an old Chinese proverb (Paraphrasing). "One bushel of your enemy's wheat is worth twenty of your own." -Sun Tzu from The Art of War